JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[old salt]

Reporting that 2 militia rockets impacted without effect in the Green Zone a few hours ago. Same old, same old.

They were gonna stop doing that if we hadn't killed Soleimani & friends.

[holmes435]

Let's do some math. 10 missile strikes on Al Assad with 1500 lb HE warheads.
By way of comparison -- a single F-15E Strike Eagle can deliver 24,000 lbs of precision guided ordnance, return to base & fly another mission in less than 1 hr turnaround time. They usually go in flights of two aircraft, & they hit what they aim for.

SA & Qatar are currently operating (& buying more of) the latest versions of the F-15 Strike Eagle.

What kind of munitions have killed the most Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan the past two decades?

I can tell you whats been the most effective against my friends and teammates.

[Kismet]

Timing is impeccable: Iran says it will not give black box of Ukrainian plane to Boeing

Iran's civil aviation organization has said that it will not hand over to Boeing the black box of the Ukrainian airlines flight that crashed shortly after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeni Airport on Wednesday morning.
Both black boxes were found Wednesday, Iranian state television has reported. An Iranian official was quoted as saying both boxes were damaged but that it was believed their data could still be retrieved.

They have been saying this since early AM east coast this morning.

Why do you think Iran shot down the plane?

Don't think there is any evidence they did? Western Intel agencies at the moment don't believe they did either (see Reuters story). Still could turn out they did. Debris examination should be sufficient to make determination. If I were the Iranians, I would not release the black boxes to any US organization or company. Why should they trust an American defense company?

If it turns out that they did, it was clearly an accident, caught up in the heat of alert, expecting incoming. Same as the airliner shot down by the US in the straits a few years ago. Good reason for nobody wanting to see war in the region.

Photo of engine debris at crash site on CNN shows damage to an engine turbine compressor consistent with uncontained engine failure.

Uncontained engine failure on a 737 does not always result in a crash - evidence in 2018 Southwest 1380 LGA-DFW at 32,000 feet caused rapid decompression, damaged the fuselage and wing resulted in one fatality but crew directed successful emergency landing at Philadelphia. While it is possible that such an event could cause a crash it is certainly not a certainty. An airliner should be able to keep flying even if one engine fails, which means pilots normally have time to communicate and recover the aircraft. Very experienced flight crew all with over 10,000 hours of flight time. They never even called a mayday.

The fact that the Iranians will not involve Boeing (manufacturer) in any investigation will not help in determining a root cause is a big problem. In fact, the only places that read out and analyze data are in France, UK and USA. If the Iranians are not going to use one of these may never know what occurred and that is not good. Have to believe that there would be ways to run the analysis with Iranians present to insure things being on the up and up. While their skepticism might be understandable, you'd think that the Ukrainians as well as Canadians and other countries with passengers on board would want to convince them to do what's best to determine causation.

For Boeing, another crash of aircraft they made. Even if its not a Max, its troubling and under these circumstances I would want them supervised closely in any investigation anywhere. These are the folks who certified that simulator training on the Max wasn't necessary as a selling point and they just had to do a 180 on that as part of recertification.

[tech37]

Obviously Iran needs to give up the black boxes.

[youthathletics]

Timing is impeccable: Iran says it will not give black box of Ukrainian plane to Boeing

Iran's civil aviation organization has said that it will not hand over to Boeing the black box of the Ukrainian airlines flight that crashed shortly after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeni Airport on Wednesday morning.
Both black boxes were found Wednesday, Iranian state television has reported. An Iranian official was quoted as saying both boxes were damaged but that it was believed their data could still be retrieved.

They have been saying this since early AM east coast this morning.

Why do you think Iran shot down the plane?

Don't think there is any evidence they did? Western Intel agencies at the moment don't believe they did either (see Reuters story). Still could turn out they did. Debris examination should be sufficient to make determination. If I were the Iranians, I would not release the black boxes to any US organization or company. Why should they trust an American defense company?

If it turns out that they did, it was clearly an accident, caught up in the heat of alert, expecting incoming. Same as the airliner shot down by the US in the straits a few years ago. Good reason for nobody wanting to see war in the region.

Photo of engine debris at crash site on CNN shows damage to an engine turbine compressor consistent with uncontained engine failure.

Uncontained engine failure on a 737 does not always result in a crash - evidence in 2018 Southwest 1380 LGA-DFW at 32,000 feet caused rapid decompression, damaged the fuselage and wing resulted in one fatality but crew directed successful emergency landing at Philadelphia. While it is possible that such an event could cause a crash it is certainly not a certainty. An airliner should be able to keep flying even if one engine fails, which means pilots normally have time to communicate and recover the aircraft. Very experienced flight crew all with over 10,000 hours of flight time. They never even called a mayday.

