Is America a racist nation?

[Farfromgeneva]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

How would Nazi statues in Germany go over?

How do Jews feel about Mel Brooks doing this musical number?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF1OtP2Svk

[DMac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpSR0oI5zy8

[youthathletics]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

[Farfromgeneva]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

So us white guys are telling black people “get over yourselves and forgive us-thats what these statues should represent to you black folk”? And that’s not condescending or parochial?

What I’m reading is your perspective for the white perpetrators but what about the other > 50% of our current population that’s got a different skin tone?

[Matnum PI]

Black couple sue appraiser who valued home $500,000 less than when white friend posed as owner.

[PizzaSnake]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

The problem with the statues is that they continue to be viewed as touchstones for a segment of society that wishes for the reimposition of the “noble antebellum” fantasy. If these statues were treated as reminders of the barbarity of humanity instead if the glorification or hagiography of the military figures who sought to preserve barbarity, you would have a point. For example, the installation in Montgomery, Alabama, that memorializes the known victims of lynching (a byproduct of this “lost cause” fetish), is a stark and powerful reminder if these scars that linger to this day. So, if you don’t understand the enormity and burden of being a descendant of slaves, I urge you to visit the link below and do some research. It includes testimony from said descendants and a glimpse into a radically different life.

https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/museu ... gJievD_BwE

Look at this image of the primary installation: each of those hanging metal blocks represents a lynching victim.



So, as you’re fond of asking, “care to double down?” Imagine you or your child, awakened by “nightriders”, dragged from the homes, and hung (most probably choking to death in an excruciating ordeal) and then the family observing the “strange fruit” left to twist and rot.

That, my privileged white male, is the reality of these statues.

[Farfromgeneva]

Black couple sue appraiser who valued home $500,000 less than when white friend posed as owner.

I’ve read this, it’s crazy. Especially in a world where there’s literally tens of billions of dollars looking to automate the valution process. Way to prove your worthless to an industry.

[Farfromgeneva]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

The problem with the statues is that they continue to be viewed as touchstones for a segment of society that wishes for the reimposition of the “noble antebellum” fantasy. If these statues were treated as reminders of the barbarity of humanity instead if the glorification or hagiography of the military figures who sought to preserve barbarity, you would have a point. For example, the installation in Montgomery, Alabama, that memorializes the known victims of lynching (a byproduct of this “lost cause” fetish), is a stark and powerful reminder if these scars that linger to this day. So, if you don’t understand the enormity and burden of being a descendant of slaves, I urge you to visit the link below and do some research. It includes testimony from said descendants and a glimpse into a radically different life.

https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/museu ... gJievD_BwE

Look at this image of the primary installation: each of those hanging metal blocks represents a lynching victim.



So, as you’re fond of asking, “care to double down?” Imagine you or your child, awakened by “nightriders”, dragged from the homes, and hung (most probably choking to death in an excruciating ordeal) and then the family observing the “strange fruit” left to twist and rot.

That, my privileged white male, is the reality of these statues.

I’m not sure I even like the Montgomery installation or in Germany the gross thing they erected as a Holocaust memorial. I understand them, to the extent I can understand the concept, but still think just not having anything and using that time, energy and money to more directly amend the past would be more productively allocated elsewhere. How about a shelter against violence or the resources go more directly to the people affected? Not reparations but already earmarked/allocated resources finding a more direct use?

[youthathletics]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

So us white guys are telling black people “get over yourselves and forgive us-thats what these statues should represent to you black folk”? And that’s not condescending or parochial?

What I’m reading is your perspective for the white perpetrators but what about the other > 50% of our current population that’s got a different skin tone?

I am not that guy FFG, you should know that by now. And I'm quite sure that you understand how working through the past helps us to all heal; forgive. To stuff it away or hide it in some corner, aint gonna fix it.

[youthathletics]

If these statues were treated as reminders of the barbarity of humanity instead if the glorification or hagiography of the military figures who sought to preserve barbarity, you would have a point.

That, my privileged white male, is the reality of these statues.

Thanks for backing me up. And the racial comment is grossly out of line.

[PizzaSnake]

If these statues were treated as reminders of the barbarity of humanity instead if the glorification or hagiography of the military figures who sought to preserve barbarity, you would have a point.

That, my privileged white male, is the reality of these statues.

Thanks for backing me up. And the racial comment is grossly out of line.

