All things CoronaVirus

[6ftstick]

Unemployment in Germany expected to peak at 5.9%. (Sorry, I lost the link.)

Why? Because the German government, led by the competent Angela Merkel, had a program in place to keep paying most workers during an emergency like this.

No shortage of PPE in Germany. No shortage of hospital beds, ICU beds, or health care workers. Death rate looks to be much lower than in the US (subject to uncertainties in the case numbers).

I said at the beginning that Germany would do much better than in the US, because they, unlike us, have figured out how to run a modern first-world economy as a three-way partnership among government, business, and unions, with enough trust on all sides to make it work.

Well, if I've learned anything in the last month....all these events have made the American right double down. They still think minimal government is the true path.

Despite the trillions in government handouts headed their way.

So we finally got that out of the way. You're not on the American right

[RedFromMI]

Walls are crumbling around the Dems desire to kneecap the economy.

Doctors beginning to come out and say reopen the economy.

https://medium.com/@jbgeach/eight-reaso ... d3a7036301

I don't care if he is a physician - the moment he talks about "protective herd immunity" he is going for a solution that will kill a lot of people - because to get to herd immunity you need about 65% (or more) of the population to get the disease in absence of a vaccine. That is a whale of a lot of deaths that are preventable.

A question many folks are asking. If there is no herd immunity and no vaccine then this virus does not go away? Is there any solution to this or is it inevitable that outbreaks will come back with a vengeance?

You need testing, testing, testing. Both for antibodies to see who has already had it (and hopefully can actually show immunity - not sure "how" immune all patients will be) as well as active infections. Then active monitoring plus contact tracing. And then you have a framework for beginning to open things up. But not necessarily to the pre-virus levels of activity - at least until you actually have a vaccine...

May need masks in public, limits on crowds in stores.

Above is what makes sense.

But Trump is going to use his 'metrics'...when asked what 'metrics', points to his head...

TDS in full effect right there MD, TDS is tearing you apart inside.....take a break. Trump specifically said he was going to surround himself with the brightest in the medical, business, statistical, etc, etc field...but ultimately it is his decision....when he pointed to his head; he is our President, no?

First link that showed up when I googled 'Trump panel to reopen' https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/10/trump-s ... althy.html

It is NOT TDS - it is lack of faith in Trump's competency:

A Times examination reveals the extent of President Trump’s slow response as the virus spread.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/c ... k-73167b75

If he got all that wrong in the past why do we expect anything different?

[a fan]

So we finally got that out of the way. You're not on the American right

Neither are you! Or has your State, fellow workers, your business, your local hospitals, and the businesses you serve NOT gotten virus-related handouts?

This is the second time in the last 12 years the Federal government has had to bailout the private sector, as well as local governments.

What needs to happen for you to catch on that the free market and minimal government doesn't work?

[seacoaster]

Walls are crumbling around the Dems desire to kneecap the economy.

Doctors beginning to come out and say reopen the economy.

https://medium.com/@jbgeach/eight-reaso ... d3a7036301

I don't care if he is a physician - the moment he talks about "protective herd immunity" he is going for a solution that will kill a lot of people - because to get to herd immunity you need about 65% (or more) of the population to get the disease in absence of a vaccine. That is a whale of a lot of deaths that are preventable.

A question many folks are asking. If there is no herd immunity and no vaccine then this virus does not go away? Is there any solution to this or is it inevitable that outbreaks will come back with a vengeance?

You need testing, testing, testing. Both for antibodies to see who has already had it (and hopefully can actually show immunity - not sure "how" immune all patients will be) as well as active infections. Then active monitoring plus contact tracing. And then you have a framework for beginning to open things up. But not necessarily to the pre-virus levels of activity - at least until you actually have a vaccine...

May need masks in public, limits on crowds in stores.

Above is what makes sense.

But Trump is going to use his 'metrics'...when asked what 'metrics', points to his head...

TDS in full effect right there MD, TDS is tearing you apart inside.....take a break. Trump specifically said he was going to surround himself with the brightest in the medical, business, statistical, etc, etc field...but ultimately it is his decision....when he pointed to his head; he is our President, no?

