Duke at UVA Friday March 31 5 pm

[wgdsr]

That's not even factoring in that that most of the CHSAA guys are on the "teams" whereas the only position that the MIAA is represented on above HM is at SSDM.

i'm not 100 what this means, but imo ssdm is one of the top 3 most important positions on the field.

Sunderland is off to a solid start, but far too early to tell if he'll ever be an AA let alone Tewaarton candidate; I know UVA is stacked, but truly elite guys force their way to the front of the gameplan early on (case in point: UVA teammate Connor Shellenberger).

shellenberger requested to redshirt his freshman year.

[10stone5]

I mostly agree on the last point. Philly is punching above its weight but at this point, but definitely still behind Baltimore. However there are two big caveats:

1. MIAA is bringing in lots of transfers from out of the area to bolster their "hotbed" status. It creates the appearance of a larger gap than is actually there as a hotbed, and I'd argue in the long run boarding could even hurt local development in Baltimore.

2. The Philly area has a really good depth of talent relative to other areas in the classes that are just starting to hit the high school level. Whether this is a trend or an occasional spike remains to be seen.

These two points are very interesting.
I couldn’t tell you whether the SE PA privates actively recruit out of staters, other than Spanos is out of Maryland - no idea why he and his family chose Malvern over other closer MD private schools.
Also, a couple of well recruited SE PA privates, their missions are to bring in students scholastically from across the country, Hill School being one of those schools - but in general, I’d say the top lacrosse SE PA preps really have no incentive to actively recruit high end players from out of state.

[random observer]

That's not even factoring in that that most of the CHSAA guys are on the "teams" whereas the only position that the MIAA is represented on above HM is at SSDM.

i'm not 100 what this means, but imo ssdm is one of the top 3 most important positions on the field.

Sunderland is off to a solid start, but far too early to tell if he'll ever be an AA let alone Tewaarton candidate; I know UVA is stacked, but truly elite guys force their way to the front of the gameplan early on (case in point: UVA teammate Connor Shellenberger).

shellenberger requested to redshirt his freshman year.

Even in the most generous viewpoint I would disagree that SSDM is a top 3 most important position (unless it's a true box-to-box player who transcends the role, such as a Ryan Conrad). Having an elite attack man that can create offense is the most important position on the field; it's near impossible to win a title without one. Goalie and FOGO would be the next two IMO.

And yes, good point that Shellenberger redshirted, I had forgotten about that. But still, if you look at the attack man on the midseason AA list, almost all of them started as freshmen. Having said that, the exceptions all seem to be the UVA guys, two of whom redshirted (although I think Shellenberger would have been a star even without the redshirt from day one). It isn't hard to see Sunderland having a Xander Dickson-like career.

[Gatsby]

Certainly have had some great Philly area players as Philly has surpassed Baltimore as a hotbed.

I had also independently arrived at this conclusion myself several years ago. I guess the numbers presented by HF16 don't show it to be currently true, but for a while all the top-tier players in my mind were coming from SE PA -- Ament, Aiken, Moore, Rambo, Sowers

[wgdsr]

That's not even factoring in that that most of the CHSAA guys are on the "teams" whereas the only position that the MIAA is represented on above HM is at SSDM.

i'm not 100 what this means, but imo ssdm is one of the top 3 most important positions on the field.

Sunderland is off to a solid start, but far too early to tell if he'll ever be an AA let alone Tewaarton candidate; I know UVA is stacked, but truly elite guys force their way to the front of the gameplan early on (case in point: UVA teammate Connor Shellenberger).

shellenberger requested to redshirt his freshman year.

Even in the most generous viewpoint I would disagree that SSDM is a top 3 most important position (unless it's a true box-to-box player who transcends the role, such as a Ryan Conrad). Having an elite attack man that can create offense is the most important position on the field; it's near impossible to win a title without one. Goalie and FOGO would be the next two IMO.

