Israel and Zionism

[old salt]

Any well meaning campus protesters lose all credibility when they join antisemitic protesters, symbols, or content or allow them in their midst.

... yeah Like the "pro-Palestine" protestors are in total control of all the people who might join the protest under a false flag. Of course there are no provocateurs hanging around the protestors. And of course there are no counter protestors.

Just by being together, the "well meaning" protesters provide cover & are still participating in illegal activity when they obstruct & disrupt.

... If person X breaks a window, person Y is not held responsible. It is not like murder.

...they were on Jan 6th.

nice try

These protesters are clowns. They give new meaning to the term useful idiots.

... the clowns are people like you that have no idea what is really going on. These kids (some of them that I have seen) are a lot smarter and are better organized than you would give them credit. They have learned their history and are applying it. If only the administrators were doing as good of a job. Some are, some aren't. The places that are mostly in the national news, the ones where things have gotten out of hand, THE ADMINISTRATIONS and or local politicians are the reason things have gotten out of hand. There are between 75 and closer to 100 college / university protests. You hear about a half dozen on the national news. The others aren't making any national news. You have to look at local news and school media to find out what is going on.

The great American con. I would disagree with this opinion piece only in that he believes one of the groups being coned are the professors. Some are, most aren't.

You are just one more old "get of my grass" clown that hates college kids. We get it.

We are all Hamas, Pig ! Death to America !

[cradleandshoot]

Any well meaning campus protesters lose all credibility when they join antisemitic protesters, symbols, or content or allow them in their midst.

... yeah Like the "pro-Palestine" protestors are in total control of all the people who might join the protest under a false flag. Of course there are no provocateurs hanging around the protestors. And of course there are no counter protestors.

Just by being together, the "well meaning" protesters provide cover & are still participating in illegal activity when they obstruct & disrupt.

... If person X breaks a window, person Y is not held responsible. It is not like murder.

...they were on Jan 6th.

nice try

These protesters are clowns. They give new meaning to the term useful idiots.

... the clowns are people like you that have no idea what is really going on. These kids (some of them that I have seen) are a lot smarter and are better organized than you would give them credit. They have learned their history and are applying it. If only the administrators were doing as good of a job. Some are, some aren't. The places that are mostly in the national news, the ones where things have gotten out of hand, THE ADMINISTRATIONS and or local politicians are the reason things have gotten out of hand. There are between 75 and closer to 100 college / university protests. You hear about a half dozen on the national news. The others aren't making any national news. You have to look at local news and school media to find out what is going on.

The great American con. I would disagree with this opinion piece only in that he believes one of the groups being coned are the professors. Some are, most aren't.

You are just one more old "get of my grass" clown that hates college kids. We get it.

We are all Hamas, Pig ! Death to America !

DEATH TO ISRAEL
DEATH TO AMERICA
DEATH TO THE INFIDELS

[cradleandshoot]

I have an idea. Since so many young college students are deeply concerned about Gaza this is the perfect time to really step their game up. How about organizing a group of the best and brightest. They could travel to Gaza as ambassadors of good will and understanding. They could meet with Hamas and discuss the present situation and reinforce their support for Hamas. If the Hamas folks seem amiable enough they could expand the conversation to gay rights and LGBTQ rights. That is the point where the young ambassadors will get a free flying lesson.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas ... 499fdbae02

Nine people are worth less than Hamas capabilities. It’s all outrageous

... they were Hamas fighters.

Thanks. The early report indicated it was a mistake. Hopefully it was 9 Hamas fighters instead of innocent people just going about their day.

... it's not clear you saw my tongue in check.

I realized it afterwards….

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleea ... index.html

[PizzaSnake]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleea ... index.html

So, as I was saying about more sources of information…

Which other press organizations will be silenced next?

[youthathletics]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleea ... index.html

So, as I was saying about more sources of information…

Which other press organizations will be silenced next?

You should understand why rather perfectly ....its the very reason you have multiple accounts.

[cradleandshoot]

So the brave and fearless Hamas leader Sinwar is hold up deep in the rats nests of Gaza tunnels surrounded by human shield hostages. That is the kind of chicken chit behavior you would expect from a f***ing coward. Hiding behind innocent civilians. Sadly these moronic college students in the USA are giving aide and comfort to the people leading the Palestinian people into the abyss. This was the leadership the people of Palestine elected and many still vigorously support. I believe a Fan mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread that Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to October 7.