Racial comment? Guessing your demographic is racial? Well, I guess in one sense of the word, “being cognizant of race”, then yes.

So, are you male? “White”? Privileged (I’m guessing since you have the leisure to frequent this site)?

I am all of those things, but I understand the enormity of the accident of my gender, “race”, and location and time of my birth.


For the religious among us, “but for the grace of dog go I”.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Black couple sue appraiser who valued home $500,000 less than when white friend posed as owner.

I’ve read this, it’s crazy. Especially in a world where there’s literally tens of billions of dollars looking to automate the valution process. Way to prove your worthless to an industry.

And people argue about wealth transfer…. Back in the old days, Boston Insurance was subject to redlining. In the case of claims, the only thing covered was the mortgage. I have mentioned a house burning down with a relatively small mortgage and the bank was paid out and no money was provided for the homeowner to rebuild. Had to sell for a loss and rent a place. This event sticks with people for a lifetime.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

So us white guys are telling black people “get over yourselves and forgive us-thats what these statues should represent to you black folk”? And that’s not condescending or parochial?

What I’m reading is your perspective for the white perpetrators but what about the other > 50% of our current population that’s got a different skin tone?

I am not that guy FFG, you should know that by now. And I'm quite sure that you understand how working through the past helps us to all heal; forgive. To stuff it away or hide it in some corner, aint gonna fix it.

You a CRT man?

[MDlaxfan76]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

I agree with TLD's and Geneva's initial responses above, but appreciate the sentiment you are at least reaching for.

But I think that's sadly naive in society, though admirable in your personal life.

The problem to be addressed is not that you and I, and folks like us, need to be 'reminded' of the mistakes of the past, but rather that 1) many in our society continue to revere and honor the symbolism that was actually intended upon their creation and placement and 2) the 'scars' will not heal for those actually most impacted, especially given that so many in our society continue to revere and honor those symbols of oppression. They are instead reminders of continued bigotry and hate from fellow Americans.

I'm fine with melting down statues and creating something new, along with a fulsome explanation of what was done and why, ala what Charlottesville is doing. Or the placing of a statue into the context of a museum that makes clear the ugly history behind the statue. Either of those outcomes provides the continued "reminder" of the mistakes of the past. And, btw, so does teaching this history fully and honestly in middle and high school.

But the statues etc should NOT be placed into a museum or other situation which uses the statue to continue the veneration of its symbolism.

[MDlaxfan76]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

But consider in your optimistic approach the black 40-50yr old dude who’s trying to be the best father he can to his kids and give them the most optimal emotional support so they can grow up healthy and he walks by these things and the wounds never heal because he feels the hurt his father and grandfather felt with the oppression those statues and symbols affected in their lives. Consider Jim Crow and statues thrown up in folks faces into the second half of the last century, 100yrs after the civil war, is only a generation or two ago so this is very real and has been articulated throughout the south numerous times. Now is this position your suggesting reasonable or highly parochial and telling black peoples how to feel about the abuses they had inflicted on them?

You are missing the entire point or I am not explaining myself well enough.....maybe re-read it a couple more times. The point, as in damned near everything in life....is to work through the pain, not stuff it away to only resurface in our relationships with others, in the form of anger, addiction, or whatever....not allow it to control you; forgiveness.

The problem with the statues is that they continue to be viewed as touchstones for a segment of society that wishes for the reimposition of the “noble antebellum” fantasy. If these statues were treated as reminders of the barbarity of humanity instead if the glorification or hagiography of the military figures who sought to preserve barbarity, you would have a point. For example, the installation in Montgomery, Alabama, that memorializes the known victims of lynching (a byproduct of this “lost cause” fetish), is a stark and powerful reminder if these scars that linger to this day. So, if you don’t understand the enormity and burden of being a descendant of slaves, I urge you to visit the link below and do some research. It includes testimony from said descendants and a glimpse into a radically different life.

https://museumandmemorial.eji.org/museu ... gJievD_BwE

Look at this image of the primary installation: each of those hanging metal blocks represents a lynching victim.



So, as you’re fond of asking, “care to double down?” Imagine you or your child, awakened by “nightriders”, dragged from the homes, and hung (most probably choking to death in an excruciating ordeal) and then the family observing the “strange fruit” left to twist and rot.

That, my privileged white male, is the reality of these statues.