First link that showed up when I googled 'Trump panel to reopen' https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/10/trump-s ... althy.html

"TDS" = Criticism of the President's Leadership and Conduct = Furhrer worte haben Gesetzkraft. Criticism of a political leadership figure is a necessary part of any meaningful government based on popular sovereignty. Is it pollyanna you're after, or slavish support for this substandard person?

[6ftstick]

So we finally got that out of the way. You're not on the American right

Neither are you! Or has your State, fellow workers, your business, your local hospitals, and the businesses you serve NOT gotten virus-related handouts?

This is the second time in the last 12 years the Federal government has had to bailout the private sector, as well as local governments.

What needs to happen for you to catch on that the free market and minimal government doesn't work?

So your saying the private sector is responsible for this. The private sector just threw 17 million people out of work just cause.

The private sector isn't making everything needed in this health care crisis. Ventilators, Masks, PPE?

Private sector hospitals aren't caring for the bulk of the sick?

The private sector isn't developing treatments vaccines and test?

[seacoaster]

Spring Mistake:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/f ... e=Homepage

"You could find Beatriz Diaz at this spring’s Winter Party Festival in Miami Beach, giving out hand sanitizer.

It was early March. She knew the coronavirus was beginning to make its way around the world, but she figured if she kept her hands clean and avoided sweaty people, she would be safe.

“I was thinking, ‘OK, well, hold on, the government did not cancel it, so it should be fine,’” she said.

Within days, reports started popping up on Facebook about a D.J. and several partygoers who were suddenly terribly ill. By the end of the month, two people who attended the festival had died.

As of last week, 38 people had reported that they were symptomatic or had tested positive for the coronavirus in the weeks following the event, according to the organizer, the National L.G.B.T.Q. Task Force. Ms. Diaz was among them.

Weeks before Florida ordered people to stay at home, the coronavirus was well into its insidious spread in the state, infecting residents and visitors who days earlier had danced at beach parties and reveled in theme parks. Only now, as people have gotten sick and recovered from — or succumbed to — Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, has the costly toll of keeping Florida open during the spring break season started to become apparent.

Gov. Ron DeSantis, a Republican, has blamed travelers from New York, Europe and other places for seeding the virus in the state. But the reverse was also true: People got sick in Florida and took the infection back home.

The exact number of people who returned from leisure trips to Florida with the coronavirus may never be known. Cases as far away as California and Massachusetts have been linked to the Winter Party Festival, a beachside dance party and fund-raiser for the L.G.B.T.Q. community held March 4-10. Another California man died after going to Orlando for a conference and then to a packed Disney World. Two people went to Disney and later got relatives sick in Florida and Georgia.

Slow action by Florida’s governor left local leaders scrambling to make their own closure decisions during one of the busiest and most profitable times of the year for a state with an $86 billion tourism economy. The result was that rules were often in conflict, with one city canceling a major event while a neighboring city allowed another event to continue.

The governor, who did not order people to stay home until April 1, has said the state supported local governments that ordered event cancellations and beach closures, but that it was not his role to step in first.

“Let’s have tailored approaches, surgical approaches, that are going to work best for those regions,” Mr. DeSantis said at a news conference on March 24. “These blunt measures — you wouldn’t want to do them on a community where the virus hasn’t spread.”

With little testing available, local officials made decisions blindly. Data that suggested looming trouble, such as rising fever readings from internet-connected thermometers, were ignored, a spokeswoman for Kinsa Health, the company that produces the thermometers, has said.

Only later did the effects become apparent.

Florida has confirmed more than 17,500 coronavirus cases and nearly 400 deaths, with the epidemic still expanding in the state.

A video by the data analytics and visualization company Tectonix showed how cellphones that were on one Fort Lauderdale beach at the beginning of March spread across the country — up the Eastern Seaboard and further West — over the next two weeks.

“At the time, there was still this debate: Should we close public beaches? Should we shut down these big public events?” said Mike DiMarco, the company’s chief marketing officer. “When you actually see it visually on a map like that, it brings a ton of awareness to what that really looks like.”

