NCAA Tournament

[LarryGamLax]

Gotta side with D here. It was no biggie--Belle's 7th. Falls under the category of Loser's Lament. Any kind of whining after a game that was lost is annoying--whether it's about the refs or the players scoring late or whatever--it's a discordant clanging which pretty much no one wants to hear except the losers. Folks don't like BC for different reasons, but this was a real reach of an issue to make about the player, the coach and the school. No one got slashed or sticked or elbowed or kneed. No one got hurt. Just a team ran a play in the closing seconds and scored. Some of the Loyola players were still playing like it mattered so BC decided to try a play. You can see Smith point to North which way to run the play seconds beforehand. The whole thing is much ado about nothing. But it was good for a few chuckles on a not much happening Friday night.

I have heard the stories of NBA players throwing a shot up against the backboard on purpose(at the end of a game) just to rebound it so they can get a Triple Double. I've seen confrontations about that after the game. Guys going into the visitors Lockeroom to get at a guy, who shot a 3 pointer when the game was already decided to achieve some personal goal. You see my point?
So, if after Belle Smith scored the 20th goal(with 6 secs left in the game) and a Loyola player decided to check her butt to the turf, what would most of you have said about that?

[Can Opener]

I am not a fan of late scoring with a healthy lead, but let’s ease up on how this shows what bad people AWW, CN and BS are. Doc for sure gets a hall pass for his view given the circumstances. Most parents would feel the same way. The rest of you need to be more consistent in your criticism. Where is your outrage over Northwestern scoring with 1 second left to make it 15-4 over Syracuse the same day? Or for that matter, did any of you ever protest these Loyola goals this season?

:01 left to make it 14-5 over JHU
1:26 left to make it 16-6 over Georgetown
:02 left to make it 12-9 over Florida
:48 left to make it 15-7 over Lehigh
1:07 left to make it 23-5 over BU
:19 left to make it 21-7 over Holy Cross
1:40 left to make it 21-2 over Bucknell
3:43 left to make it 20-2 over Lafayette
1:39 left to make it 13-5 over Navy
2:19 left to make it 19-5 over Lehigh
1:26 left to make it 15-8 over Navy
3:32 left to make it 18-8 over JMU

Again, I don’t love this phenomenon, but let’s be consistent in applying the poor sportsmanship label.

[DMac]

This is not about fair play, it's about high horses.

I guess you have the highest.

Seems to me as if you're the one sitting on his horse pointing out Belle's abhorrent behavior and suggesting she be schooled on moral conduct and etiquette.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Gotta side with D here. It was no biggie--Belle's 7th. Falls under the category of Loser's Lament. Any kind of whining after a game that was lost is annoying--whether it's about the refs or the players scoring late or whatever--it's a discordant clanging which pretty much no one wants to hear except the losers. Folks don't like BC for different reasons, but this was a real reach of an issue to make about the player, the coach and the school. No one got slashed or sticked or elbowed or kneed. No one got hurt. Just a team ran a play in the closing seconds and scored. Some of the Loyola players were still playing like it mattered so BC decided to try a play. You can see Smith point to North which way to run the play seconds beforehand. The whole thing is much ado about nothing. But it was good for a few chuckles on a not much happening Friday night.

I have heard the stories of NBA players throwing a shot up against the backboard on purpose(at the end of a game) just to rebound it so they can get a Triple Double. I've seen confrontations about that after the game. Guys going into the visitors Lockeroom to get at a guy, who shot a 3 pointer when the game was already decided to achieve some personal goal. You see my point?
So, if after Belle Smith scored the 20th goal(with 6 secs left in the game) and a Loyola player decided to check her butt to the turf, what would most you have said about that?

That the punishment way over exceeded the "crime".

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I am not a fan of late scoring with a healthy lead, but let’s ease up on how this shows what bad people AWW, CN and BS are. Doc for sure gets a hall pass for his view given the circumstances. Most parents would feel the same way. The rest of you need to be more consistent in your criticism. Where is your outrage over Northwestern scoring with 1 second left to make it 15-4 over Syracuse the same day? Or for that matter, did any of you ever protest these Loyola goals this season?