Israel responded exactly as Hamas knew they would. They have taken an enormous gamble up until recently I didn't understand. The objective I believe is using the extensive bombing of Gaza with the resulting death of civilians would result in exactly what is happening all over America and Europe. It's okay if not patriotic to hate the Jews again. Wouldn't Hitler be so proud if he knew how his vision for the annihilation of all Jews is still going strong. One fact for sure about Hamas, they know how to manipulate a certain segment of very stupid and gullible college students.

[OCanada]

So the brave and fearless Hamas leader Sinwar is hold up deep in the rats nests of Gaza tunnels surrounded by human shield hostages. That is the kind of chicken chit behavior you would expect from a f***ing coward. Hiding behind innocent civilians. Sadly these moronic college students in the USA are giving aide and comfort to the people leading the Palestinian people into the abyss. This was the leadership the people of Palestine elected and many still vigorously support. I believe a Fan mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread that Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to October 7.


Israel responded exactly as Hamas knew they would. They have taken an enormous gamble up until recently I didn't understand. The objective I believe is using the extensive bombing of Gaza with the resulting death of civilians would result in exactly what is happening all over America and Europe. It's okay if not patriotic to hate the Jews again. Wouldn't Hitler be so proud if he knew how his vision for the annihilation of all Jews is still going strong. One fact for sure about Hamas, they know how to manipulate a certain segment of very stupid and gullible college students.

Israel did not have to respond as it did. But they did ncs Bengie. It is not hating Jews to hold Israel for its ignorant response. You keep trying and failing to somehow make Israel equal to the Jewish people. BTW the current israeli government has lost most of uts support. The repercussions will echo throughout the middle east amd the world for generations. Speaking if stupid and gullible your post fits nicely. The GOP aka home of tge majority of anti-semites in the US. In asymetric war killing innocent civilians is normative. Hostages have been used throughout history. Israel killed innocent civilians more than once including the recent past.

[cradleandshoot]

So the brave and fearless Hamas leader Sinwar is hold up deep in the rats nests of Gaza tunnels surrounded by human shield hostages. That is the kind of chicken chit behavior you would expect from a f***ing coward. Hiding behind innocent civilians. Sadly these moronic college students in the USA are giving aide and comfort to the people leading the Palestinian people into the abyss. This was the leadership the people of Palestine elected and many still vigorously support. I believe a Fan mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread that Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to October 7.


Israel responded exactly as Hamas knew they would. They have taken an enormous gamble up until recently I didn't understand. The objective I believe is using the extensive bombing of Gaza with the resulting death of civilians would result in exactly what is happening all over America and Europe. It's okay if not patriotic to hate the Jews again. Wouldn't Hitler be so proud if he knew how his vision for the annihilation of all Jews is still going strong. One fact for sure about Hamas, they know how to manipulate a certain segment of very stupid and gullible college students.

Israel did not have to respond as it did. But they did ncs Bengie. It is not hating Jews to hold Israel for its ignorant response. You keep trying and failing to somehow make Israel equal to the Jewish people. BTW the current israeli government has lost most of uts support. The repercussions will echo throughout the middle east amd the world for generations. Speaking if stupid and gullible your post fits nicely. The GOP aka home of tge majority of anti-semites in the US. In asymetric war killing innocent civilians is normative. Hostages have been used throughout history. Israel killed innocent civilians more than once including the recent past.

War is hell. Britain didn't have to firebomb Dresden either. How many German citizens died in Churchills vengeance. Look up what William Tecumseh Sherman said about war. Do you think he was jerking your chain? War is hell and innocent people will die. That has been the reality for thousands of years. So what makes you think the war in Gaza would be any different? If it assuages your guilt alot more Palestinians will die in the war their duly elected leaders led them into. This war would end tomorrow if Hamas had any sense of morality and threw down their weapons and released the hostages, those that are still alive.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleea ... index.html

[PizzaSnake]

So the brave and fearless Hamas leader Sinwar is hold up deep in the rats nests of Gaza tunnels surrounded by human shield hostages. That is the kind of chicken chit behavior you would expect from a f***ing coward. Hiding behind innocent civilians. Sadly these moronic college students in the USA are giving aide and comfort to the people leading the Palestinian people into the abyss. This was the leadership the people of Palestine elected and many still vigorously support. I believe a Fan mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread that Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond to October 7.


Israel responded exactly as Hamas knew they would. They have taken an enormous gamble up until recently I didn't understand. The objective I believe is using the extensive bombing of Gaza with the resulting death of civilians would result in exactly what is happening all over America and Europe. It's okay if not patriotic to hate the Jews again. Wouldn't Hitler be so proud if he knew how his vision for the annihilation of all Jews is still going strong. One fact for sure about Hamas, they know how to manipulate a certain segment of very stupid and gullible college students.

