(Presumed) Impact of Grad Student/Senior Heavy Rosters

[Asleep@theswitch]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

But after all this extra year nonsense washes out, the Ivies (and Army, Navy, etc) may be at an advantage. They are developing their younger talent while grad/5th year heavy teams are parking their younger stars on the bench. NCAA created a real mess with this policy, and there will be imbalances created over the course of several years.

[coda]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Last year's Maryland team had a ton of transfers that played big roles for them. ND this year doesn't have huge numbers but arguably two of their best players, Fake and Tevlin, are portal guys. The Uva transfer had a big game yesterday. Tevlin was named captain of the team. If you bring in the right guys who fit, it's not an issue. It's when you bring in the wrong guys that it becomes one. Speaking from a cultural perspective specifically.

Tevlin is certainly a huge piece. He is that lunch pail guy that every team needs. Fake is very good also. Maryland had Khan and Donville. Despite all their offensive success during he regular season, it was the defense that carried them to the title in the tournament. I still think the core of that team was Wisnauskas, DeMeio, Ajax, Makar, Fairman, Pugliese, Weirman, McNaney, etc. That is a pretty impressive list without the transfers and also a ton of experience. I think that is going to be the new normal. Most teams are going to upgrade 1-3 spots from the portal, when they can. I think that is different than reinventing your team every year based on the portal.

[kramerica.inc]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Don't be like that. It's so unbecoming. Loyola was accepted unanimously into the PL. And is following all the academic and admissions rules set forth by all the charter institutions, including Army.

Per those rules- Loyola does have graduate students. But cannot take in 5th year students from other schools. It can only extend Loyola undergrad students into their graduate program. Used for redshirt injuries only, before Covid.

You have complained for years Army is at a disadvantage because it didn't have older students. It appears people have finally noticed your favorite team has a way around it too.

Army had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

Not sure about this year but last year over half of Army's roster prepped a year. From strictly an age basis, Army likely had the oldest team in college lacrosse.

Lorin's continued crying about transfers and age of players is a farce when Army basically has a team of guys who stay an extra year. The fact they don't have to abide by scholarship numbers is a huge advantage. I don't begrudge academy's having advantages because they have some disadvantages too, but to cry about everyone using the portal is farcical.

You and I both know there are tradeoffs. Most obviously, with the scholarships comes the commitment.

But the rules were all agreed upon by the NCAA and the actual Patriot League members, respectively.

You don't hear Lehigh, Loyola or BU fans complaining about Army having 64 full scholarships this year, compared to everyone else's 12.

[lorin]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Don't be like that. It's so unbecoming. Loyola was accepted unanimously into the PL. And is following all the academic and admissions rules set forth by all the charter institutions, including Army.

Per those rules- Loyola does have graduate students. But cannot take in 5th year students from other schools. It can only extend Loyola undergrad students into their graduate program. Used for redshirt injuries only, before Covid.

You have complained for years Army is at a disadvantage because it didn't have older students. It appears people have finally noticed your favorite team has a way around it too.

Army had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

Not sure about this year but last year over half of Army's roster prepped a year. From strictly an age basis, Army likely had the oldest team in college lacrosse.

Lorin's continued crying about transfers and age of players is a farce when Army basically has a team of guys who stay an extra year. The fact they don't have to abide by scholarship numbers is a huge advantage. I don't begrudge academy's having advantages because they have some disadvantages too, but to cry about everyone using the portal is farcical.

You and I both know there are tradeoffs. Most obviously, with the scholarships comes the commitment.

But the rules were all agreed upon by the NCAA and the actual Patriot League members, respectively.

You don't hear Lehigh, Loyola or BU fans complaining about Army having 64 full scholarships this year, compared to everyone else's 12.

Fanlax should pay me its so easy to get under your skin, love it.

[1766]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Last year's Maryland team had a ton of transfers that played big roles for them. ND this year doesn't have huge numbers but arguably two of their best players, Fake and Tevlin, are portal guys. The Uva transfer had a big game yesterday. Tevlin was named captain of the team. If you bring in the right guys who fit, it's not an issue. It's when you bring in the wrong guys that it becomes one. Speaking from a cultural perspective specifically.

