Conservative Ideology: A Big Lie

[Farfromgeneva]

Funny that tRump complains about what he claims is government repression and injustice towards him. Yet he still refuses to apologize for demanding the death penalty against the Central Park Five even when it was proven that they were innocent. No question that tRump is the biggest crybaby there is in all of politics.

Trump is many things and almost all of them are bad. But, he is like puss - he is a symptom of the infection not the cause.

What’s the cause?

I will start with the gutting of the middle class and increasing income disparity.

What and who’s responsible for that and define the timeframe and definition of middle class. As a ratio of income or assets to debt or some other metrics so I can understand the framework of this being the cause.

I don’t know, I grew up without much at all in the 80s and 90s so I’m suspicious of this vast middle class referenced so often. Is it my uncle w a associates degree from CCC who became a line mgr for Kodak, a failing business that never had a chance as technology evolved and was bought out of his job in the 2000s (before his wife died and then he killed hismelf)? That 5-10yr period he was comfortable in a job that was low skill and overpaid for the value of the product delivered in a digital film world?

Why isn’t the Democratic Party as off their rocker on the whole because they are every hit as responsible as republicans for increasing distribution issues? Why is this response even appropriate by these people?

[Farfromgeneva]

Jesus can we stop talking about the Dixie Chicks. No one cares about them except one dude in St Paul.

[Seacoaster(1)]

I can look past Trump to evaluate the execution of the warrant on his property. But the fact that the warrant on probable cause was carried out at a former President's residence (and erstwhile southern White House) makes the issues -- the warrant and the person -- hard to decouple.

In any event, it is true -- people like Putin send federal police into homes (and kill people in flowery British parks). Here, invoking Putin is, well, ludicrous. Investigators from the FBI visited the home on several occasions and developed a body of evidence that was then almost certainly presented to the DOJ, probably at the Criminal Division level first, and then escalating to the Deputy AG Monaco and then to the AG. After a full evaluation of the evidence, including its apparently classified nature and national security ramifications, a decision is made to package the investigation in a petition to a life tenured federal judge or a federal magistrate judge with a ten or 14 (I forget) year term of office. The judge is a completely independent figure in this drama, and he or she knows that the warrant is directed at the residence of a former POTUS. A warrant then issued. He or she had to make a decision as to whether there appeared to be probable cause that a crime had been or was being committed. This is a high bar in the federal courts, and not a situation in which my uncle's friend Bobby Smith is a judge and he'll sign anything. Note that Trump actually has the warrant now, and has, to my knowledge, thus far declined to disclose its contents (federal criminal laws at issue, and scope of the warrant, at least). This warrant allowed the FBI to crack a safe, apparently, so its scope was broad and serious.

So far we have an independent FBI, headed by a Trump appointee; an independent executive agency charged with enforcement of the laws of the United States, in the person of a former federal appellate judge with pristine and impeccable credentials, whose mission has been to recreate the nearly ruined independence of the DOJ from the Sessions, Whitaker, Barr years. And then we have an independent and long-tenured federal judge sitting in judgment of the compilation of evidence. Putinesque? No f*cking way.

Describing these people as "his cops" is, respectfully, ridiculous. Normal White Houses do not get advance notice of federal criminal investigations, and in this respect, this is a normal White House unless you can show us something creditable to refute that. That Garland "reports to POTUS" doesn't change this. Federal criminal investigations are secret, and the secrecy of this one is astonishing. No leaks coming up to it; the events appeared in the paper at the same time for nearly everyone.

Nor is the execution of the warrant -- and all of the process of evaluation and gainsaying that led up to it -- an exercise of Presidential power. This was an independent investigation by the FBI, an independent and highly sensitive evaluation of the materials collected by senior Justice Department officials, including line officers and political appointees, and the final imprimatur of a federal judge. The Office of the President is simply not involved.

The execution of the warrant is not proof of any crime. And folks who are taking it that way don't understand what's happening. But on social media, everyone is an expert, so....

The sensitive nature of the subject of the evidence, application and warrant cannot be understated. The checks and balances here are obvious and exist throughout the long process. Again, not Putin-like. Indeed, the farthest thing from Putin.

[Brooklyn]

Jesus can we stop talking about the Dixie Chicks. No one cares about them except one dude in St Paul.

Many right wing delusionals got angry over the fact that they were exercising their right of free speech. After all this time there are still veterans in hospitals because of injuries they got in his war. Right wingers care less about them than they do about the Chicks.

[HooDat]

Jesus can we stop talking about the Dixie Chicks. No one cares about them except one dude in St Paul.

