wgdsr, correct. play #1 through #10, beat three of them (which means, by definition, you're at least the #7 team in the Nation), throw in 5 cupcakes (which will be meaningless) and... As the #7 (or better) team in the nation, you should be in the Tourney.
D1 Men NCAA Tournament
Re: NCAA Tournament
Caddy Day
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Re: NCAA Tournament
umm... yeah, but it didn't work that way. for anybody. one school got one of 8 coveted slots for beating the number 11 and 17 teams. that's the list.
a bunch of teams beat teams better than #11. didn't help them.
Last edited by wgdsr on Sun May 05, 2019 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: NCAA Tournament
I most certainly do not. Given a choice, I want zero re-runs. Even if Penn played Yale in the finals, though obviously unavoidable, I would prefer original programming.
Caddy Day
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Re: NCAA Tournament
The 8 selected at larges according to the metrics would make it look like the committee weighed RPI over SOS, no? So why pick on SOS? Or stated another way, Cornell had the #3 SOS and didn't get in... but anyway, carry on if you must.
Last edited by calourie on Sun May 05, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
When they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:34 pmThat's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:12 pmThe whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.
Last edited by Typical Lax Dad on Sun May 05, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
My guess is that if HP was in the ACC or Big Ten, they'd be sub .500 and ineligible for the Tourney.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
It's a guess.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
You can pick on both RPI and SOS. Fruit from the same tree. Both value losses....literal points for losing. But the idea is: you have to lose to the "right teams". Which is absurd.
SOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero.
Been pointing this out for 20 years.
Re: NCAA Tournament
Gosh, wgdsr, TLD, and Cooter all agree on something.wgdsr wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:34 pmhave 10 hard games.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:12 pmThe whole SOS is weak in lacrosse. Doesn't seem like a large enough sample size and all the strong schedules are against the same teams. Add in pre season ranking bias and the bed is almost already made. Just odd. Strong schedule but you are losing....and we complain about "participation" trophies.admin wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:01 pm8-7 with the #2 SOS. This doesn't bother me.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 9:54 pmHopkins getting in at 8-7 tells me the system is broken.
go 3 and 7.
pick up 5 cupcakes.
presto.
everyone's not bothered with you as a tournament selection.
3 and 7.
Live Free or Die!
Re: NCAA Tournament
Right, but HP had two bad losses in total. You can't lose to bottom 20 teams and expect to be taken seriously.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:43 pmWhen they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:34 pmThat's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:12 pmThe whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.
Last edited by Big Dog on Sun May 05, 2019 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: NCAA Tournament
12-0 and 0-12 are meaningless. Similarly, the #1 SOS in the league is also meaningless. But, together, it is meaningful. especially if you breakdown the Ws and Ls and the individual opponents by how they contributed to the SOS.a fan wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:57 pmSOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero. Been pointing this out for 20 years.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
You mean the loss to Jacksonville whom they beat 17-3 was one of the bad losses? Duke and UVA didn't take them seriously..... Cornell stunk too?Big Dog wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 11:00 pmRight, but HP had two bad losses in total. You can't lose to bottom 20 teams and expect to be taken seriously.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:43 pmWhen they are all in the same conference it's hard to play them all if you are in another conference. It's like in the old club soccer days..... We only played clubs that would keep us in top flytes....win or lose. Its a good field and someone is always on the outside looking in. Hopkins was 8-7. High Point wasn't able to play a big ten schedule. Beat Duke and Virginia but a "bad" conference loss has them at home. Too bad they couldn't earn a good conference loss...... preseason ranking bias also helps ACC/Big 10.... ND and Hopkins were not good teams for most of the year.... I used the eyeball test as another metric.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:34 pmThat's like saying, french people live in France. Yes, the stronger teams tend to be represented on the stronger schedules.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:12 pmThe whole SOS is weak in lacrosse... all the strong schedules are against the same teams.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
And you have been wrong for 20 years.a fan wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 10:57 pmYou can pick on both RPI and SOS. Fruit from the same tree. Both value losses....literal points for losing. But the idea is: you have to lose to the "right teams". Which is absurd.