Israel did not have to respond as it did. But they did ncs Bengie. It is not hating Jews to hold Israel for its ignorant response. You keep trying and failing to somehow make Israel equal to the Jewish people. BTW the current israeli government has lost most of uts support. The repercussions will echo throughout the middle east amd the world for generations. Speaking if stupid and gullible your post fits nicely. The GOP aka home of tge majority of anti-semites in the US. In asymetric war killing innocent civilians is normative. Hostages have been used throughout history. Israel killed innocent civilians more than once including the recent past.

Shortly after 10/7 I predicted an Israeli overreaction although I hoped for a wiser, nuanced approach. At the time I thought it was a "check" move by Hamas, but as the own-goals by Israel pile up, I'm leaning towards a "checkmate."

[PizzaSnake]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleea ... index.html

So, as I was saying about more sources of information…

Which other press organizations will be silenced next?

You should understand why rather perfectly ....its the very reason you have multiple accounts.

I am legion.

[cradleandshoot]

So what is the end game of a cease fire? The objective is to allow food and medicine to flow unfettered into Gaza. The fighting is not over, far from it. Who will be in charge of the distribution of this food and medicine? Does Hamas benefit from a cease fire to catch their breath, reorganize and create a more lethal defense in Gaza. That is what Hamas wants, they are getting the living chit kicked out of them on the field of battle. The delusion that a ceasefire is strictly to provide humanitarian aide is what Hamas wants. A cease-fire sounds like the right idea at face value. When the ceasefire is the brain child of Hamas people should be sceptical of what the end game is. It ain't about helping the Palestinians it's about what is best for Hamas. Too bad the well coordinated and choreographed demonstrations on college campuses are not understood for what they are. There is no shortage of " USEFUL IDIOTS" on college campuses all over America. Mommy and Daddy should be sooooo very proud of their young skulls full of mush.

[old salt]

The new mythology. I fear for the future of Jews in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... -kaffiyeh/

The power of putting George Washington in a kaffiyeh

Student protests connect the plight of Gaza to fundamental American values.

Perspective by Philip Kennicott
Senior art and architecture critic
May 3, 2024 at 4:55 p.m. EDT

A Palestinian flag hangs from a statue of George Washington, whose head is draped in a kaffiyeh scarf, inside the pro-Palestinian encampment at George Washington University.

The statue of George Washington that stands in University Yard at George Washington University is one of many copies of an original marble likeness made by Jean-Antoine Houdon, the leading sculptor in France at the end of the 18th century. It shows the Founding Father in a classical and aristocratic pose, one leg slightly bent, his posture erect. His cape is draped next to him, he holds a cane lightly in his right hand, and he is staring into the distance, a reference no doubt to both his perspicacity and the prospects of the new nation.

Houdon based the face of Washington on a life mask he made during a visit to Mount Vernon in 1785, but Washington’s face is now obscured by a kaffiyeh scarf, and his military uniform is partially covered by the Palestinian flag. The protest encampment that surrounds him is orderly and quiet, with a medical tent, a library and a media section. Some graffiti has been painted on the statue’s base — “genocidal warmongering” is one of the messages — and stickers affixed to the metal cast.

But what is most striking is the symbolic incorporation of the statue into the wider messaging of the protest. This isn’t iconoclasm, and the statue hasn’t been torn down or dumped in the Potomac. Rather, it is the repurposing of a familiar American symbol. The students have dressed up Washington like the school mascot, adding new political symbols to existing ones.

Washington, an enslaver and plantation owner, is no doubt a controversial figure among many of the people who are protesting American support for Israel as it pursues a brutal war against Hamas, which launched a deadly attack against Israel on Oct. 7. But for now, Washington has been symbolically appropriated as a defender of the Palestinian people.

Anyone inclined to dismiss these protests as the irrational exuberance of privileged students with an incoherent ideology should stand back and consider the iconography. When national symbols are incorporated into a group’s identity rather than rejected, something significant is happening. The students may be making inconvenient or even irrational requests of the institution and the country at large, but they are framing those demands as part of a continuum of American values.

It’s worth remembering that the students who have taken to the pro-Palestinian encampments have lived almost their entire, politically conscious life with Benjamin Netanyahu as the prime minister of Israel. Films like Otto Preminger’s 1960 “Exodus,” which dramatized and mythologized the founding of Israel, belong to their grandparents’ generation. Yigal Amir, the right-wing Israeli extremist who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, is old enough to be their father. Do they even remember Rabin, who signed the Oslo accords in 1993?