The fact that the Iranians will not involve Boeing (manufacturer) in any investigation will not help in determining a root cause is a big problem. In fact, the only places that read out and analyze data are in France, UK and USA. If the Iranians are not going to use one of these may never know what occurred and that is not good. Have to believe that there would be ways to run the analysis with Iranians present to insure things being on the up and up. While their skepticism might be understandable, you'd think that the Ukrainians as well as Canadians and other countries with passengers on board would want to convince them to do what's best to determine causation.

For Boeing, another crash of aircraft they made. Even if its not a Max, its troubling and under these circumstances I would want them supervised closely in any investigation anywhere. These are the folks who certified that simulator training on the Max wasn't necessary as a selling point and they just had to do a 180 on that as part of recertification.

WSJ: Boeing Jet Was on Fire Before Crash, Iran Says; Investigators Consider Hostile Act

The Ukraine International Airlines flight that crashed after takeoff from Tehran was on fire before it hit the ground, Iran’s aviation regulator said,....
The plane was aflame as its hit the ground and exploded, Mr. Abedzadeh said, citing witnesses on the ground and a flight crew on another aircraft at a higher altitude.
No radio messages were received from the pilot about unusual conditions, Mr. Abedzadeh added in an initial report, according to IRNA, the state news agency.

[DD-Tech]

Story that came up on my Boeing ticker news feed this morning.

By Aresu Eqbali in Tehran , Rory Jones in Dubai and Georgi Kantchev in Moscow
The Ukraine International Airlines flight that crashed after takeoff from Tehran was on fire before it hit the ground, Iran's aviation regulator said, as the cause of the crash remained unclear and Ukrainian authorities considered the possibility that the plane was hit by a projectile or an explosion.
The Boeing Co. 737-800 single-aisle jet ascended to 8,000 feet before disappearing from radar and crashing, killing all 176 people on board, said Ali Abedzadeh , head of Iran's Civil Aviation Organization , according to the state news agency. Mr. Abedzadeh said that before crashing, the plane turned around and headed back in the direction of the airport. The jet was aflame as it hit the ground and exploded, he added.
The investigation into the cause of he crash is expected to be one of the most politically thorny probes ever. Tensions are high between the U.S. and Iran over the killing of a top Iranian general. Boeing is already dealing with the fallout from the grounding of its 737 MAX fleet after two fatal crashes involving that jet.
The cause of Wednesday's crash was unclear, and authorities in Iran and Ukraine pointed to different possible scenarios.
Iran's minister of roads and urban development, Mohammad Eslami , said the plane suffered a technical fault. "Rumors about the incident being a terrorist attack, explosion or shooting at the plane...are not true," he said.
But Ukrainian investigators were considering a number of possible versions of events, including a strike by an antiaircraft missile, a collision with a drone, and an explosion of an engine or inside the aircraft as a result of a terrorist attack, said Oleksiy Danilov , the head of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council , in a Facebook post on Thursday.
He didn't mention any evidence pointing to an attack.


Twitter had a cell phone video posted within a few hours of the crash showing the plane turning and on fire then crashing and exploding off in the distance. No comms from the cockpit? It was in the air burning for what seemed like a long time.

This was the clip that I had seen on twitter:
https://youtu.be/XzijRSe2M5I

[Kismet]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

[tech37]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

[MDlaxfan76]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

"forced"???

No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.

Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.

However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.

But no one can force them to do anything.

[tech37]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

"forced"??? semantics

No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.

Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.

However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.

But no one can force them to do anything.

Leaders of Ukraine and Canada vow to find cause of crash that killed dozens of their citizens

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -to-boeing

[SCLaxAttack]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

"forced"???

No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.

Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.

However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.

But no one can force them to do anything.

[Sarcasm font] Nah, you must be wrong. There must be international law or treaties requiring cooperation among nations in these types of situations, and we all know Iran wouldn’t break international law or treaty obligations. /[Sarcasm font off]

[MDlaxfan76]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

"forced"??? semantics

No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.

Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.

However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.

But no one can force them to do anything.

Leaders of Ukraine and Canada vow to find cause of crash that killed dozens of their citizens

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -to-boeing

Well, of course.
Vow away.

I do think we'll eventually know, but it'll be because they decide to do so, not because they're "forced".

[MDlaxfan76]

Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html

Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.

Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.

If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.

I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?

"forced"???

No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.

Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.

However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.

But no one can force them to do anything.