:01 left to make it 14-5 over JHU
1:26 left to make it 16-6 over Georgetown
:02 left to make it 12-9 over Florida
:48 left to make it 15-7 over Lehigh
1:07 left to make it 23-5 over BU
:19 left to make it 21-7 over Holy Cross
1:40 left to make it 21-2 over Bucknell
3:43 left to make it 20-2 over Lafayette
1:39 left to make it 13-5 over Navy
2:19 left to make it 19-5 over Lehigh
1:26 left to make it 15-8 over Navy
3:32 left to make it 18-8 over JMU

Again, I don’t love this phenomenon, but let’s be consistent in applying the poor sportsmanship label.

This is an embarrassing unmasking of the double standard Loyola Greyhound practice to continue scoring way after the game is well in hand. 19 seconds left to make it 21-7 over Holy Cross alone is brutal enough without the other glaring examples.

The players were upset after Belle Smith scored? Spare me. Now they know what it feels like. Guess this was actually a case of comeuppance. What goes around comes around.

Stunning that these especially unsportsmanlike instances (JHU, BU, HC) were overlooked while pointing the finger at Belle Smith. Chalk it up to the view getting distorted from high places.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Haha. Now we have the Hopkins brigade dredging up stuff from months ago. Actually that proves that this incident will live on for some time.

I don't remember the goal you mention from earlier in the year, but if it was as you describe it, then, yeah, that too was bad sportsmanship. I guess I can see why you are a little biased as to the BC -- Loyola incident. But you do see that you are being hypocritical, right? If one was bad sportsmanship, then the other one was as well.

And, sigh, your question has been answered multiple times.

Loyola was not aggressively defending or swinging sticks. They were simply guarding the player with the ball. They were only defending at all because BC was continuing to attack. And even if Loyola had been applying strong pressure (they weren't), that still doesn't excuse BC's going to goal. BC should have simply stayed outside until the clock ran out.

[DMac]

So, if after Belle Smith scored the 20th goal(with 6 secs left in the game) and a Loyola player decided to check her butt to the turf, what would most you have said about that?

What likely would have happened is the Loyola faithful would have seen it as a check out of frustration and found it not so horrible inasmuch as the shooter was acting immorally in attempting to score when the game was already in hand. JMHO.
Imagine if CN had taken it to the cage and scored with six seconds left, this discussion would look like a Girl Scout campfire compared to the blaze that would have ignited.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I do not remember this indignation when Loyola scored with one second left against Hopkins to make it 14-5(No it was not your daughter but I believe she was still in the game). Regardless it was a Loyola starter that scored it. If the defense is still playing hard why are you lamenting the offense scoring a meaningless goal? Do I think belle should have scored there? No. But you can’t have the defense chasing and swinging at girls and then chastising the offense for scoring a goal. My 2 cents.

In that game in the last 3.5 minutes Jillian scored twice, and Livy and Georgia both scored once. Hopkins had subbed out. Pot meet kettle.

Haha. Now we have the Hopkins brigade dredging up stuff from months ago. Actually that proves that this incident will live on for some time.

I don't remember the goal you mention from earlier in the year, but if it was as you describe it, then, yeah, that too was bad sportsmanship. I guess I can see why you are a little biased as to the BC -- Loyola incident. But you do see that you are being hypocritical, right? If one was bad sportsmanship, then the other one was as well.

And, sigh, your question has been answered multiple times.

Loyola was not aggressively defending or swinging sticks. They were simply guarding the player with the ball. They were only defending at all because BC was continuing to attack. And even if Loyola had been applying strong pressure (they weren't), that still doesn't excuse BC's going to goal. BC should have simply stayed outside until the clock ran out.

Now that we see the entire final possession, there was plenty of stick swinging and even some nastiness in there from the Greyhounds. Swinging stick at Smith (1:50 game clock); swinging stick and whacking hands on BC's #7 Caitlin Mossman at 1:30 (game clock); BC's Medjid whacked on the back/head at 1:01; Yellow card--stick to Smith's head at :58; whack to BC's #38 Martello at :52; and assorted other swinging sticks sprinkled in. Now that we see all that-- there should be comments following about Loyola's unsportsmanlike play in a game that was over, right? Riiiiiight.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Nope. That's not ok. I've had to have a coach-to-player conversation about that type of thing (granted, younger kid and lower stakes). It's one thing if things are spread out and the cage is wide open, but this was not an easy goal. Most players/programs don't run that last play. It was a huge, very loud F you. Does it really matter, no not really. But it was absolutely, 100%, beyond debate classless. Not terribly surprised to see who some of the dissenters are about that.

Hear that, D? Our opinions are invalidated because we’re classless. Nice, huh? More high horse pronouncements.

