Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[old salt]

Tell it to the Army Lieutenant who put his hands out the window and was pepper sprayed because he was afraid to move his hands below the window...

Still unanswered questions on that case :
-- was his temp lic plate visible at night or was it behind a heavily tinted rear window ?
-- how far did he drive before pulling ovewr ?
-- once he finally got to a well lighted public place. why did he argue & refuse to exit his vehicle.

Had he pulled over in a timely manner, had his lic & reg in his hands, clearly visible, & his window down when the cop approached, it likely would have played out differently. I suppose that's worked numerous times for me only because I'm white.

“Had he pulled over in a timely manner, had his lic & reg in his hands, clearly visible”

Timely? Whose definition? Rather than pulling over on the shoulder, he continued driving until he found a lighted parking lot.
I pull over as soon as I safely can & angle my car so the cop is shielded from traffic & it's obvious I can't speed off.

Unless you drive around with your license and registration at the ready, h3ll no!! If an officer sees you leaning over to get to your glovebox or pull out your wallet, you might be inviting ... death. My lic is in my wallet, my reg & ins in a small portfolio in my glovebox. As soon a I stop I immediately retrieve them & place them on my dash, put my window down & keep my hands visible on the wheel.
I've always had the documents out & in hand by the time the cop arrived at my door. There's usually a delay while they radio in my tags to check before they exit their vehicle.

When’s the last time you got “pulled over”? And more importantly, when is the last time you did while black?

Pulled over about a year ago. I used to get pulled over for speeding a lot. Not so much since I've moved up the road to the burbs from a rural area. I've only been ticketed twice in the past 40 years, but I've received numerous warnings in that time. I attribute that to the above technique, being cordial, non-confrontational & respectful, ...& of course, being white.

I can't recall being stopped after dark. I guess I do all my speeding in daylight.

[old salt]

Still unanswered questions on that case :
-- was his temp lic plate visible at night or was it behind a heavily tinted rear window ?
-- how far did he drive before pulling ovewr ?
-- once he finally got to a well lighted public place. why did he argue & refuse to exit his vehicle.

Had he pulled over in a timely manner, had his lic & reg in his hands, clearly visible, & his window down when the cop approached, it likely would have played out differently. I suppose that's worked numerous times for me only because I'm white.

That's exactly right.

For minority drivers, it is a common practice to drive slowly to a public, well lighted place, hopefully equipped with security cameras. While Lt. Nazario's technique didn't keep him from being pepper sprayed, he did survive and he was successful in getting Officer Gutierrez's jack ass immediately fired.

Officer Jack Ass admits the tactic is common and that he knew exactly what Lt. Nazario was doing:

The lawsuit contends Nazario signaled his compliance by activating his turn signal and continued driving below the posted 35 mph speed limit looking for a safe, well-lit place to stop. He found one less than a mile ahead: a BP gas station on the opposite side of the highway.

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority," the lawsuit claims.

Even though I'm a white guy, I will probably do this myself the next time I get pulled over.

So once he was in a well lighted area with video coverage, why did he not comply ?

Was his temp tag visible or behind a heavily tinted rear window ?

[ggait]

Officer Crocker's body cam footage (the cop who was behind the car) shows that the temporary tag was clearly visible. Top right corner of the back window. It is on the internet.

If the camera was able to see it, presumably the cop could too.

TBD if he didn't bother to look or didn't care.

P.S. You'd probably be a little tense about getting out of the car with (i) two guns aimed at you and (ii) Officer Jack Ass yelling about how he was going to mess you up and how you had good reason to be scared of getting out.

P.P.S. The Lt. had his seat belt on -- which is something crazed cop killers always do. He did not want to reach down to unbuckle the seat belt. Because with two gun trained on him, you'd reasonably worry about what the cops would think/do when his hand went out of sight....

[old salt]

Officer Crocker's body cam footage (the cop who was behind the car) shows that the temporary tag was clearly visible. Top right corner of the back window. It is on the internet.