SOS is the dumbest metric ever. The ENTIRE point to it is to give teams credit for losing. What genius thought that SOS tells you anything? You can go 0-12 or 12-0, and have the exact same SOS. With that in mind, what value does it have? Zero.
Been pointing this out for 20 years.
SOS is a reality check on pretty records built against weak teams.
Ask Penn State and Maryland what they think of 8-7 Johns Hopkins. That 8-7 record was built on the toughest schedule in the entire nation ... #1 SOS. How many teams could play Penn State to a draw in regulation?
SOS doesn’t give schools credit for losses. It puts a team’s win-loss record in proper perspective.
DocBarrister
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Re: NCAA Tournament
Denver lost to P'ton, Villanova, and G'town. Those aren't great losses. (Their loss to Notre Dame isn't so bad.) And their 3 best Ws were Towson, Georgetown, and UNC. Looking at who they beat and who they lost to, this isn't a great team.
HP beat Duke and UVA. This is awesome. And, early in the season, they were rewarded for doing so. And then they lost to St. Johns... and Jacksonville... and Richmond. That's a problem.
Cornell is different. they beat Notre Dame and Towson... which is pretty good. and they lost to Yale x2, Penn and SU, respectable losses. It's a good season. But, when you're on the bubble, good is relative.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
I thought High Point had a win over Richmond?Matnum PI wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 11:13 pmDenver lost to P'ton, Villanova, and G'town. Those aren't great losses. (Their loss to Notre Dame isn't so bad.) And their 3 best Ws were Towson, Georgetown, and UNC. Looking at who they beat and who they lost to, this isn't a great team.
HP beat Duke and UVA. This is awesome. And, early in the season, they were rewarded for doing so. And then they lost to St. Johns... and Jacksonville... and Richmond. That's a problem.
Cornell is different. they beat Notre Dame and Towson... which is pretty good. and they lost to Yale x2, Penn and SU, respectable losses. It's a good season. But, when you're on the bubble, good is relative.
“I wish you would!”
Re: NCAA Tournament
I don't understand why this is argued. I've heard it a lot and... I don't get it. When my son says, I bench pressed 18 times. I don't say, Wow! That's great! I say, Wow! That's Great! (I mean, I'm his father...) then... How much were you benching? I go to a store and say, How much is that watch? and the sales guy says, 7. And then there's an obvious pause. 7 what? 7 dollars? 7 thousand dollars? etc. My team was 12-0. No one says, Wow! That's great! At best, they say, Wow! That's Great!... Who did you play? I don't get it...DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 11:12 pmSOS doesn’t give schools credit for losses. It puts a team’s win-loss record in proper perspective.
Caddy Day
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Re: NCAA Tournament
They do. beat richmond, lost to richmond. beat j'ville, lost to j'ville.
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Re: NCAA Tournament
When looking at the bubble teams it almost seems the committee uses the numbers that fit the narrative which they believe is in the NCAA tournament's best interest. If Hop were to swap resumes with Cornell or even OSU I think they would still be in. I don't really think there is a big conspiracy in college lacrosse. It's more likely an implicit bias.
You also can't point to a computer metric like SOS or RPI and say this team is more deserving because their numbers calculate better. It is fine to use that data to get the conversation started but it takes deep human analysis to really break down what teams are most deserving based on their full body of work.
You can't argue with their strength of schedule though. Hopkins played a lot of really great teams this year. They even beat one of them.
You also can't point to a computer metric like SOS or RPI and say this team is more deserving because their numbers calculate better. It is fine to use that data to get the conversation started but it takes deep human analysis to really break down what teams are most deserving based on their full body of work.
You can't argue with their strength of schedule though. Hopkins played a lot of really great teams this year. They even beat one of them.