[DMac]

Yup, in these kind of cases the clique unites and perpetuates the image of uppityness and better than thou the world of wlax has earned. It's once again on full display here.
Fact of the matter is this was a gorgeous goal which probably doesn't happen if the Loyola D just backs off and lets BC just toss the ball around to run the clock out but that's not what happened. The view from the high horses is apparently different than the view from the low grounds of the unwashed masses. So goes it in the wlax world (not from all but from plenty).

[Lax101]

Love the fact that someone showed the final minute of the game. Loyola loves to illegal stick check to the hand and body of offensive players. They do it the entire game and then you throw in a yellow card at the end of the game and you are surprised that BC buries a last second goal. Loyola was certainly competing until the final seconds of the game and BC did the same. I'm not a fan of last second goals and probably would have had the BC players just circle the ball but I think in light of the way Loyola was playing I would give BC a break.

[Bart]

I agree with Doc. This is black and white. Bad sportsmanship. Sorry, but no reasonable person could disagree with that. I can kinda understand the attitude of the uber BC fanboy (defend the homeland at all costs), though that doesn’t make him right. Not by a longshot.

BC is the reigning national champion. I think they have a greater responsibility to do the right thing.

This was disrespecting your opponent, not to mention showing appalling disrespect for the person who many think is the greatest player of all time. A bad look for BC. A bad look for Smith. A bad look for North. Maybe a bad look for Walker (depending on her instructions). And even a bad look for the sport.

Unfortunately, BC is not alone in committing acts of bad sportsmanship. It is all too common in the sport these days. Players flopping. Players faking that they have been hit or fouled. And worse (much worse) coaches teaching their players to pretend they have been fouled.

Loyola was not aggressively defending in the last 20-30 secs. They were following the ball, but they were playing off. And they were only defending at all because BC was still attacking.

With ten seconds to go, North is outside the 12. She crosses into the 8 (why?) and passes to Smith (why?) with 8 secs left. Smith shoots (why?) less than a second later. North should not have made that pass and Smith should not have taken that shot. Period. End of story.

What BC should have done is what the large majority of teams do in such situations. Pass the ball around way outside. Play keep away. Oftentimes games like this end with a player on the winning team winging the ball high into the air trying to break the Guinness World Record for highest ball toss.

In basketball, the player casually dribbles at mid-court. They don’t drive to the hoop for one last basket. In soccer, they pass the ball around aimlessly in the midfield as time runs out. They don’t go to goal. In football, they take a knee at the two yard line. They don’t punch it in for a meaningless touchdown.

Is this the worst thing that has ever happened in the sport. No. Of course not. But it was bad. It’s not a permanent black mark on the BC program, but it’s one that will last the rest of this year and perhaps into next season.

There is alot to agree with here. Well written as usual. I will say it again, would not have happened if I were in charge. The starting 7 would have been packing the bus getting ready to go home.

But the overwhelming sentiment is that there was only one choice involved. I do not see Loyola playing off. They were on ball defending. The goalie was out in the fray. She was hot sitting in her crease passively waiting for the time to go. Question is, would we be having this conversation if the Loyola team was sitting back at the 8? Could Coach Adams have said enough? Just sit back and take the loss? This happens this conversation probably does not take place....or perhaps it does What the heck do I know what AWW is thinking or doing.

A little story. A long time ago on a planet far away I had the opportunity to play with some really good players. We beat some teams really badly. End of a game guys just "playing keep away" but getting the schzit beat out of them (mens game). Stoppage of play for some sort and coach yells to the guy with the ball.."if they keep this up go ahead and score as many as you want.....(or something similar). Guess what, no more goals that day. Why tell that story? There are always more than one choice involved here.

[Bart]

Gotta side with D here. It was no biggie--Belle's 7th. Falls under the category of Loser's Lament. Any kind of whining after a game that was lost is annoying--whether it's about the refs or the players scoring late or whatever--it's a discordant clanging which pretty much no one wants to hear except the losers. Folks don't like BC for different reasons, but this was a real reach of an issue to make about the player, the coach and the school. No one got slashed or sticked or elbowed or kneed. No one got hurt. Just a team ran a play in the closing seconds and scored. Some of the Loyola players were still playing like it mattered so BC decided to try a play. You can see Smith point to North which way to run the play seconds beforehand. The whole thing is much ado about nothing. But it was good for a few chuckles on a not much happening Friday night.