The first festivalgoer to die was Israel Carrera, a 40-year-old Lyft and Uber driver who spent several days in the hospital in Miami Beach before his death on March 26. His boyfriend, who also attended, got mildly sick and is now making plans to deliver Mr. Carrera’s ashes to his surviving family in Cuba.

Ron Rich, a 65-year-old festival volunteer, died over the weekend of March 28.The decision to hold the festival five weeks ago came at a different point in the crisis, before a single person had tested positive in Miami-Dade County, said Rea Carey, executive director of the National L.G.B.T.Q. Task Force. The event ended the day before the World Health Organization declared the virus a pandemic.

“It points to what we didn’t know at the time,” she said. “If we had had the information that is available now, the information that has become available after Winter Party as this pandemic has played out, we would have made a different decision.”

Photos of the festival show hundreds of people crammed in front of a stage under neon lights, dancing, hugging and practicing little social distancing.

Ms. Diaz, 42, got a fever on March 15. The next day her girlfriend was also sick. By the time Ms. Diaz was confirmed positive for Covid-19, she had been grocery shopping, gone to the pharmacy and spent time with her employer’s 80-year-old father and 14-year-old daughter.

“I understand that was my choice to be there — I take full responsibility for that,” Ms. Diaz, who lives in Wilton Manors, Fla., said of the Winter Party Festival, which drew about 5,500 people and has been a fixture in the L.G.B.T.Q. community for more than 25 years.

“I am really upset for the way it was handled,” she said.

Loc Nguyen, a software developer, felt exhausted from the time he returned home to Los Angeles from the festival on March 9. He went to work the next day but had to call in sick after that, feeling shortness of breath and such terrible shivers that he wrapped himself in three winter jackets to go to the doctor.

“You’re coughing and gasping for air,” Mr. Nguyen said. “You are scared. You can’t breathe.”

His friend who went to the festival with him also tested positive. A third friend got sick but was unable to get a test.

Mr. Nguyen knew the risk of attending, but said he did not want to lose the money he had spent on tickets. He did not blame organizers for holding the festival, and pointed to mixed messages from local officials.

“If one city closes and one city is open, it’s not consistent,” he said. “And therefore you can’t stop this pandemic.”

On March 6, the city of Miami, which is separate from Miami Beach, canceled the Ultra Music Festival, a marquee electronic dance music event that draws tens thousands of people. Other local leaders criticized the action as too drastic: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was not yet recommending mass closures. Florida announced its first confirmed coronavirus case on March 1, but it was in the Tampa area.

“We should live our lives normally,” with public-health safeguards in place, Mayor Carlos Gimenez of Miami-Dade County said on March 5.

By March 12, he had reversed course and canceled the Miami Open tennis tournament and the county youth fair. The fairgrounds now house a field hospital.

“We did what we thought — and I’m sure all cities did what they thought — was the right thing to do at the right time,” Mr. Gimenez said last week. “It’s called novel coronavirus for a reason. We don’t really know how it acts.”

Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami, one of the first elected officials in the country to test positive for the coronavirus, said other jurisdictions’ decisions to keep events going proved costly.

“That ended up as a national embarrassment, when you saw what happened with the spring breakers and what happened unfortunately, tragically, with the music festival,” he said, referring to the Winter Party.

Further north, near Orlando, people streamed into the six Disney World theme parks before they closed on March 15. Courtney Sheard recalled that the weather was beautiful and that a new ride at Hollywood Studios, Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway, was especially crowded.

After she got back home to Naples, Fla., on March 12, she awoke with a terrible headache and a sore throat. Her 3-year-old daughter, Journey, ran a fever and vomited.

By the time she received a positive test result, Ms. Sheard, 30, had been around her sister, her sister’s children, a friend, her parents, beachgoers and diners at a Bonefish Grill.

When Ms. Sheard learned that Jeffrey Ghazarian, 34, had died on March 19 in California after visiting the theme park, she figured that the coronavirus had been circulating in Disney while he, and then she, were there.

“Think of all the people from around the world, from around the country, that were in Disney and then went home,” she said.