I’m not sure I even like the Montgomery installation or in Germany the gross thing they erected as a Holocaust memorial. I understand them, to the extent I can understand the concept, but still think just not having anything and using that time, energy and money to more directly amend the past would be more productively allocated elsewhere. How about a shelter against violence or the resources go more directly to the people affected? Not reparations but already earmarked/allocated resources finding a more direct use?

Montgomery is worth the visit. Eye opening.

[MDlaxfan76]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

How would Nazi statues in Germany go over?

How do Jews feel about Mel Brooks doing this musical number?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF1OtP2Svk

I think they well understand who the butt of the satire is, and where Brooks' heart is.
Someone else might well have not been able to pull such off.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have been meaning to throw this out here on this forum. This morning I have a few moments to do so. There has been a suggestion here by some posters about a solution to the issue of confederate statues and monuments. i agree for the most part about the solution. These items should be but in a central location, be that a museum, to be displayed in their proper context in history. My question here, who is to decide what that proper context is? Is that the US government? Is that the sons and daughters of the confederacy? Who would establish this museum? Is it possible that a sanctuary for all these confederates would then be created? Instead of statues standing in a public square that pigeons poop on and drunken college students urinate on there is now a holy spot where all the modern day relatives of the con federacy can go and pay homage to their ancestors. Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for. You now would have one location where throngs of people could have picinics in the summer celebrating Robert E Lee and the old south. You would also have throngs of counter protesters outside the new museum protesting anybody that would go in to visit. What say all of you folks? I'm a NY Yankee, if they busted all these statues down and sold them for scrap I would be just as fine with that.

Definitely not the US Govt. Shouldn't decisions like that be left up to state and city govt's?

I'm basically agnostic re the monument issue, but if people are offended by certain statues/monuments/relics placed in the "public square", of course action should be taken.

State and/or city govts should decide, firstly, whether there is valid basis for demands for removal, and secondly by vote, whether the relics should left in place, destroyed, or placed in a museum setting.

A recent example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... laveowner/

Personally, I would never have voted for this. In the case of Jefferson, his body of work outweighs his participation in malevolent 18th/19th Century norms.

Vandalism should never be acceptable. Convicted offenders should face jail time.

A national historic park like Gettysburg should be left untouched, and in the case of national parks and museums, have federal protections.

My line of thinking is like this....

Let's say you get bit by a snake, it hurts like hell. you treat it, but there is a huge scar, trauma, and bandage......the pain slowly subsides, the scar begins to heal as you treat the wound, and before you know it, the pain is gone...but every once and while you look down and see that small scar, which reminds you of the pain endured .... but look how far you have come. I treat most things in life like this....opportunity to suffer, and in turn being fortunate to grow. I do the very same with emotional injuries.

What does that have to do with statues? I think they should be a reminder of pain in a time where there was a scar on us, trauma....and simply removing them out of sight does not allow us to educate ourselves and grieve through the pain, recognizing how far we truly have come. I say an option is to keep them up....not for the sake memorializing them, but as an opportunity to be reminded to not ever do that again. Change the plaques to read something that helps us grow.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

How would Nazi statues in Germany go over?

How do Jews feel about Mel Brooks doing this musical number?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF1OtP2Svk

I think they well understand who the butt of the satire is, and where Brooks' heart is.
Someone else might well have not been able to pull such off.

Love the satire.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Caught this on PBS a few years ago. Completely oblivious to it until that point.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpSR0oI5zy8

I've told this story years ago on LP.

I was a member of the Maryland club from '79 to '20. Back in about '90, my wife and I and several other members who happened to be Dartmouth alums and their wives, all of whom worked as business people, docs, lawyers, went to a crab feast in the main dining hall. We'd been living in Boston, so I'd been an out of town member and had just moved back to Baltimore. At the time no black members. I had told my father that I'd only join if I could make it an objective to integrate the club, both race and gender. Handful of Jewish members and my lead sponsor was Jewish, owner of the Hecht company and a neighbor. He responded "well, let's get you in before they get to know you", after junior year of college. My Gilman classmate and future business partner (Harvard undergrad, Harvard Law, Stanford Business...lacrosse at Harvard) was to be the second African American member a couple of years later in the '90's, with my sponsorship.

Place was packed, relatively young crowd, dixieland band. All black servers (senior manager and accounting staff white, squash pro white). Crabs were great, band played a bunch of things, banjos etc...then they struck up Dixie...and over half the members stood up and placed their hands over their hearts and sang along.