And yes, good point that Shellenberger redshirted, I had forgotten about that. But still, if you look at the attack man on the midseason AA list, almost all of them started as freshmen. Having said that, the exceptions all seem to be the UVA guys, two of whom redshirted (although I think Shellenberger would have been a star even without the redshirt from day one). It isn't hard to see Sunderland having a Xander Dickson-like career.

a) i disagree. ssdm is incredibly important and not to be narginialized. which i believe u were doing?
b) i don't care about the mid-season list from whomever. we all have our own. in any event, sunderland or whoever will be what he is. we'll write that narrative then.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Certainly have had some great Philly area players as Philly has surpassed Baltimore as a hotbed.

I had also independently arrived at this conclusion myself several years ago. I guess the numbers presented by HF16 don't show it to be currently true, but for a while all the top-tier players in my mind were coming from SE PA -- Ament, Aiken, Moore, Rambo, Sowers

Yep

[random observer]

That's not even factoring in that that most of the CHSAA guys are on the "teams" whereas the only position that the MIAA is represented on above HM is at SSDM.

i'm not 100 what this means, but imo ssdm is one of the top 3 most important positions on the field.

Sunderland is off to a solid start, but far too early to tell if he'll ever be an AA let alone Tewaarton candidate; I know UVA is stacked, but truly elite guys force their way to the front of the gameplan early on (case in point: UVA teammate Connor Shellenberger).

shellenberger requested to redshirt his freshman year.

Even in the most generous viewpoint I would disagree that SSDM is a top 3 most important position (unless it's a true box-to-box player who transcends the role, such as a Ryan Conrad). Having an elite attack man that can create offense is the most important position on the field; it's near impossible to win a title without one. Goalie and FOGO would be the next two IMO.

And yes, good point that Shellenberger redshirted, I had forgotten about that. But still, if you look at the attack man on the midseason AA list, almost all of them started as freshmen. Having said that, the exceptions all seem to be the UVA guys, two of whom redshirted (although I think Shellenberger would have been a star even without the redshirt from day one). It isn't hard to see Sunderland having a Xander Dickson-like career.

a) i disagree. ssdm is incredibly important and not to be narginialized. which i believe u were doing?
b) i don't care about the mid-season list from whomever. we all have our own. in any event, sunderland or whoever will be what he is. we'll write that narrative then.

It's important but it's not a top 3 most important position IMO. As to my marginalizing, that is perhaps an accurate description of what I'm doing. But my point isn't to say that SSDM isn't an important position. My point is that IMO it's easier to take a guy and develop him into a good SSDM than it is to develop someone into a star attackman. This is purely my opinion and I could very well be wrong, but I think a lot of what contributes to the success of a top tier D1 SSDM has more to do with what he learned from a college coaching staff than what he did growing up in whatever hotbed he started playing lacrosse in. Whereas very few guys come into D1 as an average attackman and suddenly transform into a first team AA talent.

[10stone5]

Certainly have had some great Philly area players as Philly has surpassed Baltimore as a hotbed.

I had also independently arrived at this conclusion myself several years ago. I guess the numbers presented by HF16 don't show it to be currently true, but for a while all the top-tier players in my mind were coming from SE PA -- Ament, Aiken, Moore, Rambo, Sowers

Yep

Random mentions above that its cyclical or spiky, in terms of what you get out of SE PA - public, private, I’m not sure there is really a sharp distinction at this point ————

2. The Philly area has a really good depth of talent relative to other areas in the classes that are just starting to hit the high school level. Whether this is a trend or an occasional spike remains to be seen.

The prior SE PA cycle was with recruits such as Haldy and Wharton — well, really it was those two, both out of a heavily followed Haverford team, both getting lots of ink.
A good stretch of players in that timeframe - Wharton, Haldy, Ken Clausen, Jordan Wolf, Tucker Durkin.