Many right wing delusionals got angry over the fact that they were exercising their right of free speech. After all this time there are still veterans in hospitals because of injuries they got in his war. Right wingers care less about them than they do about the Chicks.

It was much more a case of the people from Texas feeling like the Chicks' comment about being ashamed to be from Texas was a rejection of the state rather than a rejection of just Bush. Whole thing was blown out of proportion as one more thing to get but hurt about....

[Brooklyn]

It was much more a case of the people from Texas feeling like the Chicks' comment about being ashamed to be from Texas was a rejection of the state rather than a rejection of just Bush. Whole thing was blown out of proportion as one more thing to get but hurt about....

Hell, I'd be ashamed of being from Texass, too.

[MDlaxfan76]

Funny that tRump complains about what he claims is government repression and injustice towards him. Yet he still refuses to apologize for demanding the death penalty against the Central Park Five even when it was proven that they were innocent. No question that tRump is the biggest crybaby there is in all of politics.

Trump is many things and almost all of them are bad. But, he is like puss - he is a symptom of the infection not the cause.

Agreed on that, which is why another, more competent politician could be far more dangerous. Taking advantage of that infection.

I have been meaning to ask (because I assume this is what you are alluding to). It seems that you see DeSantis in that role, why? If you can, keep references to "dog whistle" type arguments to a minimum - I'd like to be convinced, but that type of argument won't convince me.

And it should not convince you!

I've written a whole lot about DeSantis on a thread ole Petey began as a way to promote DeSantis, and I've written quite a lot about why I see him as indeed a "competent fascist" and thus, actually more of an issue than is Trump. Especially in the context of all the signals from leading GOP politicians, media, and orgs like CPAC, that authoritarianism and ideologies like "Christian Nationalism" are embraced by the base.

DeSantis has signaled more than simply "dog whistles", though I think those should be taken very seriously as well, given the context in which he does so. Those are signals of embracing those receiving them, not rejecting these previously most extreme, fringe elements...unfortunately, they no longer are the fringe, they've been mainstreamed by the right wing media and politicians fearful of that media and the base.

And in doing so, DeSantis has not only pandered to that new, ugly base, he has purposely demonized others with an intention to divide not win over voters. Straight out populist demonization and divisiveness, right out of the fascist playbook. All the while claiming "patriotism" and waving the flag.

DeSantis has directly used the power of the executive in ways that prior Governors of Florida would have never considered. Lots of examples.

It's rather chilling in the aggregate.

Likewise, he's actively used his powers to appoint those who are willing to do his most extreme bidding, regardless of their own lack of competence or appropriateness for the job. And purged or pressured those less compliant. His health secretary being a prime example of someone who should never been even close to such a job. And now firing a DA twice elected by the voters.

Again, this is what these new GOP base voters love: a "strong man" in authority using all of his powers to divide and force others to submit to his will, their will personified.

[LaxFan2000]

Funny that tRump complains about what he claims is government repression and injustice towards him. Yet he still refuses to apologize for demanding the death penalty against the Central Park Five even when it was proven that they were innocent. No question that tRump is the biggest crybaby there is in all of politics.

Trump is many things and almost all of them are bad. But, he is like puss - he is a symptom of the infection not the cause.

Agreed on that, which is why another, more competent politician could be far more dangerous. Taking advantage of that infection.

I have been meaning to ask (because I assume this is what you are alluding to). It seems that you see DeSantis in that role, why? If you can, keep references to "dog whistle" type arguments to a minimum - I'd like to be convinced, but that type of argument won't convince me.

And it should not convince you!

I've written a whole lot about DeSantis on a thread ole Petey began as a way to promote DeSantis, and I've written quite a lot about why I see him as indeed a "competent fascist" and thus, actually more of an issue than is Trump. Especially in the context of all the signals from leading GOP politicians, media, and orgs like CPAC, that authoritarianism and ideologies like "Christian Nationalism" are embraced by the base.

DeSantis has signaled more than simply "dog whistles", though I think those should be taken very seriously as well, given the context in which he does so. Those are signals of embracing those receiving them, not rejecting these previously most extreme, fringe elements...unfortunately, they no longer are the fringe, they've been mainstreamed by the right wing media and politicians fearful of that media and the base.

And in doing so, DeSantis has not only pandered to that new, ugly base, he has purposely demonized others with an intention to divide not win over voters. Straight out populist demonization and divisiveness, right out of the fascist playbook. All the while claiming "patriotism" and waving the flag.

DeSantis has directly used the power of the executive in ways that prior Governors of Florida would have never considered. Lots of examples.

It's rather chilling in the aggregate.