We were stunned at our table, Horrified. Frozen. Embarrassed.

As the band finished, I got up and went over to where the black servers lined the room and apologized to them, took each by the hand and said I was sorry, that many of us were horrified by what had just occurred. The pain in their eyes.

I knew that my gesture wasn't enough, but it was all I could offer in that moment. Our table decided to leave before dessert. Upset.

Over the years that followed, the club made some progress in membership but super selectively and outreach was pretty minimal. I can certainly say that the standards for admission for a black guy versus white were way, way different. But progress.

I never associated the warm greetings I received from staff to be unique to me, though when the senior most wait staff manager retired in 2018, at her retirement event, she came up to me and hugged me (as she generally did whenever my dad or I brought the family to dinner) and told me that she remembered the night with the dixieland band and how much it had meant to her and the rest of the staff for me to come over...I was surprised. Still wish I'd done more.

My own usage of the club was 98% squash oriented, gave me a competitive outlet, though the occasional dinner. So, I avoided the most egregious stuffed shirts. Let's just say that I wasn't invited to join club leadership...

And no progress on gender, indeed many of the young members were adamant. That said, wives were given signing privileges and all the silly rules about separate coat closets, back door only for women, admission only with a member, etc were tossed and there was much more family friendly entertainment, though some of the sexist stuff like Boxing Night persisted, though I avoided. I was a pain in the neck on the topic, but they were adamant. I finally got fed up with no membership for women (40 years!) and resigned, writing a letter to the Board explaining the decision. Coincidentally, two months later the club announced that the club would begin admission of women. Good.

Man, progress is slow.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpSR0oI5zy8

I've told this story years ago on LP.

I was a member of the Maryland club from '79 to '20. Back in about '90, my wife and I and several other members who happened to be Dartmouth alums and their wives, all of whom worked as business people, docs, lawyers, went to a crab feast in the main dining hall. We'd been living in Boston, so I'd been an out of town member and had just moved back to Baltimore. At the time no black members. I had told my father that I'd only join if I could make it an objective to integrate the club, both race and gender. Handful of Jewish members and my lead sponsor was Jewish, owner of the Hecht company and a neighbor. He responded "well, let's get you in before they get to know you", after junior year of college. My Gilman classmate and future business partner (Harvard undergrad, Harvard Law, Stanford Business...lacrosse at Harvard) was to be the second African American member a couple of years later in the '90's, with my sponsorship.

Place was packed, relatively young crowd, dixieland band. All black servers (senior manager and accounting staff white, squash pro white). Crabs were great, band played a bunch of things, banjos etc...then they struck up Dixie...and over half the members stood up and placed their hands over their hearts and sang along.

We were stunned at our table, Horrified. Frozen. Embarrassed.

As the band finished, I got up and went over to where the black servers lined the room and apologized to them, took each by the hand and said I was sorry, that many of us were horrified by what had just occurred. The pain in their eyes.

I knew that my gesture wasn't enough, but it was all I could offer in that moment. Our table decided to leave before dessert. Upset.

Over the years that followed, the club made some progress in membership but super selectively and outreach was pretty minimal. I can certainly say that the standards for admission for a black guy versus white were way, way different. But progress.

I never associated the warm greetings I received from staff to be unique to me, though when the senior most wait staff manager retired in 2018, at her retirement event, she came up to me and hugged me (as she generally did whenever my dad or I brought the family to dinner) and told me that she remembered the night with the dixieland band and how much it had meant to her and the rest of the staff for me to come over...I was surprised. Still wish I'd done more.

My own usage of the club was 98% squash oriented, gave me a competitive outlet, though the occasional dinner. So, I avoided the most egregious stuffed shirts. Let's just say that I wasn't invited to join club leadership...

And no progress on gender, indeed many of the young members were adamant. That said, wives were given signing privileges and all the silly rules about separate coat closets, back door only for women, admission only with a member, etc were tossed and there was much more family friendly entertainment, though some of the sexist stuff like Boxing Night persisted, though I avoided. I was a pain in the neck on the topic, but they were adamant. I finally got fed up with no membership for women (40 years!) and resigned, writing a letter to the Board explaining the decision. Coincidentally, two months later the club announced that the club would begin admission of women. Good.

Man, progress is slow.

That small acknowledgment goes a long way.