SCOTUS

[MDlaxfan76]

Possible, but I'd be interested in seeing your source for those numbers. And of course, public opinion can swing wildly, especially when things change in the laws or courts. Just as public opinion has swung in favor of abortions, since reo v wade, the opposite could occur if it is overturned for a similar 40-50 yr stretch.

Sure, and by your logic slavery could become 'popular' again too if implemented for 40-50 years. After all, only the slaves would have an issue with it.

In this case the 600,000K+ aborted children per year don't have a voice. You care about imaginary slaves in your strawman scenario, why not real children in utero that are dismembered and vacuumed out each year?

You are a member of the party who pounds the table for real facts. Why so touchy about these?

Everyone knows why.

Talk about an "Inconvenient Truth."

slaves weren't imaginary. And did they have a voice?

I'm simply piercing the specious logic you presented that public opinion might change if abortions were outlawed for 40-50 years. That was your point.

It's poor logic on its face, as of course the uproar would be overwhelming right away, there's no going back to slavery nor to 100% outlawed abortions. It's possible that will be tested in the coming years, but it's not going to stand.

BTW, public opinion has never swung "in favor of abortions". No one wants more abortions. People want less abortions.

They just want it less without restricting a woman's right to make that choice for herself and her fetus. Sex education, birth control, financial support for mothers in difficult situations, etc. These work to reduce abortions...do more.

That's certainly the case for groups like Planned Parenthood. They want every baby born to be a planned and wanted opportunity and most of their actual clinical work is with birth control and prenatal care, not abortions. Their advocacy work, however, is forced to be focused on defending Choice. I find some of that advocacy to be 'extreme' at times but that's in the face of very extreme views attacking Choice.

No unborn baby has ever had the right to choose or deny its own destruction.
R. C. Sproul

Feel better now MD?

Has any slave?
That was my only point, the specious logic of the point being made about public opinion.

[ggait]

Kramer -- Gallup says public opinion in 2020 is the basically the same as in 1975.

20% say it should be illegal. 50% say legal in certain circumstances. 29% (an increase actually) say legal in all instances.

Could change in the future, but probably won't.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

[ggait]

Hot take on today's Obamacare argument:

Obamacare SCOTUS argument is over. I'm fairly confident that there are at least five votes to save the law. But in a sensible court, the only question in this case is whether the plaintiffs' lawyers should be sanctioned for filing frivolous litigation.



Jonathan Turley
@JonathanTurley
Kavanaugh said that this is a very straightforward case in favor of severibility. That is consistent with what many of us said in noting that Kavanaugh and probably Roberts were already likely to vote against striking down the entire act.


Kav, Roberts plus three libs. ACA will survive this completely stupid exercise.

But since the decision won't come out for many months, Dems still retain a nice brickbat to use in the GA senate races. Which is karma.

Need to dig in later to see how ACB was.

[RedFromMI]

Hot take on today's Obamacare argument:

Obamacare SCOTUS argument is over. I'm fairly confident that there are at least five votes to save the law. But in a sensible court, the only question in this case is whether the plaintiffs' lawyers should be sanctioned for filing frivolous litigation.

Need to dig in later to see how ACB was.

Kav seems to imply severability is easy here. Maybe just one more example to be used for any severability argument for the future when all is said and done.

[kramerica.inc]

Possible, but I'd be interested in seeing your source for those numbers. And of course, public opinion can swing wildly, especially when things change in the laws or courts. Just as public opinion has swung in favor of abortions, since reo v wade, the opposite could occur if it is overturned for a similar 40-50 yr stretch.

Sure, and by your logic slavery could become 'popular' again too if implemented for 40-50 years. After all, only the slaves would have an issue with it.

In this case the 600,000K+ aborted children per year don't have a voice. You care about imaginary slaves in your strawman scenario, why not real children in utero that are dismembered and vacuumed out each year?

You are a member of the party who pounds the table for real facts. Why so touchy about these?

Everyone knows why.

Talk about an "Inconvenient Truth."

slaves weren't imaginary. And did they have a voice?

I'm simply piercing the specious logic you presented that public opinion might change if abortions were outlawed for 40-50 years. That was your point.

It's poor logic on its face, as of course the uproar would be overwhelming right away, there's no going back to slavery nor to 100% outlawed abortions. It's possible that will be tested in the coming years, but it's not going to stand.

BTW, public opinion has never swung "in favor of abortions". No one wants more abortions. People want less abortions.