If the camera was able to see it, presumably the cop could too.

TBD if he didn't bother to look or didn't care.

P.S. You'd probably be a little tense about getting out of the car with (i) two guns aimed at you and (ii) Officer Jack Ass yelling about how he was going to mess you up and how you had good reason to be scared of getting out.

P.P.S. The Lt. had his seat belt on -- which is something crazed cop killers always do. He did not want to reach down to unbuckle the seat belt. Because with two gun trained on him, you'd reasonably worry about what the cops would think/do when his hand went out of sight....

Clearly visible from a trailing vehicle driving on an unlighted road, or clearly visible standing behind the stationary vehicle in a well lighted parking lot ?

If in that situation, I would ask -- "may I use my right hand to unbuckle my seat belt " then "I my going to slowly raise my empty right hand back to where you can see it" then "may I use my left hand to open my door & step out, as you have told me to do ? "

PS -- I once got pulled over moving my unlicensed sports car from one storage garage to another. I hung a tag from one of my minivans on the sports car. A county deputy noticed from the format that it was a minivan or suv tag (dumb criminal me). He let me go & told me not to do it again.

[ggait]

We only have video from the gas station.

Tag is right in the top right hand corner. Look it up yourself.

Presumably a cop car with headlights and flashers on trailing a car driving under the 35 mph speed limit (which the cops' report confirms happened) would also generate enough lumens to see the temp tag.

Come on Salty. Even you have to admit this one was total Bravo Sierra. The Town of Windsor does -- they shirt canned Officer Dumb Ass on the spot.

And because Lt. Nazario had the presence of mind to stop in a well lighted place, he's still alive and will be collecting a big check from the town shortly.

SMH

[Typical Lax Dad]

Officer Crocker's body cam footage (the cop who was behind the car) shows that the temporary tag was clearly visible. Top right corner of the back window. It is on the internet.

If the camera was able to see it, presumably the cop could too.

TBD if he didn't bother to look or didn't care.

P.S. You'd probably be a little tense about getting out of the car with (i) two guns aimed at you and (ii) Officer Jack Ass yelling about how he was going to mess you up and how you had good reason to be scared of getting out.

P.P.S. The Lt. had his seat belt on -- which is something crazed cop killers always do. He did not want to reach down to unbuckle the seat belt. Because with two gun trained on him, you'd reasonably worry about what the cops would think/do when his hand went out of sight....

Clearly visible from a trailing vehicle driving on an unlighted road, or clearly visible standing behind the stationary vehicle in a well lighted parking lot ?

If in that situation, I would ask -- "may I use my right hand to unbuckle my seat belt " then "I my going to slowly raise my empty right hand back to where you can see it" then "may I use my left hand to open my door & step out, as you have told me to do ? "

PS -- I once got pulled over moving my unlicensed sports car from one storage garage to another. I hung a tag from one of my minivans on the sports car. A county deputy noticed from the format that it was a minivan or suv tag (dumb criminal me). He let me go & told me not to do it again.

YOU would ask....

[old salt]

We only have video from the gas station.

Tag is right in the top right hand corner. Look it up yourself.

Presumably a cop car with headlights and flashers on trailing a car driving under the 35 mph speed limit (which the cops' report confirms happened) would also generate enough lumens to see the temp tag.

Come on Salty. Even you have to admit this one was total Bravo Sierra. The Town of Windsor does -- they shirt canned Officer Dumb Ass on the spot.

And because Lt. Nazario had the presence of mind to stop in a well lighted place, he's still alive and will be collecting a big check from the town shortly.