Course, the likelihood of getting another stretch of recruits like Rambo, Ament, Moore, Sowers, Aitken — well, I mean you’re talking once in a lifetime — at least four of those almost certain future National Lacrosse Hall of Famers.

[MDlaxfan76]

Does the MIAA still produce some good DI lax players? Sure. Is it the epicenter of hs lacrosse? No. Thus is just the opinion of one MSA grad and son of an MSA coach. For those not steeped in the history of Maryland hs lax, the MSA was the predecessor of the MIAA. It included both private schools and what current private school students call the “pubs.”

Of course it isn't. Not sure who would have suggested otherwise!

As a fellow MSA grad, and son of an MSA grad, and father of an MIAA grad, I too know the history. Thankfully, the sport has continued to spread across the country, with multiple deep hot beds today, rather than just Baltimore, the Island, and Upstate... with a smattering elsewhere.

But pretty darn sure the MIAA continues to over produce D1 talent, proportionate to population, and especially those former 6 A-Conference MSA schools plus Anne Arundel county, relative to pretty much any other lax playing area. But definitely not the concentration level as many decades gone by.

Of course.

[MDlaxfan76]

Certainly have had some great Philly area players as Philly has surpassed Baltimore as a hotbed.

I had also independently arrived at this conclusion myself several years ago. I guess the numbers presented by HF16 don't show it to be currently true, but for a while all the top-tier players in my mind were coming from SE PA -- Ament, Aiken, Moore, Rambo, Sowers

Again, it wasn't true in that set of years either, though certainly numerous tremendous players out of Philly. More noticeable than in prior periods for sure.

[MDlaxfan76]

This discussion deserves it's own thread, but I was with a current lax coach and multiple other lax pals last night, and the topic was the impact of club vs rec depleting the overall growth and strength of lacrosse.

I do know that the strength, for instance, of the MSA/MIAA was largely due to the rec programs in our area, with very high quality (relatively) of coaching of youngsters...not with a focus on the very best 9 year olds, but rather the whole pool of 6-14. Rules that said if you wanted to play travel, you played house league during the week. Season over in early June.

Far less burnout, far less specialization as the kids grew older. This coach (on the Island) has just 18 players on his team, no JV. His wife at same small school runs the track program with 45 ...they have 4 D1 recruits out of their class, the # 1 400 relay team in the state, with runners who often didn't run until HS... and regularly have that level...she remarked that track doesn't have any of this 'club' stuff with pay to play and emphasis on just the very 'best'...

[HopFan16]

Does the MIAA still produce some good DI lax players? Sure. Is it the epicenter of hs lacrosse? No. Thus is just the opinion of one MSA grad and son of an MSA coach. For those not steeped in the history of Maryland hs lax, the MSA was the predecessor of the MIAA. It included both private schools and what current private school students call the “pubs.”

Of course it isn't. Not sure who would have suggested otherwise!

As a fellow MSA grad, and son of an MSA grad, and father of an MIAA grad, I too know the history. Thankfully, the sport has continued to spread across the country, with multiple deep hot beds today, rather than just Baltimore, the Island, and Upstate... with a smattering elsewhere.

But pretty darn sure the MIAA continues to over produce D1 talent, proportionately, and especially those former 6 A-Conerence MSA schools plus Anne Arundel county, relative to pretty much any other lax playing area. But definitely not the concentration level as many decades gone by.

Of course.

Yeah, per capita Baltimore's ability to still produce elite talent is impressive. Long Island clearly produces *more* good players but it's also a much bigger land mass, with a much bigger population, and many many more schools.