Likewise, he's actively used his powers to appoint those who are willing to do his most extreme bidding, regardless of their own lack of competence or appropriateness for the job. And purged or pressured those less compliant. His health secretary being a prime example of someone who should never been even close to such a job. And now firing a DA twice elected by the voters.

Again, this is what these new GOP base voters love: a "strong man" in authority using all of his powers to divide and force others to submit to his will, their will personified.

How will this change your daily life if he becomes elected?

[Farfromgeneva]

Jesus can we stop talking about the Dixie Chicks. No one cares about them except one dude in St Paul.

Many right wing delusionals got angry over the fact that they were exercising their right of free speech. After all this time there are still veterans in hospitals because of injuries they got in his war. Right wingers care less about them than they do about the Chicks.

It was much more a case of the people from Texas feeling like the Chicks' comment about being ashamed to be from Texas was a rejection of the state rather than a rejection of just Bush. Whole thing was blown out of proportion as one more thing to get but hurt about....

I literally would NEVER think about them or that spec of dust in time except it’s bright up a gazillion times by exactly one person.

[MDlaxfan76]

Funny that tRump complains about what he claims is government repression and injustice towards him. Yet he still refuses to apologize for demanding the death penalty against the Central Park Five even when it was proven that they were innocent. No question that tRump is the biggest crybaby there is in all of politics.

Trump is many things and almost all of them are bad. But, he is like puss - he is a symptom of the infection not the cause.

Agreed on that, which is why another, more competent politician could be far more dangerous. Taking advantage of that infection.

I have been meaning to ask (because I assume this is what you are alluding to). It seems that you see DeSantis in that role, why? If you can, keep references to "dog whistle" type arguments to a minimum - I'd like to be convinced, but that type of argument won't convince me.

And it should not convince you!

I've written a whole lot about DeSantis on a thread ole Petey began as a way to promote DeSantis, and I've written quite a lot about why I see him as indeed a "competent fascist" and thus, actually more of an issue than is Trump. Especially in the context of all the signals from leading GOP politicians, media, and orgs like CPAC, that authoritarianism and ideologies like "Christian Nationalism" are embraced by the base.

DeSantis has signaled more than simply "dog whistles", though I think those should be taken very seriously as well, given the context in which he does so. Those are signals of embracing those receiving them, not rejecting these previously most extreme, fringe elements...unfortunately, they no longer are the fringe, they've been mainstreamed by the right wing media and politicians fearful of that media and the base.

And in doing so, DeSantis has not only pandered to that new, ugly base, he has purposely demonized others with an intention to divide not win over voters. Straight out populist demonization and divisiveness, right out of the fascist playbook. All the while claiming "patriotism" and waving the flag.

DeSantis has directly used the power of the executive in ways that prior Governors of Florida would have never considered. Lots of examples.

It's rather chilling in the aggregate.

Likewise, he's actively used his powers to appoint those who are willing to do his most extreme bidding, regardless of their own lack of competence or appropriateness for the job. And purged or pressured those less compliant. His health secretary being a prime example of someone who should never been even close to such a job. And now firing a DA twice elected by the voters.

Again, this is what these new GOP base voters love: a "strong man" in authority using all of his powers to divide and force others to submit to his will, their will personified.

How will this change your daily life if he becomes elected?

How would it change yours?
(If you want to participate in this discussion HooDat and I are having, tell us your views)

For my part, I feel extremely fortunate to be a citizen of the greatest country in the world, largely because we have had a vibrant, if imperfect, democracy as our political system. I care less about my own short term "daily life" (I'd probably be just fine financially given my various advantages today) than I do about what kind of America my son and hopefully grandchildren will inhabit over the many decades ahead.

I take nothing for granted.

[HooDat]

I've written a whole lot about DeSantis on a thread ole Petey began

Coming off a "sabbatical" so I haven't seen your views.

In thinking about DeSantis, it will touch on my views about governors and my admitted bias toward state power over federal.

Below I throw out a few observations to add a little spice into the pot, see where it takes us.

1. I tend to think that humans thrive locally
2. I believe that one of the things that has made the USA a great country is that we have historically benefited from bottom up governance with (up to) 50 states trying different things and then the other states being able to emulate best practices.
3. Starting with Lincoln, accelerating under FDR & Johnson and gaining even more momentum since Bush (Sr) the federal government has had more and more influence over people's daily lives
4. During that time, Congress has "delegated" more and more of it's authority to the Executive branch resulting in a lot more top-down rather than bottom up governing.
5. An increased disparity in the distribution of income and wealth has coincided with the shift to the increase in centralized power and top-down governing.
6. I believe our country would benefit from state governors being as important as the POTUS particularly when it comes to domestic matters.
7. I also believe that since a major flaw in democracy is that those who get power, had to desire and seek out power - the federal government is not going to willingly give up the power it has collected to itself.
8. Therefore, if more decision making is going to shift back to the states, it is going to require strong governors.

