(Presumed) Impact of Grad Student/Senior Heavy Rosters

[The Orfling]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

[Formerhound]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

[FannOLax]

Like Formerhound, I'm looking forward to having moved beyond the extra Covid eligibility years. UVA won the last pre-Covid natty in 2019, plus the 2021 crown, so there's clearly an element of the strong getting stronger. Of course, Orfling's analysis looked only at tourney teams, with Rutgers' failure to make the NCAAs showing that multiple grad transfers do not guarantee success. On the other hand, Notre Dame's leap into the tourney and its semis could be attributed largely to grad transfers and "older" players. No getting that this phenomenon is a real factor with a real impact.

[The Orfling]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

That's an excellent point about Army -- although they didn't have any grad students per se, they had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

I'm happy for individual Ivy League players (like Chris Fake and Brian Tevlin from Yale, both playing for Notre Dame) to get a chance to make up the lost season of 2021, but from the competitive balance perspective it will be good to have things even out a bit more in 2025 (although I think, as many do, that we'll still see transfers having a bigger impact than was the case pre-pandemic).

[coda]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

[jhu06]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ings/60336

that's ILs list of transfer classes. Notre Dame Penn State and UVA all made it to memorial day but notre dame and uva making it aren't shocks, and rutgers cuse unc osu jville all bombed and the hop goalie couldn't beat out the d3 backup.

[keno in reno]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

[lorin]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

[wgdsr]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

it's a point being made that's speculating on what the tipping point is for minutes doled out by being recruited over in real time. no one really knows what the ramifications are. but saying if you're giving 50% of your minutes out to hired guns annually that it can affect all sorts of things more than, say 20%... isn't a taboo subject. it's something to watch.

heard but didn't check on it (with the usual caveats) that ivy pulled ~ half the 5 stars in an upcoming class. and this just a year or 2 after they almost cancelled sports.

[lorin]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

it's a point being made that's speculating on what the tipping point is for minutes doled out by being recruited over in real time. no one really knows what the ramifications are. but saying if you're giving 50% of your minutes out to hired guns annually that it can affect all sorts of things more than, say 20%... isn't a taboo subject. it's something to watch.

heard but didn't check on it (with the usual caveats) that ivy pulled ~ half the 5 stars in an upcoming class. and this just a year or 2 after they almost cancelled sports.

Did both Kavanagh do prep school?

[wgdsr]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

it's a point being made that's speculating on what the tipping point is for minutes doled out by being recruited over in real time. no one really knows what the ramifications are. but saying if you're giving 50% of your minutes out to hired guns annually that it can affect all sorts of things more than, say 20%... isn't a taboo subject. it's something to watch.

heard but didn't check on it (with the usual caveats) that ivy pulled ~ half the 5 stars in an upcoming class. and this just a year or 2 after they almost cancelled sports.

Did both Kavanagh do prep school?

not at army. undisciplined.

[Formerhound]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Oh yeah. I forgot about the Army troll.

[Farfromgeneva]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Oh yeah. I forgot about the Army troll.

Gotta get out from under the Beacon-Newburgh bridge once in a while!

[Formerhound]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

it's a point being made that's speculating on what the tipping point is for minutes doled out by being recruited over in real time. no one really knows what the ramifications are. but saying if you're giving 50% of your minutes out to hired guns annually that it can affect all sorts of things more than, say 20%... isn't a taboo subject. it's something to watch.

heard but didn't check on it (with the usual caveats) that ivy pulled ~ half the 5 stars in an upcoming class. and this just a year or 2 after they almost cancelled sports.

Did both Kavanagh do prep school?

Yes. Both Matt and Chris went to Taft. Matt for his PG year and Chris for 11th and 12th. Not sure if Chris’s was a re-class but Matt was.

[coda]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

I think this is an over-reaction. Lets take UVa
Shelly, Dickson, Cormier are the top 3 scorers. McConvey certainly adds to the picture, but I believe 8 of the top 9 scorers are recruited players.
FOGO- recruited
Goalie recruited
Top 3 poles are all recruited..

Not exactly reliant on transfers to me.

GTown is certainly reliant on transfers. They also have 1 tournament win in 2 years.

[coda]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Depends on what your definition of "portal heavy" is. If that's an all-american transfer like Thomas McConvey, that's heavy. Add in regulars like Kology, Miezan and Zinn and that's juicy.
Without transfers, Notre Dame is just 2 angry brothers and a goalie. Hopkins is bad (again) without Melendez and Mazzone. Georgetown stinks without Dordevic and Minicus. So we can lose the Rutgers narrative on transfers....every non-Ivy team recruits transfers heavily.

it's a point being made that's speculating on what the tipping point is for minutes doled out by being recruited over in real time. no one really knows what the ramifications are. but saying if you're giving 50% of your minutes out to hired guns annually that it can affect all sorts of things more than, say 20%... isn't a taboo subject. it's something to watch.

heard but didn't check on it (with the usual caveats) that ivy pulled ~ half the 5 stars in an upcoming class. and this just a year or 2 after they almost cancelled sports.