SMH

You cite a video, so link it. Here's the video I found.
https://fox2now.com/news/national/lawsu ... ffic-stop/
Look at the start of it -- the temp tag is not visible. Once Lt Naz turns his car off & the cops turn off their gumballs & approach the suv, then the tag in the window starts to become visible, but only if you know it's there & you know where to look. Nowhere is it visible enough to read & run the numbers. Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Lt Nazaro was uncooperative & argumentative. Had he complied, the incident would not have escalated.
The cops were telling him that.
If the cops feel it's necessary to unholster their weapons, it's best to comply, then sort out the details.
obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

The cop needs sensitivity training. The lawsuit is without merit.

[old salt]

Officer Crocker's body cam footage (the cop who was behind the car) shows that the temporary tag was clearly visible. Top right corner of the back window. It is on the internet.

If the camera was able to see it, presumably the cop could too.

TBD if he didn't bother to look or didn't care.

P.S. You'd probably be a little tense about getting out of the car with (i) two guns aimed at you and (ii) Officer Jack Ass yelling about how he was going to mess you up and how you had good reason to be scared of getting out.

P.P.S. The Lt. had his seat belt on -- which is something crazed cop killers always do. He did not want to reach down to unbuckle the seat belt. Because with two gun trained on him, you'd reasonably worry about what the cops would think/do when his hand went out of sight....

Clearly visible from a trailing vehicle driving on an unlighted road, or clearly visible standing behind the stationary vehicle in a well lighted parking lot ?

If in that situation, I would ask -- "may I use my right hand to unbuckle my seat belt " then "I my going to slowly raise my empty right hand back to where you can see it" then "may I use my left hand to open my door & step out, as you have told me to do ? "

PS -- I once got pulled over moving my unlicensed sports car from one storage garage to another. I hung a tag from one of my minivans on the sports car. A county deputy noticed from the format that it was a minivan or suv tag (dumb criminal me). He let me go & told me not to do it again.

YOU would ask....

Laugh all you like. I've escaped a bunch of ticket-able situations, with pink slip warnings.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Officer Crocker's body cam footage (the cop who was behind the car) shows that the temporary tag was clearly visible. Top right corner of the back window. It is on the internet.

If the camera was able to see it, presumably the cop could too.

TBD if he didn't bother to look or didn't care.

P.S. You'd probably be a little tense about getting out of the car with (i) two guns aimed at you and (ii) Officer Jack Ass yelling about how he was going to mess you up and how you had good reason to be scared of getting out.

P.P.S. The Lt. had his seat belt on -- which is something crazed cop killers always do. He did not want to reach down to unbuckle the seat belt. Because with two gun trained on him, you'd reasonably worry about what the cops would think/do when his hand went out of sight....

Clearly visible from a trailing vehicle driving on an unlighted road, or clearly visible standing behind the stationary vehicle in a well lighted parking lot ?

If in that situation, I would ask -- "may I use my right hand to unbuckle my seat belt " then "I my going to slowly raise my empty right hand back to where you can see it" then "may I use my left hand to open my door & step out, as you have told me to do ? "

PS -- I once got pulled over moving my unlicensed sports car from one storage garage to another. I hung a tag from one of my minivans on the sports car. A county deputy noticed from the format that it was a minivan or suv tag (dumb criminal me). He let me go & told me not to do it again.

YOU would ask....

Laugh all you like. I've escaped a bunch of ticket-able situations, with pink slip warnings.

[old salt]

Considering the story MaKhia Brown's family is trying to propogate, it's understandable why the Columbus Police released the body cam video so quickly.

https://meaww.com/who-is-hazel-bryant-m ... e-shooting
Hazel said that Ma'khia was in front of the house fending off a physical assault when police shot her four times without any warning. She said that she had been told of the events by Ma'Khia's grandmother and father. “The police are going to lie. I’m so thankful that someone from the family was actually on the scene,” Bryant said before the release of the body-cam footage. “The police are going to lie. The police are going to cover up for themselves. They don’t care. At this point, I feel like they’re just out to kill Black people. They’re not here to protect and serve. That isn’t happening. That’s been over a long time ago. They’re not here to protect and serve. They’re here to kill Black folks.”

https://meaww.com/makhia-bryant-shot-ki ... -reactions
Explaining the order of events, Hazel said that the teenager had called 911 because someone tried to jump her. When the police officers arrived, they saw a knife on the ground and before she could explain herself, they shot her four times in the chest.