9. Could a state's rights person's strong governor be a federally inclined person's strongman?

To the extent DeSantis is a strong governor and not a strongman - there is a part of me that (even if I determined he was the best politician I knew) would rather see him stay in Florida to continue to (appropriately) be a burr under the saddle of the power hungry in the federal government.

[a fan]

I've written a whole lot about DeSantis on a thread ole Petey began

Coming off a "sabbatical" so I haven't seen your views.

In thinking about DeSantis, it will touch on my views about governors and my admitted bias toward state power over federal.

Below I throw out a few observations to add a little spice into the pot, see where it takes us.

1. I tend to think that humans thrive locally
2. I believe that one of the things that has made the USA a great country is that we have historically benefited from bottom up governance with (up to) 50 states trying different things and then the other states being able to emulate best practices.
3. Starting with Lincoln, accelerating under FDR & Johnson and gaining even more momentum since Bush (Sr) the federal government has had more and more influence over people's daily lives
4. During that time, Congress has "delegated" more and more of it's authority to the Executive branch resulting in a lot more top-down rather than bottom up governing.
5. An increased disparity in the distribution of income and wealth has coincided with the shift to the increase in centralized power and top-down governing.

I agree with everything you said here, and this is a solid position on governance.

Couple of comments.

1. this ignores that individual States cannot, under any circumstances, compete in the free market without a massive Federal Government, giving them ----essentially----hand outs. New York, Texas, an California can EASILY compete in a global market on their own. Arkansas, Idaho, and Alaska? Not a chance. They'd fall apart almost instantly without all the Federal funding they enjoy...every penny of it borrowed.

2. the income disparity hasn't occurred because of centralized power and top governing. I can point to several countries that have that style of governance....yet the income disparity isn't there.


Given my point #1....what's your plan if we shrink the Federal Government? Or, to be more mathematical about it: whats your plan for States that TAKE far more from the Federal Government than they give back in taxes? Think: Rural Hospitals that cannot survive without Federal Funding.

Most States are not self sufficient, HooDat.


BTW...it's nice having you back!

[MDlaxfan76]

a fan makes interesting and important points, but none of that has anything to do with my concern about a Governor who is authoritarian within his own state, which is what I am indicating is DeSantis' pattern.

It's not about taking powers back from the Federal government, it's that he is acting as a bully within his own state, usurping powers from the even more local jurisdictions that typically would have those powers to themselves. That's directly in contrast with the principles HooDat is espousing.

Quite dictatorial, and moreover highly divisive. Not simply "strong", but a strongman. I'd contrast that with Governors who are quite "strong" but who nevertheless find ways to bring people together, rather than exploit divisiveness through rather outrageous propaganda efforts. My GOP Governor Hogan being an example of such a positive Governor.

Thus, my easy prediction that if DeSantis had the opportunity to be POTUS, he would leap to the opportunity to consolidate all available powers, through whatever ugly means necessary.

And it's not as if the GOP isn't telling us that's exactly what they will do IF they gain power. Really, we're going to give a POTUS the power to fire all the civil servants who do not sign a loyalty oath to the POTUS ??? Rather than to the Constitution???

And they are continuing to promulgate the Big Lie that the elections, if they don't go their way, are obviously thus crooked and so can and should be overturned through raw force if necessary. So, are replacing the key election officials, State AG's etc unless they swear fealty to such Big Lie.

Again, give me a candidate who clearly rejects all of that and I'll consider them very seriously.
But DeSantis has blown that chance with me. Too much clear evidence.

The arguments about "State's Rights" are a whole other discussion, with which I lean quite differently for all sorts of historical reasons as well as belief in our multi-level governance, with balance of powers throughout being a core principle.

But that's not the concern about DeSantis.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Another day and still, no release by Trump of the warrant or inventory of items seized. Why is that, you think?

1. Better to fundraise without disclosing the bona fides of the warrant and inventory?

2. Warrant and inventory demonstrate the existence of classified material at a private residence?

3. Warrant and inventory themselves disclose the existence of classified information and cannot be disclosed pursuant to an order of the warrant-issuing court?

[PizzaSnake]

Another day and still, no release by Trump of the warrant or inventory of items seized. Why is that, you think?