As for the earlier claim that the MIAA loses more to top OOC programs than it wins, I guess it depends on what you consider a top program but last year Calvert Hall beat Lawrenceville and the Hill Academy (lost to St. John's DC — so did everybody); McDonogh beat Haverford (lost to Culver and Gonzaga); St. Mary's beat Georgetown Prep and Landon; and Boy's Latin beat Lawrenceville and Culver (lost to St. John's DC). So far this year, BL beat Lawrenceville again but lost to Culver, McDonogh beat Haverford and Gonzaga, St. Mary's beat GPrep and La Salle (but just lost in OT to Victor which was mildly surprising). Calvert Hall has struggled OOC this year with losses to LVille, Hill, and Malvern, though they appear to be the outlier. The top of the conference still looks like it's holding its own against top programs in PA and DC as well as PG/transfer factories like LVille. Basically no one on that team is actually from New Jersey.

[HooDat]

the impact of club vs rec depleting the overall growth and strength of lacrosse.

this 'club' stuff with pay to play and emphasis on just the very 'best'...

I could see this cancer forming 15 years ago. Of course the counter-argument is look at the increased parity of college lacrosse, more talent is being developed in more places. To that I would say, yes - but think about how much more talent could have developed if the late bloomers weren't shoved to the side and denied access to equal training.

I understood the need for travel club teams in the non hotbed regions - in fact I helped facilitate travel for boys and girls from Texas so that they could see for themselves the quality of play that their peers were capable of - with the message that nothing was keeping them from doing the same but their own expectations.

I never understood clubs taking priority over high school. I really never understood the need for club in Baltimore or on LI. I also became very discouraged at the Texas (and I assume other non traditional areas) club teams started pushing for commitments that allowed for nothing other than high school play - coaches pilfering talent from competing programs to make theirs "the best" ~ in middle school! Sure your super-team is great, but you just lost 20 kids in that age bracket from the game - but you got yours $$$ ....


.... sorry for the rant, I am sure this something to to with Duke UVA?

[MDlaxfan76]

the impact of club vs rec depleting the overall growth and strength of lacrosse.

this 'club' stuff with pay to play and emphasis on just the very 'best'...

I could see this cancer forming 15 years ago. Of course the counter-argument is look at the increased parity of college lacrosse, more talent is being developed in more places. To that I would say, yes - but think about how much more talent could have developed if the late bloomers weren't shoved to the side and denied access to equal training.

I understood the need for travel club teams in the non hotbed regions - in fact I helped facilitate travel for boys and girls from Texas so that they could see for themselves the quality of play that their peers were capable of - with the message that nothing was keeping them from doing the same but their own expectations.

I never understood clubs taking priority over high school. I really never understood the need for club in Baltimore or on LI. I also became very discouraged at the Texas (and I assume other non traditional areas) club teams started pushing for commitments that allowed for nothing other than high school play - coaches pilfering talent from competing programs to make theirs "the best" ~ in middle school! Sure your super-team is great, but you just lost 20 kids in that age bracket from the game - but you got yours $$$ ....


.... sorry for the rant, I am sure this something to to with Duke UVA?

You and I see this much the same way.

My son was lucky to be early enough in this change that he and his buddies went through the rec process, then got tabbed to join a summer tourney club that was newly forming. Numerous future top D1 players in that group. But he was not remotely considered a star, certainly not amidst that bunch...that came much later. But would he have been as successful in todays' era just a decade later?

He was never the top player on any of the rec teams, wasn't the kid getting chosen for All-Star status, was typically picked among the last for the travel teams etc, yet persisted, wasn't discouraged, always felt he was contributing. Each season, he'd start out as a back-up, but by mid-season would be a starter... Great stick, great head, but slow afoot, big paws. When he got in the goal in 8th grade and continued to develop physically, he was still not highly acclaimed. Fresh Soph as a freshman in HS (10 older tenders in school), JV as sophomore...captain of those teams (with another future IVY starter), but not on anyone's top lists...managed to get into a couple of showcases, then Blue Chip, but back-up to a senior his junior year. Heck, at one point, the kid the year below him was moved into first back-up (very avid parents, father Chair of BD, brothers excellent players; high expectations)...but then my son managed to earn it on the merits and kept improving...All-Ivy. The kid above him and the kid the year below him played some DIII ball, but never really blossomed. Good players, good kids.