Wonder how much the GoFundMe page has generated ? Mom & Auntie will be tv stars.

Can you even hear yourself? A person, probably of unsound judgement, but a human being none the less, was just shot four times and is dead.

You’re kind of special, OldSalt. I wonder who will mourn your passing?

No one should mourn, if I die trying to kill someone,
The family is trolling for sympathy & $$$. With that much family present, why was the kid in foster care.
The family should take responsibility, feel shame, not sympathy & stop trying to blame others for their failure.

What’s your excuse for your lack of empathy?

I have no empathy for people who do not take responsibility for their own actions & seek only to blame others for their own failings.

And yet, you have plenty of empathy for DOPUS.

Anytime after VP Pence was sworn in, I would not have mourned had Pres Trump departed the scene, due to natural causes.
I feel that way even more so now, given his post election performance. Is that the sort of empathy you're looking to share ?

[ggait]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

[dislaxxic]

Exactly ....it is a perfect example of what NOT to do, by both sides.

YEAH! There are bad people on BOTH sides...so why get so worked up about one "side" if you're not going to get worked up about the other??

...cause they're - like - just the same.

..

[dislaxxic]

Body cams on All the time when on duty. You go on to state there is no practical reason for the cameras not to be on. I’ll share a few.

Some cities and agencies have Employee Assistance Programs staffed by licensed professional counselors to help their employees in a variety of areas. Work relationships, family issues that are effecting your work, your mental and physical health, drug or alcohol matters etc. Supervisors can recommend an employee partake and employees can voluntarily ask to use the service. Regardless, these are all confidential encounters and cops are ON DUTY during these visits. In addition to EAPs, some police agencies, the larger ones I’m aware of, have staff psychologists for officers to meet with to confidentially discuss various matters. Again, appointments can take place while on duty.

How about traumatized rape victims, victims of spousal abuse or other traumatic situation involving victims. Sure record everything and add to their misery. Were you one those during another discussion who suggested cops should have no discretion? Fortunately, some agencies have policies allowing officers to turn off their body cams in this type of situation.

Yeah record away. I’m sure you’ve seen some movie or cop show where the cop involved in a shooting has to visit a shrink. Well, that actually does take place. Yeah, go ahead and record the whole thing.

Then there are privacy issues that even the ACLU agrees there are times and circumstances cops should not have their body cam on. Sometimes common citizens can file an Open Record request for the video. Besides the cost of storage issues, the Open Records Act is one of the reasons many agencies try to delete videos depending on their legal requirements, usually 60 or 90 days for videos of a non evidentiary nature or part of an investigation.

There are many more, mundane reasons....you stated they should be on ALl the time, do the cops have it on while eating, taking a dump?? Great use of technology.

Here’s a read for you. https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resourc ... 246869.pdf

That's some good info, there. Thanks 6.

The issue gets SO mangled...with sound bite phrases and concepts.

Like "defund". Mangled beyond belief. 6, can you make any actual sense of the notion of re-directing...re-purposing funding...as opposed to "take away all their money!"

Yeah, there IS a huge difference.

And while you're at it...your perspective on Limited Immunity?

..

[old salt]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

When I've had temp tags i mounted them where the regular tag goes so they'd be visible & illuminated.
You can get a ticket for mounting a tinted license plate cover over you regular plates.
License plate covers are illegal in Maryland. The fine for using a cover is $70, according to theDistrict Court of Maryland. The law also prohibits selling or promoting the use of covers and carries a $70 fine for each violation.