They just want it less without restricting a woman's right to make that choice for herself and her fetus. Sex education, birth control, financial support for mothers in difficult situations, etc. These work to reduce abortions...do more.

That's certainly the case for groups like Planned Parenthood. They want every baby born to be a planned and wanted opportunity and most of their actual clinical work is with birth control and prenatal care, not abortions. Their advocacy work, however, is forced to be focused on defending Choice. I find some of that advocacy to be 'extreme' at times but that's in the face of very extreme views attacking Choice.

The democrats in the state of VA want to eliminate women being given an ultrasound and counseling when they come in for abortion. Why wouild that be? We are told "being informed" is a good thing, for everything. Know the facts, make a decision. But the pro-abortion side argues that being informed "shames women"... into knowing what they are actually doing.



VA democrats want to allow nurses assistants and nurse practitioners (not doctors) to be able to perform abortions. Meanwhile the left tells us how dangerous it would be to have less-qualified non-DRs perform "back alley" abortions.

[cradleandshoot]

Possible, but I'd be interested in seeing your source for those numbers. And of course, public opinion can swing wildly, especially when things change in the laws or courts. Just as public opinion has swung in favor of abortions, since reo v wade, the opposite could occur if it is overturned for a similar 40-50 yr stretch.

Sure, and by your logic slavery could become 'popular' again too if implemented for 40-50 years. After all, only the slaves would have an issue with it.

In this case the 600,000K+ aborted children per year don't have a voice. You care about imaginary slaves in your strawman scenario, why not real children in utero that are dismembered and vacuumed out each year?

You are a member of the party who pounds the table for real facts. Why so touchy about these?

Everyone knows why.

Talk about an "Inconvenient Truth."

slaves weren't imaginary. And did they have a voice?

I'm simply piercing the specious logic you presented that public opinion might change if abortions were outlawed for 40-50 years. That was your point.

It's poor logic on its face, as of course the uproar would be overwhelming right away, there's no going back to slavery nor to 100% outlawed abortions. It's possible that will be tested in the coming years, but it's not going to stand.

BTW, public opinion has never swung "in favor of abortions". No one wants more abortions. People want less abortions.

They just want it less without restricting a woman's right to make that choice for herself and her fetus. Sex education, birth control, financial support for mothers in difficult situations, etc. These work to reduce abortions...do more.

That's certainly the case for groups like Planned Parenthood. They want every baby born to be a planned and wanted opportunity and most of their actual clinical work is with birth control and prenatal care, not abortions. Their advocacy work, however, is forced to be focused on defending Choice. I find some of that advocacy to be 'extreme' at times but that's in the face of very extreme views attacking Choice.

No unborn baby has ever had the right to choose or deny its own destruction.
R. C. Sproul

Feel better now MD?

Has any slave?
That was my only point, the specious logic of the point being made about public opinion.

At least a slave was given the right to be born. An unborn baby is denied that right. Sadly some folks here think that the death of a baby is a wonderful and beautiful thing. It is right up there with the lilac bushes that bloom in the spring. One more example of the hand of god giving us death over life... wait don't i have that backwards?

[holmes435]

The democrats in the state of VA want to eliminate women being given an ultrasound and counseling when they come in for abortion. Why wouild that be? We are told "being informed" is a good thing, for everything. Know the facts, make a decision. But the pro-abortion side argues that being informed "shames women"... into knowing what they are actually doing.



VA democrats want to allow nurses assistants and nurse practitioners (not doctors) to be able to perform abortions. Meanwhile the left tells us how dangerous it would be to have less-qualified non-DRs perform "back alley" abortions.

Want to? They already passed this and it went into effect this summer.

Women are still given the option to get ultrasounds and counseling information prior to an abortion. Now they're not forced to by the state.

Nurses can now perform first trimester abortions, but that's it. What makes you think they're not qualified and trained and certified to do so?

[6ftstick]

The democrats in the state of VA want to eliminate women being given an ultrasound and counseling when they come in for abortion. Why wouild that be? We are told "being informed" is a good thing, for everything. Know the facts, make a decision. But the pro-abortion side argues that being informed "shames women"... into knowing what they are actually doing.



VA democrats want to allow nurses assistants and nurse practitioners (not doctors) to be able to perform abortions. Meanwhile the left tells us how dangerous it would be to have less-qualified non-DRs perform "back alley" abortions.

Want to? They already passed this and it went into effect this summer.

Women are still given the option to get ultrasounds and counseling information prior to an abortion. Now they're not forced to by the state.

