The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending

[LarryGamLax]

Were any of you as taken aback by the poor goaltending in the Tournament(hell, during the season) as I was?
Fundamentals...absent , Proper Techniques...absent , Proper Mechanics...absent

All of the things that make a goalie good were missing. Here's what replaced those things...highly overrated athleticism, Goalies looking like they were playing the "Flat Arc"(which is not an arc at all), a lot of Goalies helping with the clear(?) by coming past the restraining line or sometimes midfield...WHY?? , Goalies not focusing on the ball , Goalies doing the splits , Goalies jumping in the Air to try and block the ball with their bodies as opposed to making the plays with their sticks. I watched a goalie get scored on 6 times in the same place and she tried to make the save 6 times with a body part, and not once with her stick.

No stepping to the ball on a 45 degree angle, no rotate and turn to face ball at X....Just a lot of non-sensical stuff that has severely diminished the level of play at what is simply the single most important position on the field. We can rave about the offensive prowess of Charlotte North and others, but a few of these teams could have used a MEGHAN TAYLOR(Maryland '19).

[Cletus]

Were any of you as taken aback by the poor goaltending in the Tournament(hell, during the season) as I was?
Fundamentals...absent , Proper Techniques...absent , Proper Mechanics...absent

All of the things that make a goalie good were missing. Here's what replaced those things...highly overrated athleticism, Goalies looking like they were playing the "Flat Arc"(which is not an arc at all), a lot of Goalies helping with the clear(?) by coming past the restraining line or sometimes midfield...WHY?? , Goalies not focusing on the ball , Goalies doing the splits , Goalies jumping in the Air to try and block the ball with their bodies as opposed to making the plays with their sticks. I watched a goalie get scored on 6 times in the same place and she tried to make the save 6 times with a body part, and not once with her stick.

No stepping to the ball on a 45 degree angle, no rotate and turn to face ball at X....Just a lot of non-sensical stuff that has severely diminished the level of play at what is simply the single most important position on the field. We can rave about the offensive prowess of Charlotte North and others, but a few of these teams could have used a MEGHAN TAYLOR(Maryland '19).

But don't you know, Larry? This was dubbed by many in the MAS women's lacrosse media world as The Year of the Goaltender.

[LarryGamLax]

I am waiting for all of you strong Lacrosse people to explain how THIS position has sunken to "Mediocrity passing for greatness"?
If this was the Year of the Goalie, then it was a bad year.

[Cletus]

I don't see the benefit of grading a goaltender on form and technique. If they make the stop, they make the stop--that's always been my philosophy. I recall Tim Thomas, goaltender for the NHL Boston Bruins in the 2011 Cup run. Thomas was criticized for having an unorthodox style. He flopped around a lot and was often caught out of position. But he won the Conn Smythe that year as the most valuable player in the playoffs, and backstopped the Bruins to their 6th Stanley Cup championship.

[njbill]

The point is that if you have a good form and good technique, you are more likely to make more saves. Are there outliers, that is, some who might perform well with bad technique? Possibly, but as in all sports, good technique is more likely to lead to good results than is bad technique.

[fergie25]

Sorry, but were any of the people on this thread actual women's college goaltenders? 'Technique' means next to nothing at that level. Every goalie is different. I was a 2x IWCLA all American goalie in college, there is no 'proper way' to make saves.

[LarryGamLax]

Sorry, but were any of the people on this thread actual women's college goaltenders? 'Technique' means next to nothing at that level. Every goalie is different. I was a 2x IWCLA all American goalie in college, there is no 'proper way' to make saves.

I'll dispute you on that ANY DAY, ANYWHERE! I respect that you played the position, but I learned the position from some of the best Male and Female goalies to ever play. What do they teach and talk about? Mechanics, technique...the Fundamentals.

Hey Fergie25...tell Bill Pilat, Greg Cattrano, Heather Dow and Chris Lindsey that technique means "next to nothing". I really doubt if you'll get many to agree with your take. I have been working with Goalies(as well as other positions) for 28 years. I've trained enough HS and collegiate All-Americans that I'm comfortable saying I'll continue to do it my way.

[ckstevenson]

Sorry, but were any of the people on this thread actual women's college goaltenders? 'Technique' means next to nothing at that level. Every goalie is different. I was a 2x IWCLA all American goalie in college, there is no 'proper way' to make saves.

I'll dispute you on that ANY DAY, ANYWHERE! I respect that you played the position, but I learned the position from some of the best Male and Female goalies to ever play. What do they teach and talk about? Mechanics, technique...the Fundamentals.