When talking with his college guidance counselor and the #2 administrator as a rising junior, they said my son shouldn't bother do off-site speed training in addition to squash and lax, as "only the best athletes get recruited"...he ignored that and managed to become a coach/trainer of other players, initially younger, then older as well so as to earn his own time working out.

Would he have gotten discouraged in today's era?
Maybe, maybe not...he loved being on the teams and contributing any way he could.
And when he had a chance to be the difference maker under pressure, he repeatedly did so, outperforming expectations again and again.

But obviously a lot of kids get told that they're never going to make it to college ball...

Last night with the group of older folks who kids have all been through the ringer, playing lax, running track, etc at top D1 and DIII programs, the discussion was about the challenges of kids making it to the colleges of their dreams (and their parents dreams!); my son is still involved with this process for a few international students from his former company...crazy competitive. One of the moms was talking about a good friend's kid who had been rejected by all her top choices, or waitlisted...the friend was distraught, she told her to toughen up, be upset privately ok, but as a parent her job was to model resilience not whining...A comment was made about "everyone gets a ribbon"; my son remarked that kids need to "get in the goal...get some goals scored on them"...realize you don't make every save, next shot...a little failure makes you stronger...the track coach mom who helps in college guidance too said that she makes a point of asking super successful people whether they were "rejected" at some point in their lives (often the first such is college admissions) and had found almost everyone cited some major rejections along the way...which she uses in guiding her students. Expect some losses, some "goals scored", and battle to the other side...

Matched your rant...

[Finster]

This discussion should be it’s own thread but I don’t know how to do that.

Can one of you who know the admin ask him to reset the thread from when we stopped talking about Duke and UVA?

Fwiw I agree mostly with Random Observer here. Very good analysis. I guess the pressure will be on the Millon kid to immediately perform next year

[HooDat]

Matched your rant...

This discussion should be it’s own thread but I don’t know how to do that.

Can one of you who know the admin ask him to reset the thread from when we stopped talking about Duke and UVA?

Fwiw I agree mostly with Random Observer here. Very good analysis. I guess the pressure will be on the Millon kid to immediately perform next year

But we're just keeping the seat warm!

It is only 9 days until it is UVA -v- Duke again.

[molo]

According to this morning’s Sun, Millon is hurt. Younger brother is pictured.

[MDlaxfan76]

According to this morning’s Sun, Millon is hurt. Younger brother is pictured.

Bummer.

[Finster]

Matched your rant...

This discussion should be it’s own thread but I don’t know how to do that.

Can one of you who know the admin ask him to reset the thread from when we stopped talking about Duke and UVA?

Fwiw I agree mostly with Random Observer here. Very good analysis. I guess the pressure will be on the Millon kid to immediately perform next year

But we're just keeping the seat warm!

It is only 9 days until it is UVA -v- Duke again.

Lol. I’ll be front and center watching your Hoos in chapel hill tomorrow in the rain

I’ve seen UVA 2x this year. Looking forward to checking out Joes squad. This game is gonna reveal both teams, for better or worse.

[Gatsby]

So I have to ask. Based on Duke > UVA and UVA > ND, what give you such confidence to go against the transitive law? Is it particular match-ups? Some kind of revenge factor?

P.S. Of course, I know that over the course of a season, the transitive law gets broken frequently, but absent other information that would be my starting point, especially with the results so recent. So, what is the other information?

I think ND probably beats Duke too, because they have recently done that, last season twice. All the intra-ACC results are mostly the same as last season so far with Syracuse giving Duke the most trouble (although Duke won this time in OT, which was the only change from last season). Duke could beat ND, but why not go with recent history?

I told ya. The ACC teams that will beat Duke or play them tough: ND, Syracuse. It doesn't matter who's ranked where, or who beats which common opponents.