So he assumed he was black ? Or are you assuming he made that assumption ? Are those the officers actual words or another lawyer paraphrasing him. (no link provided). What about the 20% ? The cops couldn't know what they were dealing with. Because of the heavily tinted windows they couldn't tell how many people were in the suv. Are blacks the only ones who'd continue to a lighted area to stop ? You said you would. Most women alone would.

This happened in Dec. It was immediately investigated & a copy of the video provided to Nazario's lawyer.
The officer was disciplined in Jan & continued on duty. He wasn't fired until the suit was filed, the video given to the media & posted on social media & then the sh!t storm ensued & the Chief lost confidence in the officer's ability to serve that small community.
One less hispanic officer on the force.

Listen to their Chief & try to see it from the cops pov when judging the cop's actions, which I believe is what the law says we should.
The details start at about the 18:00 mark. The Chief critiques the officer early in the video starting at 05:20.

[Typical Lax Dad]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

I hope he takes them to the cleaners....

[old salt]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

I hope he takes them to the cleaners....

Rest assured. He will. He claims he is Eric Garner's cousin.

[Typical Lax Dad]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

I hope he takes them to the cleaners....

Rest assured. He will. He claims he is Eric Garner's cousin.

They look alike.

[old salt]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

I hope he takes them to the cleaners....

Rest assured. He will. He claims he is Eric Garner's cousin.

They look alike.

Make that nephew. I wonder if they have the same lawyer ?
They'll soon own their own small town in VA renamed Garnerville.

https://www.essence.com/news/did-you-kn ... ic-garner/

[Typical Lax Dad]

obtw -- how did they know he was black before they approached his door ?

OBTW, Officer Jack Ass admits on tape that he assumes the driver was a minority before the interaction starts. Because he drove to a well lighted place:

Gutierrez acknowledged that Nazario's decision to drive to a lighted area occurs "a lot ... 80% of the time," and that the maneuver informed him that Nazario was "at least 80% probability, a minority."

Is there not a rqmt for the rear tag to be illuminated ?

Seriously? Have you never had a temp tag taped in your window? How exactly are you supposed to rig up lighting for a paper tag? FYI, people drive with paper tags all the time. So if a cop sees a vehicle without a rear license plate, the obvious thing to do is to look for a paper tag. Nah -- that's so lame. Let's go O.K. Corral instead!

Come on Salty.

The temp tag is obviously there. And there is ZERO reason to have two guns drawn after the guy leads the cops on a sub-35 mph car chase with the blinker on.

That lawsuit is $$$$ money.

I hope he takes them to the cleaners....

Rest assured. He will. He claims he is Eric Garner's cousin.

They look alike.

Make that nephew. I wonder if they have the same lawyer ?
They'll soon own their own small town in VA renamed Garnerville.

https://www.essence.com/news/did-you-kn ... ic-garner/

They all look alike

[ggait]

So he assumed he was black ? Or are you assuming he made that assumption ? Are those the officers actual words or another lawyer paraphrasing him. (no link provided). What about the 20% ?

JFC Salty. The cops words are on tape. Verbatim quote. Look it up.

Your argument that the cop wasn't profiling the guy as a minority was because that cop said on tape that there was ONLY an 80% chance the guy was minority???? Bahahahaha. I'm sure NJ Bill would love to cross-examine the witness on that fine argument. Sheesh.

FYI, same Lt. was pulled over for speeding in the same town a couple weeks before. Lt. drives to a super market parking lot -- same playbook. Officer Cool asks about the no plate and then calmly calls in the temp tag in the window (which is from NYS and presumably how they do it there). Since the Lt. got no ticket for the window tag presumably that's aok in VA. Lt did get a speeding ticket.

Officer Cool doesn't pull his weapon, doesn't act like a dick; doesn't demand that the Lt. exit the vehicle; checks the obvious paper tag for legal compliance. No drama, no danger, no bull shirt. Officer Cool still has his job and Officer Jack Ass is fired on the spot. And rightly so.


https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/is ... ieutenant/