Officials at Walt Disney World did not respond to a request for comment.

Mayor Jerry L. Demings of Orange County, home to Orlando, said local officials had insufficient guidance to act consistently to slow the spread.

“We were left to our own devices to come up with strategies ourselves because of the lack of direction from the federal government and governor’s office,” he said.

Nicholas Hickman started feeling ill three or four days after returning home to Ringgold, Ga., on March 11. He had spent five days at Disney with friends who were on spring break. They were also celebrating Mr. Hickman’s 20th birthday.

Back home, Mr. Hickman came down with a fever, chills and chest pains, but struggled to get tested because no one else in his county had received a coronavirus diagnosis.

Mr. Hickman has since recovered, but only after getting his mother, and likely his father, sick. He does not blame Disney for his infection.

“If we would have been told not to go to Disney and just avoid going, we would not have gone,” he said. “There’s no way we would have gone.”

[youthathletics]

"TDS" = Criticism of the President's Leadership and Conduct = Furhrer worte haben Gesetzkraft. Criticism of a political leadership figure is a necessary part of any meaningful government based on popular sovereignty. Is it pollyanna you're after, or slavish support for this substandard person?

Nice try in the spin zone seaocaster. My criticism was the way MD presented the argument on how Trump was going to make the decision....often what is NOT in the statement speaks volumes; such as, what I added to story, that he was going to surround himself with people smarter than him.

You can criticize once he makes the decision, then blame all you want.

[Andersen]

that he was going to surround himself with people smarter than him.

Jared and Ivanka?

[CU77]

So we finally got that out of the way. You're not on the American right

Because tribal identity is the only thing you care about. Facts? Reasoning? Nope, those don't matter.

a fan consistently puts out the smartest posts on here. He's not on the right or the left. He thinks for himself.

[DMac]

Yes sir, that's the trouble, Andersen, you don't have to be real smart to be smarter than the Prez. You just have to know how to say yes and kiss his asz.

[a fan]

So your saying the private sector is responsible for this. The private sector just threw 17 million people out of work just cause.

The private sector isn't making everything needed in this health care crisis. Ventilators, Masks, PPE?

No. For heaven's sake....I AM the private sector. I AM the sector making things needed in this crisis.

But....and this is the point.....we are doing this with M-A-S-S-I-V-E Federal Government financial support.


I'll grant you that in my particular case, I'm not getting a bailout, and I'm still donating all the sanitizer we're making. But all the hospitals are first responders that I'm sending this stuff to are on the Federal Dole!

Which is great, and I'm OVERJOYED that they are getting this help....I'm not the one who claims to believe in minimal government. That's FoxNation!

Private sector hospitals aren't caring for the bulk of the sick?

Public and private sector hospitals are both caring for the sick.

And guess who is picking up the tab??? The Federal Government. Trump told you this in several press conferences.

The private sector isn't developing treatments vaccines and test?

With Federal dollars to pay for it! But yes!


The Republican argument is that the Free Market is best, and State and local government should handle everything, with a minimal Federal government. And as I said, for the second time in a little over a decade, that illusion is laid bare. Republicans are full of it, and wouldn't last five minutes without massive Federal help.

You won't admit it. Which is fine. But the Trillions of dollars headed out of DC over the last three weeks tells the whole story.

[jhu72]

So your saying the private sector is responsible for this. The private sector just threw 17 million people out of work just cause.

The private sector isn't making everything needed in this health care crisis. Ventilators, Masks, PPE?

No. For heaven's sake....I AM the private sector. I AM the sector making things needed in this crisis.

But....and this is the point.....we are doing this with M-A-S-S-I-V-E Federal Government financial support.


I'll grant you that in my particular case, I'm not getting a bailout, and I'm still donating all the sanitizer we're making. But all the hospitals are first responders that I'm sending this stuff to are on the Federal Dole!

Which is great, and I'm OVERJOYED that they are getting this help....I'm not the one who claims to believe in minimal government. That's FoxNation!

Private sector hospitals aren't caring for the bulk of the sick?