Nurses can now perform first trimester abortions, but that's it. What makes you think they're not qualified and trained and certified to do so?

You seem informed—here do the nurses get a commission on the fetal body parts or just doctors

[CU77]

In this case the 600,000K+ aborted children per year don't have a voice.

Fetuses are not children.

They are not counted in the census (as actual children are), and never have been.

When a fetus is miscarried, there is no religious tradition (in any major religion, including Christianity), and never has been, of a funeral service or a burial ceremony or a tombstone.

Abortion is not murder. Fetuses are not children.

Life begins at birth, and always has.

[holmes435]

You seem informed—here do the nurses get a commission on the fetal body parts or just doctors

No commission or sales for either in any state, as more than a dozen investigations have shown.

[6ftstick]

You seem informed—here do the nurses get a commission on the fetal body parts or just doctors

No commission or sales for either in any state, as more than a dozen investigations have shown.

https://www.lifenews.com/2019/09/04/pla ... ed-babies/

https://www.lifenews.com/2020/06/30/pla ... orn-alive/

[dislaxxic]

kramer constantly conjures images of "babies being dismembered and sucked out" in the most gruesome example possible of what the whole of the abortion issue presents. Are there any "libruls" here that support late-term abortion?

What happened to the discussion about "when is what is in that womb viable" as a human being?

For me, once that "human being" starts to form as such, it's probably too late to realistically consider abortion. That's the rub though, isn't it? What is that point at which there should probably be no thought of abortion? Sentience? Consciousness? Viability outside the womb? I would hope "the science" could enlighten us about this sort of thing...

..

You speak to the realities of abortion for the same reason you teach any topic to the letter of the law. Those are the potential realities. What happens on an individual basis may be different, but the possibility is real.

Want to address my last paragraph, Kramer? At what point after insemination is it still OK to abort the pregnancy, in your mind?

..

[holmes435]

You seem informed—here do the nurses get a commission on the fetal body parts or just doctors

No commission or sales for either in any state, as more than a dozen investigations have shown.

https://www.lifenews.com/2019/09/04/pla ... ed-babies/

https://www.lifenews.com/2020/06/30/pla ... orn-alive/

https://oversight.house.gov/planned-par ... -v-fiction

[6ftstick]

You seem informed—here do the nurses get a commission on the fetal body parts or just doctors

No commission or sales for either in any state, as more than a dozen investigations have shown.

https://www.lifenews.com/2019/09/04/pla ... ed-babies/

https://www.lifenews.com/2020/06/30/pla ... orn-alive/

https://oversight.house.gov/planned-par ... -v-fiction

A third testimony came from Jon Dunn, CEO of Planned Parenthood of Orange & San Bernardino Counties in California. His affiliate used to work with the fetal tissue companies DaVinci Biosciences and DV Biologics, which were shut down in 2017 after the Orange County District Attorney accused them of illegally selling aborted baby body parts. The companies agreed to close permanently and pay $8 million in a settlement.

[holmes435]

A third testimony came from Jon Dunn, CEO of Planned Parenthood of Orange & San Bernardino Counties in California. His affiliate used to work with the fetal tissue companies DaVinci Biosciences and DV Biologics, which were shut down in 2017 after the Orange County District Attorney accused them of illegally selling aborted baby body parts. The companies agreed to close permanently and pay $8 million in a settlement.

https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/ ... lling.html

"The suit alleges the companies and their owners obtained aborted fetus donations and marketed and sold hundreds of fetal tissue products from 2009 to 2015 to companies around the world, earning hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue."

So two companies run by three family members were getting donated fetal tissue supposed to be used for research, then turning around and illegally selling it? So it's already illegal, and they got caught. Glad to hear they were punished.

Not seeing any doctors or nurses or PP or abortion clinics selling them here though like we were talking about. Got any evidence of that?

[cradleandshoot]

The democrats in the state of VA want to eliminate women being given an ultrasound and counseling when they come in for abortion. Why wouild that be? We are told "being informed" is a good thing, for everything. Know the facts, make a decision. But the pro-abortion side argues that being informed "shames women"... into knowing what they are actually doing.



VA democrats want to allow nurses assistants and nurse practitioners (not doctors) to be able to perform abortions. Meanwhile the left tells us how dangerous it would be to have less-qualified non-DRs perform "back alley" abortions.

Want to? They already passed this and it went into effect this summer.

Women are still given the option to get ultrasounds and counseling information prior to an abortion. Now they're not forced to by the state.

Nurses can now perform first trimester abortions, but that's it. What makes you think they're not qualified and trained and certified to do so?