Like the Occupy Wall Street protests of 2011, the pro-Gaza encampments are both a site of protest and a place of invention. The students are creating communities ex nihilo, and in the process, learning how to anticipate and respond to basic needs, like food, water, sanitation, fire safety, social coexistence and mental health. As they invent their own communities, they are also reinventing the symbolism of American politics. It would be foolish to imagine that these protests will simply evaporate when the school year ends. The “rethink everything” mentality, an essential part of a liberal education, will likely mean a realignment of the symbolism and narratives that have governed American thinking about Israel for generations.

Israel isn’t losing the symbolic war on American campuses, it has already lost it. Amid that clamor, there are antisemitic voices that should be hounded past the margins and into the gutters. But with the death toll in Gaza now near 35,000, with Israel unable or unwilling to protect aid workers and humanitarian organizations, with famine spreading, with an imminent threat to the civilians in Rafah, there is an urgency that requires rethinking all of the old assumptions about the alliance between the United States and Israel.

A sticker affixed to the base of a statue of George Washington, at George Washington University in Washington, reads simply: “Look up 'Nakba.'”

The statue of Washington is already doing that work. Next to the flag-draped image of Washington is the library tent, dubbed the Refaat Alareer Memorial Library, named for the Palestinian poet and writer who was killed in an Israeli airstrike in December. Alareer’s last poem, “If I must die,” has become the elegy, the rhetorical kaffiyeh, of the pro-Palestinian movement. Translated into dozens of languages, and reproduced in the encampments and online, it is a powerful statement of both helplessness and hope: “If I must die/let it bring hope/let it be a tale.”

That last line is important, let it be a tale. Americans have processed the history of Israel through narratives, symbols and myths. The old stories and tales — about the heroic defense of a nascent Israel against overwhelming odds and military power, the communal and collective aspirations of the kibbutzim, the daring and bravado of Israeli commandos defending Israeli civilians around the world — belong to a generation that is passing from political relevance. The new tales will be about a military colossus with American weapons attacking the World Central Kitchen aid workers, firing at the first car, then the second and then the third, until seven people were dead.

Is that fair? Is it nuanced? Is it the truth? Affixed to the statue of Washington is a sticker that reads, simply, “Look Up ‘Nakba.’” The word, Arabic for “catastrophe” and a reference to the 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the war for Israel’s independence, may be new to many passersby, and not just students. It isn’t regularly used in mainstream journalistic discourse in this country. Go to the Wikipedia page for Nakba and you find a history of Israel’s early fight for survival — or conquest, depending on your point of view — which includes cruel, ugly chapters and atrocities on both sides.

In the early history of the United States, the David and Goliath story was invoked to legitimize and mythologize the United States’ war against the colonial power of Britain. The same myth has been fundamental to discourse about Israel and its hostile neighbors. Now the myth is being repurposed once again, to legitimize Palestinian aspirations for a viable homeland and state. It’s a volatile myth and was seized on by the Confederacy when slave states rebelled against federal power. It’s not the sort of myth that clarifies history, but it does help cement ideology.

It may seem absurd that Washington wears the kaffiyeh, a new David defending the Palestinians against militarism and aggression funded by the United States. But if you look up Nakba, the gulf between the reality of what is happening in the Middle East and the stories that are commonly told about that reality in the United States will seem absurd as well. A new set of stories, new tales, are emerging, and they are already being incorporated into the mainstream of American politics. It won’t take a generation for that to have an impact. The reckoning is already underway.

[a fan]

The new mythology. I fear for the future of Jews in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... -kaffiyeh/

You and your fellow writers would do yourselves a favor if you did just five minutes of research.

These folks have been around for more than 20 years. And they pop up when the region heats up. And stop getting headlines when the conflict fades.

Know what made them disappear from view for many years? 9/11.

Context helps. Acting like these protesters and phrases like "from the river to the sea" didn't show up until this past October show an unwillingness to honestly understand this group.

Pieces like these HELP the professional protesters, OS. I wish these authors would wake up and understand that, and stop giving them the fuel they want.

[cradleandshoot]

The new mythology. I fear for the future of Jews in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... -kaffiyeh/

You and your fellow writers would do yourselves a favor if you did just five minutes of research.

These folks have been around for more than 20 years. And they pop up when the region heats up. And stop getting headlines when the conflict fades.

Know what made them disappear from view for many years? 9/11.

Context helps. Acting like these protesters and phrases like "from the river to the sea" didn't show up until this past October show an unwillingness to honestly understand this group.

Pieces like these HELP the professional protesters, OS. I wish these authors would wake up and understand that, and stop giving them the fuel they want.