Tevlin is certainly a huge piece. He is that lunch pail guy that every team needs. Fake is very good also. Maryland had Khan and Donville. Despite all their offensive success during he regular season, it was the defense that carried them to the title in the tournament. I still think the core of that team was Wisnauskas, DeMeio, Ajax, Makar, Fairman, Pugliese, Weirman, McNaney, etc. That is a pretty impressive list without the transfers and also a ton of experience. I think that is going to be the new normal. Most teams are going to upgrade 1-3 spots from the portal, when they can. I think that is different than reinventing your team every year based on the portal.

People forget but Wisnauskas was a transfer. Owen Murphy made huge plays for them in 22. Khan and Donville were huge pieces of their team in 22 as well. Certainly they would have had a great team regardless but those transfers, especially the portal guys, but that team over the top.

I don't have an issue with it. It's the system as currently constructed. If you aren't taking advantage of it as a coach, you aren't doing your job.

[coda]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Last year's Maryland team had a ton of transfers that played big roles for them. ND this year doesn't have huge numbers but arguably two of their best players, Fake and Tevlin, are portal guys. The Uva transfer had a big game yesterday. Tevlin was named captain of the team. If you bring in the right guys who fit, it's not an issue. It's when you bring in the wrong guys that it becomes one. Speaking from a cultural perspective specifically.

Tevlin is certainly a huge piece. He is that lunch pail guy that every team needs. Fake is very good also. Maryland had Khan and Donville. Despite all their offensive success during he regular season, it was the defense that carried them to the title in the tournament. I still think the core of that team was Wisnauskas, DeMeio, Ajax, Makar, Fairman, Pugliese, Weirman, McNaney, etc. That is a pretty impressive list without the transfers and also a ton of experience. I think that is going to be the new normal. Most teams are going to upgrade 1-3 spots from the portal, when they can. I think that is different than reinventing your team every year based on the portal.

People forget but Wisnauskas was a transfer. Owen Murphy made huge plays for them in 22. Khan and Donville were huge pieces of their team in 22 as well. Certainly they would have had a great team regardless but those transfers, especially the portal guys, but that team over the top.

I don't have an issue with it. It's the system as currently constructed. If you aren't taking advantage of it as a coach, you aren't doing your job.

He transferred after 1 year at Cuse. Thought the story was he was homesick. Never got on the field at Cuse. Technically he is a transfer, but I did not think that was the type of transfer people are talking about. Played 5 years at Maryland. I thought this was more about the hired gun transfer. That was way before the portal

[OSVAlacrosse]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

[coda]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

[PizzaSnake]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

But after all this extra year nonsense washes out, the Ivies (and Army, Navy, etc) may be at an advantage. They are developing their younger talent while grad/5th year heavy teams are parking their younger stars on the bench. NCAA created a real mess with this policy, and there will be imbalances created over the course of several years.

23/24 year old men…

Still boys exercising poor judgement.

[Formerhound]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

But after all this extra year nonsense washes out, the Ivies (and Army, Navy, etc) may be at an advantage. They are developing their younger talent while grad/5th year heavy teams are parking their younger stars on the bench. NCAA created a real mess with this policy, and there will be imbalances created over the course of several years.

23/24 year old men…

Still boys exercising poor judgement.

Not quite sure what you mean by “boys exercising poor judgment”. If you mean playing an extra year of college and waiting an extra year to go out into the “real world” where they’ll work for the next 40 years? You are only young once. Don’t know many athletes that wouldn’t have played an extra year if eligible

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

There was a parent of a VMI kid here who was victim of circumstance (and mabye execution by a HC I don't know) last year which seemed like a gut punch.

[OSVAlacrosse]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

There was a parent of a VMI kid here who was victim of circumstance (and mabye execution by a HC I don't know) last year which seemed like a gut punch.

Yes, I am sure that the transfer portal is a good way to go for some players. However, charging college kids ($700) for this two day event seems over the top. It does not list who will be there. Imagine a player signs up with good intentions and his current coach is there? I guess I must be missing a few details on this one.

[blue angels]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

Different coaches handle it differently, but once you made the decision to enter the portal, Your coach also needs to be considering whether he has enough numbers and quality at your position. I certainly don't blame any coach for filling someone's spot who has entered the Portal as it's a 2 way street. Hopefully, parents of kids looking for a change have considered all options carefully, before making the choice.