Hey Fergie25...tell Bill Pilat, Greg Cattrano, Heather Dow and Chris Lindsey that technique means "next to nothing". I really doubt if you'll get many to agree with your take. I have been working with Goalies(as well as other positions) for 28 years. I've trained enough HS and collegiate All-Americans that I'm comfortable saying I'll continue to do it my way.

Reads like fergie25 didn't need your help to be a 2x IWCLA All-American goalie. So what does that indicate as to your overly strict view of fundamentals and your coaching approach?

[fergie25]

I guess my point is that I don't think that there is one blanket list of 'fundamentals' that make a good goalie, so it doesn't surprise me that some of the top goalies in the country this year play untraditionally. I apologize for coming off harsh, and I'm sure you're a great coach. But in my opinion, great goalkeeping is far more mental than it is physical.

[Shellax]

Morgan Lathrop- an all-time great goalie. She posted an 83-3 record and 4 rings.Unorthodox as they came.
https://nusports.com/sports/womens-lacr ... throp/1010

[Cletus]

I guess my point is that I don't think that there is one blanket list of 'fundamentals' that make a good goalie, so it doesn't surprise me that some of the top goalies in the country this year play untraditionally. I apologize for coming off harsh, and I'm sure you're a great coach. But in my opinion, great goalkeeping is far more mental than it is physical.

I don't think you came across harsh. I appreciated hearing from a former player. Your perspective has more weight because of it.

[LaxPundit07]

So, in conclusion, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Larry has a track record of success his way. Good for him.

Clearly it worked for Ferg to do it her way. Good for her.

Goalkeeping has always been about what works for that individual keeper to get the job done. I was trained by a former D1 All American who is also a D1 Head Coach with a national championship ring. He was UBER fundamental. But that doesn't mean his way was right and Ray Finnegan's way at Navy was wrong. They had different arcs, different hand placements etc. But they both have produced a bunch of All Americans.

[LaxPundit07]

Also, worth noting that coaching the position in the women's game is significantly different. I had a package of fundamentals I taught to the men's goalies and a different package of fundamentals for the women.

[Cletus]

Also, worth noting that coaching the position in the women's game is significantly different. I had a package of fundamentals I taught to the men's goalies and a different package of fundamentals for the women.

What are some of the differences?

[LaxPundit07]

Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.

[njbill]

“No pockets.” Haha. Depends on where you came from, I guess. Was just talking to a woman yesterday who graduated high school in 1996. She commented on the fact that today’s girls/women’s pockets (those on her daughter’s sticks) are a good bit deeper than they were back when she played. But, yes, compared to men’s: no pockets.

[LarryGamLax]

Also, worth noting that coaching the position in the women's game is significantly different. I had a package of fundamentals I taught to the men's goalies and a different package of fundamentals for the women.

What were the Fundamentals that YOU taught to women? I find this interesting because I don't do that. I know there are differences in the Men's and Women's game, but I tend to focus on the things that are similar as opposed to different. I'm looking for a level of consistency, not inconsistency. Maybe I'm ultra-crazy when it comes to THIS position, but I still see it as the MOST IMPORTANT position on the field. I'm amazed that people are willing to accept mediocrity instead of excellence.

BTW...only one goalie in the Final Four had a Save Pct. of over 50% for the season.

[LarryGamLax]

Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.

NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.

I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.

I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.

Curious to hear others on this matter.

[tothedraw]

Based on my coaching experience, there aren't youth goalie coaches and very few dedicated high school goalie coaches. Parents have to seek out goalie training and everyone has a different method. Or someone's Dad played goalie in the 80's and he volunteers. So the best young goalies are the best athletes period (and also willing to jump in there).They make those outrageous door step saves because they have super quick hands. I've know teams with really great athletic stoppers who also can't clear to save their lives. So, long winded but there just aren't enough coaches and/or knowledgeable coaches to give many (not all) of these athletes a solid base. College shooters are a whole new ball game and quick hands and feet don't always cut it.

Larry, how fundamentally sound is Rachel Hall ? Genuinely curious as I'm no goalie expert and she obviously had a phenomenal tournament.

[LaxPundit07]

Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.

NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.

I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.

I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.

Curious to hear others on this matter.

Are you a lawyer? You pick words apart like you get paid for it clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry!

And why all the CAPITAL LETTERS? Are you yelling when you do that? Did you miss the part where I said clearly you had a track record of success? Whatever you teach must be working, and whatever I taught worked as well—it took me from lowly D3 assistant to D1 head coach. And a kid from a non hot bed area to all American. You have your method. I have mine. That’s what makes the world go around!