Two-way middies; an endangered species?

[watcherinthewoods]

Some discussion in another thread about semantics related to "A mids" and "D mids" ... also discussion about increased prevalence of FOGO on the women's side. I get why both are a trend and used successfully in various configurations by many programs.

The first time I noted this trend was watching KAH platoon players on and off the field circa 2015-ish ... it followed when Apuzzo was moved to attack only and leveraged her athleticism on the draw and ride. The most athletic player on my daughter's college team was moved from middie to attack and worked her way onto the Tewaaraton watch list prior to the 2020 season being cancelled.

Is the true two-way middie a dying position? Who do you think are good examples of this position?

(What inspired me to start this thread is watching Kristin O'Neill get it done all over the field for PSU. If her game has a weak point, it was not on display against Princeton ... she was equally as effective in the attack, on D and between the 30s in the ride and/or transition. I think she is absolutely top 5 middies in the country, if not the #1)

[@inthe8m]

I really do not think the two way middie is going anywhere. It is just that some teams like to run an offense with 5 attack players and a defense with 5 defenders.

And, I believe most teams prefer to have the draw being taken by a player that will be staying on the field and only use draw specialists (fogo) if that is the best and only option available to them on the team.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Some discussion in another thread about semantics related to "A mids" and "D mids" ... also discussion about increased prevalence of FOGO on the women's side. I get why both are a trend and used successfully in various configurations by many programs.

The first time I noted this trend was watching KAH platoon players on and off the field circa 2015-ish ... it followed when Apuzzo was moved to attack only and leveraged her athleticism on the draw and ride. The most athletic player on my daughter's college team was moved from middie to attack and worked her way onto the Tewaaraton watch list prior to the 2020 season being cancelled.

Is the true two-way middie a dying position? Who do you think are good examples of this position?

(What inspired me to start this thread is watching Kristin O'Neill get it done all over the field for PSU. If her game has a weak point, it was not on display against Princeton ... she was equally as effective in the attack, on D and between the 30s in the ride and/or transition. I think she is absolutely top 5 middies in the country, if not the #1)

Yes, I watched the PSU-Princeton game and, although I was critical at first of PSU, Penn State eventually turned the game around and won, with a terrific game and effort by O'Neil and Gilmore.

I think Cockerville at Syracuse plays both ways quite a bit, as does Markey. UNC has midfielders who could or have in the past (Hillman and Dirks), but it appears that, like a lot of teams, UNC floods the offensive zone with attackers, several of whom have an "M" to denote their position. It is a trend that makes me, candidly, a little sad. But it puts more players on the field during a game, and theoretically keeps women fresh for the later stages of the games.

[Womenslaxxfan]

I don’t think it’s a dying position in the sense that coaches don’t want two way midfielders. However, given the increased talent pool in women’s lacrosse over the past 10-15 years, I think it’s become a much tougher position to fill because it requires a rare set of skills: incredible motor, great stick skills, a scorers mentality and the willingness to commit to play defense.
Most players fall into natural attackers or natural defenders…and themselves have become better and better athletes. Most division 1 women’s lax players were midfielders in high school. But when they get to college, they are more likely to succeed and find the field playing to their strengths…and it’s a rare talent to be elite at both ends of the field….and to also have the endurance to make that work….

Athletes like Marie McCool, Taylor Cummings, and ally Mastroianni are rare….and getting relatively rarer!

[@inthe8m]

... UNC floods the offensive zone with attackers, several of whom have an "M" to denote their position.

Which players?

[watcherinthewoods]

Some discussion in another thread about semantics related to "A mids" and "D mids" ... also discussion about increased prevalence of FOGO on the women's side. I get why both are a trend and used successfully in various configurations by many programs.

The first time I noted this trend was watching KAH platoon players on and off the field circa 2015-ish ... it followed when Apuzzo was moved to attack only and leveraged her athleticism on the draw and ride. The most athletic player on my daughter's college team was moved from middie to attack and worked her way onto the Tewaaraton watch list prior to the 2020 season being cancelled.

Is the true two-way middie a dying position? Who do you think are good examples of this position?