Public and private sector hospitals are both caring for the sick.

And guess who is picking up the tab??? The Federal Government. Trump told you this in several press conferences.

The private sector isn't developing treatments vaccines and test?

With Federal dollars to pay for it! But yes!


The Republican argument is that the Free Market is best, and State and local government should handle everything, with a minimal Federal government. And as I said, for the second time in a little over a decade, that illusion is laid bare. Republicans are full of it, and wouldn't last five minutes without massive Federal help.

You won't admit it. Which is fine. But the Trillions of dollars headed out of DC over the last three weeks tells the whole story.

At the end of the day, the folks picking up the tab are largely blue state residents.

[youthathletics]

that he was going to surround himself with people smarter than him.

Jared and Ivanka?

Don't know, has the 'Open our Country Council" been been announced?

[MDlaxfan76]

Walls are crumbling around the Dems desire to kneecap the economy.

Doctors beginning to come out and say reopen the economy.

https://medium.com/@jbgeach/eight-reaso ... d3a7036301

I don't care if he is a physician - the moment he talks about "protective herd immunity" he is going for a solution that will kill a lot of people - because to get to herd immunity you need about 65% (or more) of the population to get the disease in absence of a vaccine. That is a whale of a lot of deaths that are preventable.

A question many folks are asking. If there is no herd immunity and no vaccine then this virus does not go away? Is there any solution to this or is it inevitable that outbreaks will come back with a vengeance?

You need testing, testing, testing. Both for antibodies to see who has already had it (and hopefully can actually show immunity - not sure "how" immune all patients will be) as well as active infections. Then active monitoring plus contact tracing. And then you have a framework for beginning to open things up. But not necessarily to the pre-virus levels of activity - at least until you actually have a vaccine...

May need masks in public, limits on crowds in stores.

Above is what makes sense.

But Trump is going to use his 'metrics'...when asked what 'metrics', points to his head...

TDS in full effect right there MD, TDS is tearing you apart inside.....take a break. Trump specifically said he was going to surround himself with the brightest in the medical, business, statistical, etc, etc field...but ultimately it is his decision....when he pointed to his head; he is our President, no?

First link that showed up when I googled 'Trump panel to reopen' https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/10/trump-s ... althy.html

I'm glad you are reassured, youth.
This is what I wrote, bolding relevant sentiment.

Above is what makes sense.

But Trump is going to use his 'metrics'...when asked what 'metrics', points to his head...

Let's pray that those who know better are persuasive.

Trump was asked a straight question: "what metrics will you use to determine when to open?

He clearly has NO METRICS...just going to trust his noggin'. His gut. His hunch.

Now, surely we ALL hope that's not actually going to be the case, but that's what he said.

[wgdsr]

So your saying the private sector is responsible for this. The private sector just threw 17 million people out of work just cause.

The private sector isn't making everything needed in this health care crisis. Ventilators, Masks, PPE?

No. For heaven's sake....I AM the private sector. I AM the sector making things needed in this crisis.

But....and this is the point.....we are doing this with M-A-S-S-I-V-E Federal Government financial support.


I'll grant you that in my particular case, I'm not getting a bailout, and I'm still donating all the sanitizer we're making. But all the hospitals are first responders that I'm sending this stuff to are on the Federal Dole!

Which is great, and I'm OVERJOYED that they are getting this help....I'm not the one who claims to believe in minimal government. That's FoxNation!

Private sector hospitals aren't caring for the bulk of the sick?

Public and private sector hospitals are both caring for the sick.

And guess who is picking up the tab??? The Federal Government. Trump told you this in several press conferences.

The private sector isn't developing treatments vaccines and test?

With Federal dollars to pay for it! But yes!


The Republican argument is that the Free Market is best, and State and local government should handle everything, with a minimal Federal government. And as I said, for the second time in a little over a decade, that illusion is laid bare. Republicans are full of it, and wouldn't last five minutes without massive Federal help.

You won't admit it. Which is fine. But the Trillions of dollars headed out of DC over the last three weeks tells the whole story.

At the end of the day, the folks picking up the tab are largely blue state residents.

so... they are happy to do it?

