D1 Men NCAA Tournament

[Matnum PI]

go 3 and 7.
pick up 5 cupcakes.
presto.
everyone's not bothered with you as a tournament selection.
3 and 7.

wgdsr, correct. play #1 through #10, beat three of them (which means, by definition, you're at least the #7 team in the Nation), throw in 5 cupcakes (which will be meaningless) and... As the #7 (or better) team in the nation, you should be in the Tourney.

[wgdsr]

go 3 and 7.
pick up 5 cupcakes.
presto.
everyone's not bothered with you as a tournament selection.
3 and 7.

wgdsr, correct. play #1 through #10, beat three of them (which means, by definition, you're at least the #7 team in the Nation), throw in 5 cupcakes (which will be meaningless) and... As the #7 (or better) team in the nation, you should be in the Tourney.

umm... yeah, but it didn't work that way. for anybody. one school got one of 8 coveted slots for beating the number 11 and 17 teams. that's the list.

a bunch of teams beat teams better than #11. didn't help them.

[Matnum PI]

Who wants to see Penn-Yale again in the quarters?

I most certainly do not. Given a choice, I want zero re-runs. Even if Penn played Yale in the finals, though obviously unavoidable, I would prefer original programming.

[Matnum PI]

a bunch of teams beat teams better than #11. didn't help them.

Who's that?

[calourie]

The 8 selected at larges according to the metrics would make it look like the committee weighed RPI over SOS, no? So why pick on SOS? Or stated another way, Cornell had the #3 SOS and didn't get in... but anyway, carry on if you must.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.

That's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.

When they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.

[Matnum PI]

Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss.

My guess is that if HP was in the ACC or Big Ten, they'd be sub .500 and ineligible for the Tourney.

[wgdsr]

a bunch of teams beat teams better than #11. didn't help them.

Who's that?

denver, cornell, high point. start there?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss.

My guess is that if HP was in the ACC or Big Ten, they'd be sub .500 and ineligible for the Tourney.

It's a guess.

[a fan]

The 8 selected at larges according to the metrics would make it look like the committee weighed RPI over SOS, no? So why pick on SOS? Or stated another way, Cornell had the #3 SOS and didn't get in... but anyway, carry on if you must.

You can pick on both RPI and SOS. Fruit from the same tree. Both value losses....literal points for losing. But the idea is: you have to lose to the "right teams". Which is absurd.

SOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero.

Been pointing this out for 20 years.

[Cooter]

Hopkins getting in at 8-7 tells me the system is broken.

8-7 with the #2 SOS. This doesn't bother me.

The whole SOS is weak in lacrosse. Doesn't seem like a large enough sample size and all the strong schedules are against the same teams. Add in pre season ranking bias and the bed is almost already made. Just odd. Strong schedule but you are losing....and we complain about "participation" trophies.

have 10 hard games.
go 3 and 7.
pick up 5 cupcakes.
presto.
everyone's not bothered with you as a tournament selection.
3 and 7.

Gosh, wgdsr, TLD, and Cooter all agree on something.

[Big Dog]

The whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.

That's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.

When they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.

Right, but HP had two bad losses in total. You can't lose to bottom 20 teams and expect to be taken seriously.

[Matnum PI]

SOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero. Been pointing this out for 20 years.

12-0 and 0-12 are meaningless. Similarly, the #1 SOS in the league is also meaningless. But, together, it is meaningful. especially if you breakdown the Ws and Ls and the individual opponents by how they contributed to the SOS.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.

That's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.

When they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.

Right, but HP had two bad losses in total. You can't lose to bottom 20 teams and expect to be taken seriously.

You mean the loss to Jacksonville whom they beat 17-3 was one of the bad losses? Duke and UVA didn't take them seriously..... Cornell stunk too?

[DocBarrister]

The 8 selected at larges according to the metrics would make it look like the committee weighed RPI over SOS, no? So why pick on SOS? Or stated another way, Cornell had the #3 SOS and didn't get in... but anyway, carry on if you must.

You can pick on both RPI and SOS. Fruit from the same tree. Both value losses....literal points for losing. But the idea is: you have to lose to the "right teams". Which is absurd.

SOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero.

Been pointing this out for 20 years.

And you have been wrong for 20 years.

SOS is a reality check on pretty records built against weak teams.

Ask Penn State and Maryland what they think of 8-7 Johns Hopkins. That 8-7 record was built on the toughest schedule in the entire nation ... #1 SOS. How many teams could play Penn State to a draw in regulation?

SOS doesn’t give schools credit for losses. It puts a team’s win-loss record in proper perspective.

DocBarrister

[Matnum PI]

denver, cornell, high point. start there?

Denver lost to P'ton, Villanova, and G'town. Those aren't great losses. (Their loss to Notre Dame isn't so bad.) And their 3 best Ws were Towson, Georgetown, and UNC. Looking at who they beat and who they lost to, this isn't a great team.

HP beat Duke and UVA. This is awesome. And, early in the season, they were rewarded for doing so. And then they lost to St. Johns... and Jacksonville... and Richmond. That's a problem.

Cornell is different. they beat Notre Dame and Towson... which is pretty good. and they lost to Yale x2, Penn and SU, respectable losses. It's a good season. But, when you're on the bubble, good is relative.

[Typical Lax Dad]

denver, cornell, high point. start there?

Denver lost to P'ton, Villanova, and G'town. Those aren't great losses. (Their loss to Notre Dame isn't so bad.) And their 3 best Ws were Towson, Georgetown, and UNC. Looking at who they beat and who they lost to, this isn't a great team.

HP beat Duke and UVA. This is awesome. And, early in the season, they were rewarded for doing so. And then they lost to St. Johns... and Jacksonville... and Richmond. That's a problem.

Cornell is different. they beat Notre Dame and Towson... which is pretty good. and they lost to Yale x2, Penn and SU, respectable losses. It's a good season. But, when you're on the bubble, good is relative.

I thought High Point had a win over Richmond?

[Matnum PI]

SOS doesn’t give schools credit for losses. It puts a team’s win-loss record in proper perspective.

I don't understand why this is argued. I've heard it a lot and... I don't get it. When my son says, I bench pressed 18 times. I don't say, Wow! That's great! I say, Wow! That's Great! (I mean, I'm his father...) then... How much were you benching? I go to a store and say, How much is that watch? and the sales guy says, 7. And then there's an obvious pause. 7 what? 7 dollars? 7 thousand dollars? etc. My team was 12-0. No one says, Wow! That's great! At best, they say, Wow! That's Great!... Who did you play? I don't get it...

[Matnum PI]

I thought High Point had a win over Richmond?

They do. beat richmond, lost to richmond. beat j'ville, lost to j'ville.

[Stopper Harley]

When looking at the bubble teams it almost seems the committee uses the numbers that fit the narrative which they believe is in the NCAA tournament's best interest. If Hop were to swap resumes with Cornell or even OSU I think they would still be in. I don't really think there is a big conspiracy in college lacrosse. It's more likely an implicit bias.

You also can't point to a computer metric like SOS or RPI and say this team is more deserving because their numbers calculate better. It is fine to use that data to get the conversation started but it takes deep human analysis to really break down what teams are most deserving based on their full body of work.

You can't argue with their strength of schedule though. Hopkins played a lot of really great teams this year. They even beat one of them.