So how does the nurse handle a complication that may arise? What if there is excessive bleeding? What if there is an underlying medical condition that makes the patient crash? Your run of the mill school nurse can't hand out an aspirin to a student with a headache. The run of the mill rn can perform a surgical procedure with no doctor supervising? My wife has assisted with probably over 10 thousand colonoscopies. I'm sure she could do one if she had to. She can snare a polyp with the best of them. I'm guessing in the rare instance your colon is perforated I am betting you want your GI doctor there and not the RN?

[kramerica.inc]

In this case the 600,000K+ aborted children per year don't have a voice.

Fetuses are not children.

They are not counted in the census (as actual children are), and never have been.

When a fetus is miscarried, there is no religious tradition (in any major religion, including Christianity), and never has been, of a funeral service or a burial ceremony or a tombstone.

Abortion is not murder. Fetuses are not children.

Life begins at birth, and always has.

False. According to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act:

"Child in Utero"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1841

[6ftstick]

A third testimony came from Jon Dunn, CEO of Planned Parenthood of Orange & San Bernardino Counties in California. His affiliate used to work with the fetal tissue companies DaVinci Biosciences and DV Biologics, which were shut down in 2017 after the Orange County District Attorney accused them of illegally selling aborted baby body parts. The companies agreed to close permanently and pay $8 million in a settlement.

https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/ ... lling.html

"The suit alleges the companies and their owners obtained aborted fetus donations and marketed and sold hundreds of fetal tissue products from 2009 to 2015 to companies around the world, earning hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue."

So two companies run by three family members were getting donated fetal tissue supposed to be used for research, then turning around and illegally selling it? So it's already illegal, and they got caught. Glad to hear they were punished.

Not seeing any doctors or nurses or PP or abortion clinics selling them here though like we were talking about. Got any evidence of that?

In an unprecedented hearing in California this week featuring Planned Parenthood executives and the undercover videos made by the Center for Medical Progress, abortion doctors revealed uncomfortable truths about the industry. In one such testimony, Forrest Smith, an obstetrician-gynecologist who performed abortions in California, testified not only that Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics were selling aborted baby parts for profit, but babies were often born alive, then murdered, in order to ensure the organs to be sold were more fresh and intact.

Smith, who said he had done at least 50,000 abortions, testified that based on what he saw in the videos and what he knows about the abortion industry, he believes doctors performed abortion procedures so that babies would be born alive, even though it puts the mother at greater risk.

Smith testified that he came to this conclusion after reviewing video footage of a presentation Alisa Goldberg gave at a 2014 Planned Parenthood conference and in another Center for Medical Progress video where a procurement manager for Advanced Bioscience Research talks about a “fetus falling out.”

Sometimes you just have to believe them when they tell you.

[kramerica.inc]

The democrats in the state of VA want to eliminate women being given an ultrasound and counseling when they come in for abortion. Why wouild that be? We are told "being informed" is a good thing, for everything. Know the facts, make a decision. But the pro-abortion side argues that being informed "shames women"... into knowing what they are actually doing.



VA democrats want to allow nurses assistants and nurse practitioners (not doctors) to be able to perform abortions. Meanwhile the left tells us how dangerous it would be to have less-qualified non-DRs perform "back alley" abortions.

Want to? They already passed this and it went into effect this summer.

Women are still given the option to get ultrasounds and counseling information prior to an abortion. Now they're not forced to by the state.

Nurses can now perform first trimester abortions, but that's it. What makes you think they're not qualified and trained and certified to do so?

So how does the nurse handle a complication that may arise? What if there is excessive bleeding? What if there is an underlying medical condition that makes the patient crash? Your run of the mill school nurse can't hand out an aspirin to a student with a headache. The run of the mill rn can perform a surgical procedure with no doctor supervising? My wife has assisted with probably over 10 thousand colonoscopies. I'm sure she could do one if she had to. She can snare a polyp with the best of them. I'm guessing in the rare instance your colon is perforated I am betting you want your GI doctor there and not the RN?

Undoubtedly Holmes Etc. if they had a choice, would be happy to have a medical procedure carried out by a nurse rather than a Dr.
Say- removing something like a polyp from his throat or rectum.

[holmes435]

You fellas need to do a little more research on what the procedures involve and who can do them.

The bill allows for Doctors, PAs and Nurse Practitioners to do them, not RNs.

Would You Let A Nurse Practitioner Do That Procedure On You? "I would—depending on the procedure, of course."