[The Orfling]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

This is my main take-away as well — it’s more the mass of veteran experience than transfers, necessarily, but it’s hard to deny that some of the transfers have been impactful: Notre Dame has two starting defensemen (Fake and Conlin) and two regular midfielders (Tevlin and Simmons) coming in as 5th years from the portal; UVA has a highly effective ssdm (Zinn) and a top midfield scoring threat (McConvey); Duke went to the portal for its starting goalie. Maybe Maryland wins last year without Khan and Donville — that defense was quite something — but it would have made their margin of error narrower.

[PizzaSnake]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

But after all this extra year nonsense washes out, the Ivies (and Army, Navy, etc) may be at an advantage. They are developing their younger talent while grad/5th year heavy teams are parking their younger stars on the bench. NCAA created a real mess with this policy, and there will be imbalances created over the course of several years.

23/24 year old men…

Still boys exercising poor judgement.

Not quite sure what you mean by “boys exercising poor judgment”. If you mean playing an extra year of college and waiting an extra year to go out into the “real world” where they’ll work for the next 40 years? You are only young once. Don’t know many athletes that wouldn’t have played an extra year if eligible

Decision center not fully formed until 25 in males. There’s a reason it is very difficult for them to rent vehicles. Numbers don’t lie.

Also why law enforcement and military like ‘em under 25.

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

There was a parent of a VMI kid here who was victim of circumstance (and mabye execution by a HC I don't know) last year which seemed like a gut punch.

Yes, I am sure that the transfer portal is a good way to go for some players. However, charging college kids ($700) for this two day event seems over the top. It does not list who will be there. Imagine a player signs up with good intentions and his current coach is there? I guess I must be missing a few details on this one.

I would LOVE to see that. Current coaches turd talking their departing kids to other coaches while the kids paid for that privilige.

[kramerica.inc]

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ents/61354

Well just in time someone will learn to make a buck or two off of this. Just when you thought the $450 one day showcase money grabs were only for HS kids.

that is insane. I know there isnt a lot of scholarship money in lacrosse, but people dont talk about the kids that mess up there lives going in the portal. Love to see an article about the kids that enter the portal and dont find a home. I know a few college football teams that will not let kids that enter the portal back.

There was a parent of a VMI kid here who was victim of circumstance (and mabye execution by a HC I don't know) last year which seemed like a gut punch.

Yes, I am sure that the transfer portal is a good way to go for some players. However, charging college kids ($700) for this two day event seems over the top. It does not list who will be there. Imagine a player signs up with good intentions and his current coach is there? I guess I must be missing a few details on this one.

I would LOVE to see that. Current coaches turd talking their departing kids to other coaches while the kids paid for that privilige.

Let's hope this event turns out better than the failed 5 Star HS showcase.

[xxxxxxx]

Gtown and probably others have been so dependent on the portal that most of their rising juniors and seniors have never seen the field. It has to be an issue in that locker room and certainly at the parent's tailgates.

[rolldodge]

Gtown and probably others have been so dependent on the portal that most of their rising juniors and seniors have never seen the field. It has to be an issue in that locker room and certainly at the parent's tailgates.

6 of the 11 rising seniors started or saw significant time this year.

Only 1 of the 10 rising Juniors saw significant time. One or two others saw some time in non-reserve roles. How much of that is due to the portal is hard to say, but presumably a few more would have seen the field. Should be interesting next year as I don't expect GU to get quite the haul they did last year.

[Creasedive]

Gtown and probably others have been so dependent on the portal that most of their rising juniors and seniors have never seen the field. It has to be an issue in that locker room and certainly at the parent's tailgates.

6 of the 11 rising seniors started or saw significant time this year.

Only 1 of the 10 rising Juniors saw significant time. One or two others saw some time in non-reserve roles. How much of that is due to the portal is hard to say, but presumably a few more would have seen the field. Should be interesting next year as I don't expect GU to get quite the haul they did last year.

The addiction to transfer portal is going to bite these teams down the road. Rutgers didn’t make the tournament and Georgetown flamed out in the quarters. Better start getting your younger players some experience or you’re in for a world of hurt.