[Sarcasm font] Nah, you must be wrong. There must be international law or treaties requiring cooperation among nations in these types of situations, and we all know Iran wouldn’t break international law or treaty obligations. /[Sarcasm font off]

The painful aspect is that the US is losing the moral high ground in such matters.
The Trump crew appears to not understand the power of moral authority, over the long term.
"I like to follow the follow the law, but.."
That's not a surprise for Trump himself, he's both stupid and has no personal moral compass, but it's painful to watch his enablers.

[foreverlax]

Russia has already offered Iraq their air defense systems.

#allroads

Of course. No surprise here. The latest GOP Trump mind-meld victim with no shame - Nikki Haley chimes in with Trumpty Dumpty style BS.
On FauxNews, of course. She is competing with Jeanine Pirro for attention for the cult leader. Pirro (who claims to be lawyer/judge declared that statute of limitations has run out on impeachment articles and it is all over. She must be auditioning to replace Judy Judy!

As Don Jr. displays his new Crusader white supremicist-themed AR-15.

Dopes.

Rapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??

"You don't see anyone standing up for Iran. You're not hearing any of the Gulf members. You're not hearing China. You're not hearing Russia," Haley said.

"The only ones that are mourning the loss of Soleimani are our Democrat leadership, and our Democrat presidential candidates."

[Typical Lax Dad]

Russia has already offered Iraq their air defense systems.

#allroads

Of course. No surprise here. The latest GOP Trump mind-meld victim with no shame - Nikki Haley chimes in with Trumpty Dumpty style BS.
On FauxNews, of course. She is competing with Jeanine Pirro for attention for the cult leader. Pirro (who claims to be lawyer/judge declared that statute of limitations has run out on impeachment articles and it is all over. She must be auditioning to replace Judy Judy!

As Don Jr. displays his new Crusader white supremicist-themed AR-15.

Dopes.

Rapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??

"You don't see anyone standing up for Iran. You're not hearing any of the Gulf members. You're not hearing China. You're not hearing Russia," Haley said.

"The only ones that are mourning the loss of Soleimani are our Democrat leadership, and our Democrat presidential candidates."

Mourning the loss? Jesus.....

[Brooklyn]

Loony Trump toons for today.

[a fan]

Rapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??

She's a warmonger. Simple.

She's telling her supporters: "why would anyone possibly ask themselves "does this further our goals with Iran? This guy was bad, and we kill all bad men. That's as complicated as it gets".

It's clear Haley would have kept us in Vietnam all this time, using the reasoning "they keep shooting Americans! We can't let them do that!!"

(Psst., hey FoxNation. Libs aren't mourning the death of some General they've never heard of. They're simply worried that this will escalate with Iran, and all the libs want to do is to pull our people out of the Middle East, and out of harm's way.

I'd vote for Trump before I'd vote for Haley. I've read enough of her stupidity now. Hard pass.

[jhu72]

Looks like US intel is now claiming US satellite images show the plane was shot down by a missile originating in Iran. Speculation is it is the same type of missile that brought down the Ukrainian plane over Russia/Ukraine a couple years ago.

Looks like it was an Iranian f**k up.

[jhu72]

Rapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??

She's a warmonger. Simple.

She's telling her supporters: "why would anyone possibly ask themselves "does this further our goals with Iran? This guy was bad, and we kill all bad men. That's as complicated as it gets".

It's clear Haley would have kept us in Vietnam all this time, using the reasoning "they keep shooting Americans! We can't let them do that!!"

(Psst., hey FoxNation. Libs aren't mourning the death of some General they've never heard of. They're simply worried that this will escalate with Iran, and all the libs want to do is to pull our people out of the Middle East, and out of harm's way.

I'd vote for Trump before I'd vote for Haley. I've read enough of her stupidity now. Hard pass.

Pretty much my feeling as well (except the part about voting for Orange Duce). She is just one more Trump lover.

[old salt]

Some uncontained engine failures can bring down an aircraft, despite hardened cowlings.
It depends on how "cleanly" a turbine "wheel" detaches & the angle at which it cuts through surrounding material.

I secured the crash site & investigated the crash of an A-4 Skyhawk that was literally sawed in half by a departing turbine "wheel".
It was in rural N VA. The pilot ejected ok. Nobody hurt or property damaged.
Within an hour of reaching the crash site, we found the turbine wheel, well away from the rest of the debris.
Within 30 min of arriving on the scene, the Navy Safety Center investigator from Norfolk, having seen the debris & turbine "wheel", told us to finish taking pictures & load up the debris. He knew the cause. Subsequent analysis of the debris verified his initial conclusion.

That said, most catastrophic engine failures (in multi engine commercial aircraft) are survivable.
Modern turbofans are also more robust than older turbojet engines, like those used in older military aircraft.