So the phrase " from the river to the sea" isn't something that the Average American should be concerned about? No big deal, nothin to lose any sleep over. It doesn't actually mean what the phrase implies. Anybody on this forum have any doubts about what Iran wants the fate of Israel to be? Anybody on this forum wish to stand up and defend Irans vision for Israel? Don't be shy, don't be bashful.

[youthathletics]

The new mythology. I fear for the future of Jews in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... -kaffiyeh/

You and your fellow writers would do yourselves a favor if you did just five minutes of research.

These folks have been around for more than 20 years. And they pop up when the region heats up. And stop getting headlines when the conflict fades.

Know what made them disappear from view for many years? 9/11.

Context helps. Acting like these protesters and phrases like "from the river to the sea" didn't show up until this past October show an unwillingness to honestly understand this group.

Pieces like these HELP the professional protesters, OS. I wish these authors would wake up and understand that, and stop giving them the fuel they want.

So the phrase " from the river to the sea" isn't something that the Average American should be concerned about? No big deal, nothin to lose any sleep over. It doesn't actually mean what the phrase implies. Anybody on this forum have any doubts about what Iran wants the fate of Israel to be? Anybody on this forum wish to stand up and defend Irans vision for Israel? Don't be shy, don't be bashful.

Its the very reason I started the new thread yesterday. viewtopic.php?t=5005

Afan is right BUT misses the forest, IMO. These issues also pop up for intentional reason, to continue the very end game while putting on full display the progress.

[a fan]

The new mythology. I fear for the future of Jews in America.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... -kaffiyeh/

You and your fellow writers would do yourselves a favor if you did just five minutes of research.

These folks have been around for more than 20 years. And they pop up when the region heats up. And stop getting headlines when the conflict fades.

Know what made them disappear from view for many years? 9/11.

Context helps. Acting like these protesters and phrases like "from the river to the sea" didn't show up until this past October show an unwillingness to honestly understand this group.

Pieces like these HELP the professional protesters, OS. I wish these authors would wake up and understand that, and stop giving them the fuel they want.

So the phrase " from the river to the sea" isn't something that the Average American should be concerned about? No big deal, nothin to lose any sleep over. It doesn't actually mean what the phrase implies. Anybody on this forum have any doubts about what Iran wants the fate of Israel to be? Anybody on this forum wish to stand up and defend Irans vision for Israel? Don't be shy, don't be bashful.

Cradle.....have you honestly not read any of my posts on the subject?

What I'm telling you is that the media coverage surrounding this sucks. They're acting like this is new. It's not new. It's been around for DECADES. And if you understand that, you understand that what you are seeing is these wankers having their chance in the limelight.

What I"m telling you is: these articles are doing the work of a handful of ***holes for them. This is HELPING them, and making just a handful of people APPEAR to represent the entire student body at Columbia, UCLA, et. al.

You want to stand up to these ***holes? So do I. The National Review, for example, should do it by doing their jobs as a journalists, and reporting NUMBERS, and taking time to point out how many of the folks their just want peace, and that they are in no way a unified voice.

Have you noticed how none of these guys will talk to journalists, or have open dialogue? Do you not understand WHY? It's because if you dig around, you'll find out how many aren't students. And how many of those students simply want the violence to stop. The Pro's in these camps are playing you, the media, and the students who let them control the message.

They're not interested in fixing things. All they want to do is make the biggest possible splash, grab as many headlines as they can, and make it seem like all of Columbia, for example, are pro-Palestinian, and we should therefore give them what they want.

We need to stop HELPING these wankers accomplish their goals. THAT is what I'm trying to tell you.

[ggait]

Tom Friedman called it just a couple days after the October attacks.

Hamas is getting exactly what they wanted from Israel. Netanyahu fell for this hook line sinker by doing the outrageous things that Hamas wanted to provoke from Israel.

Destroying 60% of the Gaza houses, bombing 80% of the Gaza schools, and killing tens of thousands of innocent women and children. Can't think of a better way for the victim to cede the moral high ground and vaporize substantial international support from your allies. Regardless of the horrific-ness of the provocation, that response is just never going to be seen as justified.

Gigantic long term strategic blunder by Israel.

I believe one reason Hamas not only launched this assault now — but also seemingly ordered it to be as murderous as possible — was to trigger an Israeli overreaction, like an invasion of the Gaza Strip, that would lead to massive Palestinian civilian casualties and in that way force Saudi Arabia to back away from the U.S.-brokered deal now in discussion to promote normalization between Riyadh and the Jewish state. As well as to force the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Morocco, which were part of the Abraham Accords produced by the Trump administration, to take a step back from Israel.