[wgdsr]

Spring Mistake:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/f ... e=Homepage

certainly anecdotal tales can inform and help us understand what decisions and their impact is. and hopefully help us going forward. everywhere.

is that why you posted it?

[a fan]

This taxpayer is happy to help others, wgdsr. Californians are catching on, though. Careful what you ask for, Republicans....liberals are getting sick of paying for your *hit.


Our taxes are RIDCULOUSLY low in America, in comparison to any other 1st world nation.

Now add in how much we blow on our military that other 1st world nations don't? Our taxes are unsustainably low.

No one wants to pay them. And guess who has their hands out in this crisis? That's right. All the people and States who whine about paying taxes.

[jhu72]

So your saying the private sector is responsible for this. The private sector just threw 17 million people out of work just cause.

The private sector isn't making everything needed in this health care crisis. Ventilators, Masks, PPE?

No. For heaven's sake....I AM the private sector. I AM the sector making things needed in this crisis.

But....and this is the point.....we are doing this with M-A-S-S-I-V-E Federal Government financial support.


I'll grant you that in my particular case, I'm not getting a bailout, and I'm still donating all the sanitizer we're making. But all the hospitals are first responders that I'm sending this stuff to are on the Federal Dole!

Which is great, and I'm OVERJOYED that they are getting this help....I'm not the one who claims to believe in minimal government. That's FoxNation!

Private sector hospitals aren't caring for the bulk of the sick?

Public and private sector hospitals are both caring for the sick.

And guess who is picking up the tab??? The Federal Government. Trump told you this in several press conferences.

The private sector isn't developing treatments vaccines and test?

With Federal dollars to pay for it! But yes!


The Republican argument is that the Free Market is best, and State and local government should handle everything, with a minimal Federal government. And as I said, for the second time in a little over a decade, that illusion is laid bare. Republicans are full of it, and wouldn't last five minutes without massive Federal help.

You won't admit it. Which is fine. But the Trillions of dollars headed out of DC over the last three weeks tells the whole story.

At the end of the day, the folks picking up the tab are largely blue state residents.

so... they are happy to do it?

… less and less so given the Trump corruption.

[Peter Brown]

This taxpayer is happy to help others, wgdsr. Californians are catching on, though. Careful what you ask for, Republicans....liberals are getting sick of paying for your *hit.


Our taxes are RIDCULOUSLY low in America, in comparison to any other 1st world nation.

Now add in how much we blow on our military that other 1st world nations don't? Our taxes are unsustainably low.

No one wants to pay them. And guess who has their hands out in this crisis? That's right. All the people and States who whine about paying taxes.

Every time you say our taxes are ‘low’, I have to wonder if you’re being straight here. For starters, if you’re dumb enough to live in NYC or California, your earned income tax rates can approach 60%. Is that low?

But what apologists for our ‘low’ tax system really fail to account for is this:

1. The typical dumb analysis of American taxes always neglects to factor in the hundreds of other taxes we pay every single day: property, sales, phone access fees, etc. Not sure about you, but these seem endless and growing every day. Take a look at your next cell phone bill and tell me why you’re still paying a 9-11 Emergency fee.

2. Not only is nothing ‘free’ in America (oh you want to go to Yellowstone! Lol give me the entrance fee!), but every single one of our federal services blows so hard Linda Lovelace blushes. Look how ridiculously amazingly ineffective just popping out $1,200 checks is. We will never be good at federal services btw do don’t go down that path.

[wgdsr]

This taxpayer is happy to help others, wgdsr. Californians are catching on, though. Careful what you ask for, Republicans....liberals are getting sick of paying for your *hit.

Our taxes are RIDCULOUSLY low in America, in comparison to any other 1st world nation.

Now add in how much we blow on our military that other 1st world nations don't? Our taxes are unsustainably low.

No one wants to pay them. And guess who has their hands out in this crisis? That's right. All the people and States who whine about paying taxes.

i agree we don't need to be dropping trillions at the rate we do for a military when we are in no arms race.
other than that, what informs the rest of your statement/opinion? any stats?