I have heard the stories of NBA players throwing a shot up against the backboard on purpose(at the end of a game) just to rebound it so they can get a Triple Double. I've seen confrontations about that after the game. Guys going into the visitors Lockeroom to get at a guy, who shot a 3 pointer when the game was already decided to achieve some personal goal. You see my point?
So, if after Belle Smith scored the 20th goal(with 6 secs left in the game) and a Loyola player decided to check her butt to the turf, what would most you have said about that?

I would have said if you keep poking the dog and get bit don't complain to me.

[Dr. Tact]

I do not remember this indignation when Loyola scored with one second left against Hopkins to make it 14-5(No it was not your daughter but I believe she was still in the game). Regardless it was a Loyola starter that scored it. If the defense is still playing hard why are you lamenting the offense scoring a meaningless goal? Do I think belle should have scored there? No. But you can’t have the defense chasing and swinging at girls and then chastising the offense for scoring a goal. My 2 cents.

In that game in the last 3.5 minutes Jillian scored twice, and Livy and Georgia both scored once. Hopkins had subbed out. Pot meet kettle.

Since you brought it up. I was embarrassed at that game. Not so much the last 3.5 minutes, although it was and has been consistent with a coach who pushes stat chasing. The last second goal was embarrassing. I didn't air my feelings here, but you are 100% right. It wasn't good sportsmanship. I cant speak to whether that was subsequently discussed with GL or if the coaching staff supported it.

Hop game or BC game, I am consistent in my (as some say haughty) belief that it is/was unnecessary.

[Dr. Tact]

I am not a fan of late scoring with a healthy lead, but let’s ease up on how this shows what bad people AWW, CN and BS are. Doc for sure gets a hall pass for his view given the circumstances. Most parents would feel the same way. The rest of you need to be more consistent in your criticism. Where is your outrage over Northwestern scoring with 1 second left to make it 15-4 over Syracuse the same day? Or for that matter, did any of you ever protest these Loyola goals this season?

:01 left to make it 14-5 over JHU
1:26 left to make it 16-6 over Georgetown
:02 left to make it 12-9 over Florida
:48 left to make it 15-7 over Lehigh
1:07 left to make it 23-5 over BU
:19 left to make it 21-7 over Holy Cross
1:40 left to make it 21-2 over Bucknell
3:43 left to make it 20-2 over Lafayette
1:39 left to make it 13-5 over Navy
2:19 left to make it 19-5 over Lehigh
1:26 left to make it 15-8 over Navy
3:32 left to make it 18-8 over JMU

Again, I don’t love this phenomenon, but let’s be consistent in applying the poor sportsmanship label.

Good research. If my memory is correct, in all but Hopkins and Florida, the bench was emptied. I can tell you that I do remember which of the starters were in late in those games. It rarely was #13. It was some of the "stars" in many of those games and from my perspective it was serving two purposes...continuity with the back ups and some stat chasing. I do have an issue with the latter. Anyway, while the above certainly looks damning to any argument about scoring late, the only really egregious ones are #22 at Hop and #25 at FLA. The Holy Cross one was by a 3rd line middie that probably, for sake of argument falls into "unnecessary scoring too late". As I mentioned in another response, I was embarrassed at the Hop goal and likely felt the same in the Florida game. I cant say for sure, and you wouldn't believe me anyway, but I likely had a big head shake at the completely unnecessary score. I just have a personal thing about doing that, and to your last sentence, it is poor sportsmanship....So, as your research shows, it happened by the "lamenting" Hounds as well. Not a good look. Not something I support. Certainly not something I would appreciate my daughter doing. On this you do need to believe me....

[Dr. Tact]

Nope. That's not ok. I've had to have a coach-to-player conversation about that type of thing (granted, younger kid and lower stakes). It's one thing if things are spread out and the cage is wide open, but this was not an easy goal. Most players/programs don't run that last play. It was a huge, very loud F you. Does it really matter, no not really. But it was absolutely, 100%, beyond debate classless. Not terribly surprised to see who some of the dissenters are about that.

Hear that, D? Our opinions are invalidated because we’re classless. Nice, huh? More high horse pronouncements.

Read the comment again. LAH was saying (in their opinion) that it was a classless play. You may or may not agree with that, but he/she did not come out and call you classless. He/she indicated that they were not surprised about your dissention with that. Don't overreact. You, of all people, who is generally pedantic on words you or others have said, should be aware that LAH did not state that your opinion was invalidated nor that you were/are classless.