(What inspired me to start this thread is watching Kristin O'Neill get it done all over the field for PSU. If her game has a weak point, it was not on display against Princeton ... she was equally as effective in the attack, on D and between the 30s in the ride and/or transition. I think she is absolutely top 5 middies in the country, if not the #1)

Yes, I watched the PSU-Princeton game and, although I was critical at first of PSU, Penn State eventually turned the game around and won, with a terrific game and effort by O'Neil and Gilmore.

I think Cockerville at Syracuse plays both ways quite a bit, as does Markey. UNC has midfielders who could or have in the past (Hillman and Dirks), but it appears that, like a lot of teams, UNC floods the offensive zone with attackers, several of whom have an "M" to denote their position. It is a trend that makes me, candidly, a little sad. But it puts more players on the field during a game, and theoretically keeps women fresh for the later stages of the games.

I should have added to my post that two-way middies in the defensive end have been a weakness (IMHO) for BC and UNC this season.

[njbill]

I think it is largely a talent issue. As a general rule, you want your best seven attackers and best seven defenders to play on offense and defense. Of course, you have to rest players at times. As long as a two-way middie is among the best seven on both sides of the ball, she will play both ends of the field.

There used to be two way players in football, but that has long since ceased to be.

In high school years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw offensive middies being subbed in and out with defensive middies. Now I would say perhaps a third of HS teams do that. And a small handful will sub two middies. If nothing else, they sure get their wind sprints in.

The subbing in and subbing out also affects clears and redefending. If you are in the process of taking too many players off the field, I think it can hurt those aspects of the game. On the other hand, players on the opposing team often don’t mark someone who is running off and then the player who is subbing in so that player can be wide-open to help with the clear.

[jff97]

Alyssa Murray Commetti made some points in Top 20 column a few weeks ago about possibly shortening the game that I think could also apply to seeing less 2-way middies. With a 90-second shot clock, players are having to run up-and-down the field more than before and deeper into games. There's no more stall ball, which I'm sure while being an annoying strategy to win also gave 2-way midfielders a break. And if the athletes keep getting better, it makes the position even more demanding.
As far as the team I watch, MD seems to have three players who play both ways in Ahearn, Smith and Edmondson, though they don't take every shift. The Terps are playing five and sometimes six defenders, and rotating players in for the last two spots depending on the situation, with something similar happening on offense. Coaches want to put their best 7 on both ends, and if that 7 is only kids who play one side of the field, then that's what they're going to do. There's still a long way to go before you get to the true specialization of the men's game.

[Bart]

Some discussion in another thread about semantics related to "A mids" and "D mids" ... also discussion about increased prevalence of FOGO on the women's side. I get why both are a trend and used successfully in various configurations by many programs.

The first time I noted this trend was watching KAH platoon players on and off the field circa 2015-ish ... it followed when Apuzzo was moved to attack only and leveraged her athleticism on the draw and ride. The most athletic player on my daughter's college team was moved from middie to attack and worked her way onto the Tewaaraton watch list prior to the 2020 season being cancelled.

Is the true two-way middie a dying position? Who do you think are good examples of this position?

(What inspired me to start this thread is watching Kristin O'Neill get it done all over the field for PSU. If her game has a weak point, it was not on display against Princeton ... she was equally as effective in the attack, on D and between the 30s in the ride and/or transition. I think she is absolutely top 5 middies in the country, if not the #1)

Yes

[Seacoaster(1)]

... UNC floods the offensive zone with attackers, several of whom have an "M" to denote their position.

Which players?

I may be wrong about this, of course. But I was thinking of Growney, who I thought was a midfielder when she started out. I also thought freshmen Nos. 17 and 21 are middies, but could be wrong there too!

[wlaxphan20]

... UNC floods the offensive zone with attackers, several of whom have an "M" to denote their position.

Which players?

I may be wrong about this, of course. But I was thinking of Growney, who I thought was a midfielder when she started out. I also thought freshmen Nos. 17 and 21 are middies, but could be wrong there too!

She did start out as a middie and played both ways as a freshman but moved to just attack as a sophomore or junior, I think it was mentioned in an article or interview, or maybe in the bio page.

And I agree with your earlier post, it makes me a little sad too, but at the same time, I like that more players are getting on the field.