Did both Kavanagh do prep school?

Yes. Both Matt and Chris went to Taft. Matt for his PG year and Chris for 11th and 12th. Not sure if Chris’s was a re-class but Matt was.

It is standard procedure to re-class at a prep school. I am not sure Chris re-classed, but the odds are very high. He would be the exception to the rule, if he did not.

[Creasedive]

I think this is an over-reaction. Lets take UVa
Shelly, Dickson, Cormier are the top 3 scorers. McConvey certainly adds to the picture, but I believe 8 of the top 9 scorers are recruited players.
FOGO- recruited
Goalie recruited
Top 3 poles are all recruited..

Not exactly reliant on transfers to me.

GTown is certainly reliant on transfers. They also have 1 tournament win in 2 years.

Live by the portal - die by the portal.

[kramerica.inc]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Don't be like that. It's so unbecoming. Loyola was accepted unanimously into the PL. And is following all the academic and admissions rules set forth by all the charter institutions, including Army.

Per those rules- Loyola does have graduate students. But cannot take in 5th year students from other schools. It can only extend Loyola undergrad students into their graduate program. Used for redshirt injuries only, before Covid.

You have complained for years Army is at a disadvantage because it didn't have older students. It appears people have finally noticed your favorite team has a way around it too.

Army had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

[1766]

In the downtime this morning before the games began I looked at the rosters of the 16 tournament teams, looking at # of grad students; total # of most seasoned veterans (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students); total # of transfers on roster; and # of impact transfers (transfers who are starters/playing significant minutes). (One caveat -- this was just me looking at rosters and some programs are more transparent than others about making clear who is a transfer.) Correlation does not imply causation, and, as we know, "the rich get richer" -- players want to take their 5th year at a contending program -- but it was still interesting to see how significant the 5th year option and transfer portal activity both loom in the story of the 2023 lacrosse season. Some specifics:

• The top three teams with "seasoned veterans" (seniors/redshirt seniors/grad students) are 1. Duke 2. UVA 3. Notre Dame

• Out of the 8 teams with the most grad students, 7 advanced to at least the quarterfinals;

• The 5 teams with most grad students are Duke (13), Georgetown (8), Notre Dame (7), UVA (6 plus 2 redshirt seniors), and Penn State (6 plus 1 redshirt senior); out of those, 3 have advanced to the semifinals and 1 (ND) is favored to do so;

• There were 8 teams with at least 2 impact transfers -- of these 8, 5 are still alive in the tournament and all 4 of the semifinalists will have had at least 2 impact transfers (ND - 4; Hopkins 2; Duke 2; UVA 2;
  Penn State 2);

• There were 5 teams with no grad students -- 4 of them (the 3 Ivies and Utah) lost in the first round, the 5th, Army, lost (but only just!) in the quarterfinals.

I think you still have to build a team through recruiting and use the transfer portal to patch the holes. Maybe I am forgetting someone, but Rutgers stands out as the only portal heavy team to make a run to the final weekend. Maryland had some, but their core was home grown. It’s hard to establish a culture, if you are constantly churning your roster.

Last year's Maryland team had a ton of transfers that played big roles for them. ND this year doesn't have huge numbers but arguably two of their best players, Fake and Tevlin, are portal guys. The Uva transfer had a big game yesterday. Tevlin was named captain of the team. If you bring in the right guys who fit, it's not an issue. It's when you bring in the wrong guys that it becomes one. Speaking from a cultural perspective specifically.

[1766]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Don't be like that. It's so unbecoming. Loyola was accepted unanimously into the PL. And is following all the academic and admissions rules set forth by all the charter institutions, including Army.

Per those rules- Loyola does have graduate students. But cannot take in 5th year students from other schools. It can only extend Loyola undergrad students into their graduate program. Used for redshirt injuries only, before Covid.

You have complained for years Army is at a disadvantage because it didn't have older students. It appears people have finally noticed your favorite team has a way around it too.

Army had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

Not sure about this year but last year over half of Army's roster prepped a year. From strictly an age basis, Army likely had the oldest team in college lacrosse.

Lorin's continued crying about transfers and age of players is a farce when Army basically has a team of guys who stay an extra year. The fact they don't have to abide by scholarship numbers is a huge advantage. I don't begrudge academy's having advantages because they have some disadvantages too, but to cry about everyone using the portal is farcical.