[njbill]

Once the card was issued with about a minute to go, BC was going to be man up the rest of the way. The shot clock was off. No reason to go to goal. Absolutely no excuse for doing so. Textbook bad sportsmanship.

For most of the last minute (after the card), BC simply passed the ball around well outside the 12. Only once did they pass/run the ball into the critical scoring area and that was well behind the goal, close to the end line. And they left the CSA almost immediately. In the last minute, Loyola occasionally directly engaged, but generally only applied light pressure. Loyola never applied the type of intense pressure you’d see if a team was down by one goal and was desperately trying to get the ball back.

Up until the last ten seconds, the play from both teams was pretty much routine end-of-already-decided-game fare. The only time BC entered the 8 was with about ten seconds to go. Why didn’t BC simply continue to play the same way (pass the ball around outside) for the last ten seconds?

Rewatching now, you see a powwow between North, Medjid, and Smith when the clock was stopped for the card. In retrospect, it sure seems they plotted their last second crime there.

I did get a chuckle from the fact that yesterday afternoon one of the BC posters said “Two more obvious FU goals yesterday. One at the end of BC/Loyola and one at the end of NU/Syracuse. Both as blatant as you can get,” but a few hours later was singing an entirely different tune.

In terms of the other examples cited (I’m only familiar with a few), I think there is a big difference between goals scored when the shot clock is on and those that are scored after it’s off. I would imagine the rules committee discussed the implications of a shot clock on end of game play in blowout or otherwise already decided games. My view is that it is OK to shoot before the shot clock expires in the last minutes of a game regardless of the score. (Whether subs should be in at that point is another issue. Yes, in my book.) I don’t think good sportsmanship calls for a team to simply hold the ball for 90 secs and then roll it into the corner. In basketball teams still shoot when the shot clock is on. Seems pretty similar in lacrosse.

As to the examples of goals scored when the shot clock was off, yeah, those sure seem to be examples of bad sportsmanship. But that Loyola (or other teams) may have scored last second goals in similar circumstances doesn’t justify what BC did. Two wrongs don’t make a right, or excuse the second wrong. Bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship.

[hmmm]

Haha. Now we have the Hopkins brigade dredging up stuff from months ago. Actually that proves that this incident will live on for some time.

I don't remember the goal you mention from earlier in the year, but if it was as you describe it, then, yeah, that too was bad sportsmanship. I guess I can see why you are a little biased as to the BC -- Loyola incident. But you do see that you are being hypocritical, right? If one was bad sportsmanship, then the other one was as well.

And, sigh, your question has been answered multiple times.

Loyola was not aggressively defending or swinging sticks. They were simply guarding the player with the ball. They were only defending at all because BC was continuing to attack. And even if Loyola had been applying strong pressure (they weren't), that still doesn't excuse BC's going to goal. BC should have simply stayed outside until the clock ran out.

Ok, If you want something more recent, Katie Detwiler scored with 9 seconds left in the NCAA tourney game against MSM to make it 17-5. People score goals late all the time. And why was Katie in a 16-5 game in the first place?

And I'm not being hypocritical. I do think it's bad sportsmanship. My post said I didn't think Belle should have scored there.

[njbill]

OK, sorry if I misread your post. I thought you were saying Smith's goal was excusable and not bad sportsmanship.

[Dr. Tact]

Love the fact that someone showed the final minute of the game. Loyola loves to illegal stick check to the hand and body of offensive players. They do it the entire game and then you throw in a yellow card at the end of the game and you are surprised that BC buries a last second goal. Loyola was certainly competing until the final seconds of the game and BC did the same. I'm not a fan of last second goals and probably would have had the BC players just circle the ball but I think in light of the way Loyola was playing I would give BC a break.

Every team in Women's lacrosse push the letter of the rules. Many Loyola players do use a check to the hands. They are not the only team that does that. If it is seen and not called, it isn't a foul. If it is called, it is punished.

Any women's team crosschecks on nearly every play. Rule 6.1.d, by definition, could likely be called on every defender on every play. Is that called? Sometimes...There are teams that we discuss all the time that are known for their physicality, by rule pushing/crosschecking is a foul. That's Big Girl lax. We all love it.

The 4th yellow card was for check to the head, not illegal stick check to hands. Team's usually will use that extra woman to play keep away, and they did for all but the last 12 seconds.