I think coaches still want 2-way middies on their roster, but whether they will actually have them play both ways is a different story. I like how women’s lax has come to really utilize the substitution box over the last decade.

[Laxallday]

The two way middie is an endangered species. First you have to find players willing to put max effort on both sides. Assuming you do that, you have to have incredibly well conditioned athletes to do it effectively. Finally, you need to play a little differently on the offensive end to provide rest for the two way middies on the offensive end. And if your Uber athletic two way middies are decent on Gbs, many of the teams will actually use them on the draw as well, making them three way middies. The problem with this approach is not whether these athletes can do it for a game or two, but what is the cumulative effect on the health of the player and how worn down are they when the games really count.

What it comes down to is this…if you team has depth you won’t do it. If not, you ride your horse as far as they will take you.

[user1020]

I love a full two-way middle. They make such a difference for a team and provide consistency. Maryland’s dominance in the 2010s was largely due to them having strong 2 way middies every year. My favorite 2 way middie right now has to be Jillian Wilson of Loyola.

[HailMaryPass]

I love a full two-way middle. They make such a difference for a team and provide consistency. Maryland’s dominance in the 2010s was largely due to them having strong 2 way middies every year. My favorite 2 way middie right now has to Jillian Wilson of Loyola.

Jillian Wilson doesn't get enough recognition for her dominance all over the field! My fav middie!

[8meterPA]

I love a full two-way middle. They make such a difference for a team and provide consistency. Maryland’s dominance in the 2010s was largely due to them having strong 2 way middies every year. My favorite 2 way middie right now has to Jillian Wilson of Loyola.

Jillian Wilson doesn't get enough recognition for her dominance all over the field! My fav middie!

Doc, is this your burner account?

[Dr. Tact]

I love a full two-way middle. They make such a difference for a team and provide consistency. Maryland’s dominance in the 2010s was largely due to them having strong 2 way middies every year. My favorite 2 way middie right now has to Jillian Wilson of Loyola.

Jillian Wilson doesn't get enough recognition for her dominance all over the field! My fav middie!

Doc, is this your burner account?

Nope...I really like J , but I already have a favorite Middie.

She is a very talented athlete. Definitely the core of the hounds (with Det).

[user1020]

I love a full two-way middle. They make such a difference for a team and provide consistency. Maryland’s dominance in the 2010s was largely due to them having strong 2 way middies every year. My favorite 2 way middie right now has to Jillian Wilson of Loyola.

Jillian Wilson doesn't get enough recognition for her dominance all over the field! My fav middie!

Doc, is this your burner account?

Nope...I really like J , but I already have a favorite Middie.

She is a very talented athlete. Definitely the core of the hounds (with Det).

Can’t blame you for your favorite. I have been really impressed with Wilson on the draw though. Not sure why I’m so impressed considering she had 133 last year, but she has 107 already this year. She also has been on fire on offense her last 5 or so games.

[Lax101]

She is a very good player but strength of schedule might contribute to her performance and numbers - she is an ACC caliber player playing in the Patriot League. The last 5 games Loyola outscored Colgate, BU, HC, American and Lehigh 93-25. I watched an ACC team play one of those teams and their middies barely played when it was running clock after 15 minutes.

[Dr. Tact]

She is a very good player but strength of schedule might contribute to her performance and numbers - she is an ACC caliber player playing in the Patriot League. The last 5 games Loyola outscored Colgate, BU, HC, American and Lehigh 93-25. I watched an ACC team play one of those teams and their middies barely played when it was running clock after 15 minutes.

Loyola is an ACC/B1G caliber team playing in the Patriot League. Can't change that

Jillian has very good numbers against teams outside of the PL.

[watcherinthewoods]

She is a very good player but strength of schedule might contribute to her performance and numbers - she is an ACC caliber player playing in the Patriot League. The last 5 games Loyola outscored Colgate, BU, HC, American and Lehigh 93-25. I watched an ACC team play one of those teams and their middies barely played when it was running clock after 15 minutes.

Loyola is an ACC/B1G caliber team playing in the Patriot League. Can't change that

Jillian has very good numbers against teams outside of the PL.

She is an amazing athlete. All over the field last night. Top 5 middies in D1 100%.