1. Better to fundraise without disclosing the bona fides of the warrant and inventory?

2. Warrant and inventory demonstrate the existence of classified material at a private residence?

3. Warrant and inventory themselves disclose the existence of classified information and cannot be disclosed pursuant to an order of the warrant-issuing court?

1. and 2.

[CU88]

Sandy Hook families’ lawyer confirms that a naked photo of Alex Jones’s wife was on his phone, but adds that Alex sent that naked photo of his wife to Roger Stone.

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... 9572427776

[MDlaxfan76]

Sandy Hook families’ lawyer confirms that a naked photo of Alex Jones’s wife was on his phone, but adds that Alex sent that naked photo of his wife to Roger Stone.

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... 9572427776

I think it's the ex-wife, unless he's married again.
She hates him, nasty custody battle...

[jhu72]

Sandy Hook families’ lawyer confirms that a naked photo of Alex Jones’s wife was on his phone, but adds that Alex sent that naked photo of his wife to Roger Stone.

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... 9572427776

... and both of these guys are heros of the right. Each awarded the Knights Cross with Golden Oakleaves. MAGA

[jhu72]

a fan makes interesting and important points, but none of that has anything to do with my concern about a Governor who is authoritarian within his own state, which is what I am indicating is DeSantis' pattern.

It's not about taking powers back from the Federal government, it's that he is acting as a bully within his own state, usurping powers from the even more local jurisdictions that typically would have those powers to themselves. That's directly in contrast with the principles HooDat is espousing.

Quite dictatorial, and moreover highly divisive. Not simply "strong", but a strongman. I'd contrast that with Governors who are quite "strong" but who nevertheless find ways to bring people together, rather than exploit divisiveness through rather outrageous propaganda efforts. My GOP Governor Hogan being an example of such a positive Governor.

Thus, my easy prediction that if DeSantis had the opportunity to be POTUS, he would leap to the opportunity to consolidate all available powers, through whatever ugly means necessary.

And it's not as if the GOP isn't telling us that's exactly what they will do IF they gain power. Really, we're going to give a POTUS the power to fire all the civil servants who do not sign a loyalty oath to the POTUS ??? Rather than to the Constitution???

And they are continuing to promulgate the Big Lie that the elections, if they don't go their way, are obviously thus crooked and so can and should be overturned through raw force if necessary. So, are replacing the key election officials, State AG's etc unless they swear fealty to such Big Lie.

Again, give me a candidate who clearly rejects all of that and I'll consider them very seriously.
But DeSantis has blown that chance with me. Too much clear evidence.

The arguments about "State's Rights" are a whole other discussion, with which I lean quite differently for all sorts of historical reasons as well as belief in our multi-level governance, with balance of powers throughout being a core principle.

But that's not the concern about DeSantis.

... if it acts like one, walks like one, talks like one --- IT'S ONE!

[MDlaxfan76]

a fan makes interesting and important points, but none of that has anything to do with my concern about a Governor who is authoritarian within his own state, which is what I am indicating is DeSantis' pattern.

It's not about taking powers back from the Federal government, it's that he is acting as a bully within his own state, usurping powers from the even more local jurisdictions that typically would have those powers to themselves. That's directly in contrast with the principles HooDat is espousing.

Quite dictatorial, and moreover highly divisive. Not simply "strong", but a strongman. I'd contrast that with Governors who are quite "strong" but who nevertheless find ways to bring people together, rather than exploit divisiveness through rather outrageous propaganda efforts. My GOP Governor Hogan being an example of such a positive Governor.

Thus, my easy prediction that if DeSantis had the opportunity to be POTUS, he would leap to the opportunity to consolidate all available powers, through whatever ugly means necessary.

And it's not as if the GOP isn't telling us that's exactly what they will do IF they gain power. Really, we're going to give a POTUS the power to fire all the civil servants who do not sign a loyalty oath to the POTUS ??? Rather than to the Constitution???

And they are continuing to promulgate the Big Lie that the elections, if they don't go their way, are obviously thus crooked and so can and should be overturned through raw force if necessary. So, are replacing the key election officials, State AG's etc unless they swear fealty to such Big Lie.

Again, give me a candidate who clearly rejects all of that and I'll consider them very seriously.
But DeSantis has blown that chance with me. Too much clear evidence.

The arguments about "State's Rights" are a whole other discussion, with which I lean quite differently for all sorts of historical reasons as well as belief in our multi-level governance, with balance of powers throughout being a core principle.

But that's not the concern about DeSantis.

... if it acts like one, walks like one, talks like one --- IT'S ONE!

Apparently others have been having this reaction too:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/10/politics ... index.html

Note, this is the Orban model, nascent, but it's what is coming...