January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[cradleandshoot]

I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.

Beck's is now brewed in Saint Louis, Missouri.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... -packaging

I did not know that. Is it still brewed in Germany?

[FannOLax]

I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.

Beck's is now brewed in Saint Louis, Missouri.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... -packaging

I did not know that. Is it still brewed in Germany?

Edit: I'm not sure.

[Kismet]

I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.

Beck's is now brewed in Saint Louis, Missouri.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... -packaging

I did not know that. Is it still brewed in Germany?

Edit: I'm not sure.

From the mid 70s-early 2000s both Miller and Labatt's made Lowenbrau in North America. Although Labatt's started up again brewing it in Ontario in 2014 for the Canadian market only. I believe it is currently imported to the USA from Germany again.

Beck's is part of Anheuser Busch and has been since 2012 when they started making it in St Louis rather than importing it from Germany.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.

Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....

Moosehead or Guinness!! Why not add St. Pauli Girl!? You can do better: Jever, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner, Rothaus Pils, Paulaner are all acceptable.

Moosehead went out in the 80’s. TLD has the right choices.

Argentinian Malbec and Chilean Carmenere is what you drink when on a budget or don’t know better.

There is excellent Malbec, but it’s grown in the Loire Valley near Angers and known as Côt. It’s pale in color, profile of red fruits and wet earth and delightfully quaffable.

https://louisdressner.com/wines?wine=VD ... ont%C3%A9s

I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.

If you want a good beer on a budget, these are acceptable:





Relatively cheap.

[MDlaxfan76]

That said, he did enter the grounds and IMO is therefore guilty of criminal trespass.

Is he ? IF by the time he entered the grounds --
-- the police had retreated, the barriers carried away, no warning signs visible, & he was just moving with a large crowd ?

That's probably why not everyone in the crowd who set foot on the Capitol grounds is being charged.

Big difference, IMO, between those who entered the building and those outside...there were no open, undamaged doors...all were broken, windows next to them broken. There could be zero doubt that it was violently breached and going in was very illegal. Of course, if there's evidence of assault, that takes it up much higher still.

Which doesn't mean that someone couldn't be just as guilty outside if in any way involved in the violence. It's all criminal trespass, but the ratchet up to 'violent entry and disorderly conduct' is for those where that applies. Simply being in the building probably gets you to that level.

I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.

Back to the intent level, absolutely the charging would likely be different for those remorseful and cooperative (as well as non violent) versus those definitely not remorseful. These guys were the opposite of remorseful...still are.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two- ... us-capitol

And now it's super clear that Robertson is very dangerous. This is sort of guy I'd charge with sedition. Absolutely should know better, but was definitely intent on overthrow of election results and took direct action to that end.

Frankly, I think a whole lot of them are guilty of sedition, though I think it's likely to be a charge reserved for only the very most organized, pre-planning, etc and a heck of a lot of evidence of such intent. Prosecutors tend to gravitate to slam dunk charges first, only adding more when they gather more evidence.

And I continue to think that Trump, Trump Jr, Giuliani, Flynn, Powell and host of Representatives and Senators are the biggest perps of all.

“I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.”

Why not charge EVERY SINGLE ONE of them?

Personal responsibility and accountability, right?

I wouldn't take issue with that, though I don't think it's practical.

I do think the resources need to be applied to going after the most serious perpetrators, whether those there or those inciting them.

[old salt]

Gonna need OS, complicit armchair attorney and flak for MAGA, to rescue here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... itol-riot/

The court papers obtained by The Washington Post detail Klein’s alleged conduct throughout the siege of the Capitol, tracing his apparent movements and actions from using a police shield to try to pry a door open, to calling for reinforcements from the crowd...

Robertson was not charged with doing anything that serious or violent on Jan 6th, yet still a felony obstrution charge.

There's no reporting that Robertson confronted or assaulted police or engaged in violence.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/ex ... wn-better/
The D.C. Circuit recently remarked that ‘those who actually assaulted police officers and broke through windows, doors, and barricades, and those who aided, conspired with, planned, or coordinated such actions, are in a different category of dangerousness than those who cheered on the violence or entered the Capitol after others cleared the way,’”...quoting from the Munchel decision.

Not saying that Roberston should skate, just looking for consistency in charging, as AG Garland has called for.

[Kismet]

Gonna need OS, complicit armchair attorney and flak for MAGA, to rescue here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... itol-riot/

The court papers obtained by The Washington Post detail Klein’s alleged conduct throughout the siege of the Capitol, tracing his apparent movements and actions from using a police shield to try to pry a door open, to calling for reinforcements from the crowd...

Robertson was not charged with doing anything that serious or violent on Jan 6th, yet still a felony obstruction charge.

There's no reporting that Robertson confronted or assaulted police or engaged in violence.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/ex ... wn-better/
The D.C. Circuit recently remarked that ‘those who actually assaulted police officers and broke through windows, doors, and barricades, and those who aided, conspired with, planned, or coordinated such actions, are in a different category of dangerousness than those who cheered on the violence or entered the Capitol after others cleared the way,’”...quoting from the Munchel decision.

Not saying that Roberston should skate, just looking for consistency in charging, as AG Garland has called for.

The Feds offered them both a plea deal Friday - the details of the deal were not made public. They have until August 11 to accept or decline the deal. Robertson remains in custody in solitary confinement at a Federal lockup.

https://roanoke.com/news/local/crime-an ... d5546.html

https://www.wdbj7.com/2021/07/30/plea-d ... ol-attack/

This piece may shed some light on why the obstruction charge was added based upon additional FBI evidence submitted to the U.S. Attorney after the initial charges were filed.

https://wset.com/news/local/fbi-release ... s?src=link

[seacoaster]

Just for fun:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/opin ... e=Homepage

"It was, I must admit, a virtuoso performance by Sean Hannity.

Not since the sheriff in “Blazing Saddles” put a gun to his own head and took himself hostage has anyone executed such a nutty loop de loop.

Opening his show Tuesday night, Hannity gave a monologue defending the police (and lacing into the usual suspects: Hunter, Kamala, Hillary, Nancy, the summer riots, gun violence and unvaccinated illegal immigrants). “Attacks on law enforcement are never and should never be acceptable ever, not at the Capitol and not anywhere,” he declaimed.

Yet Mr. Pro Police had nary a word for the four police officers who had appeared before Congress that morning to describe going to “hell and back,” as a Washington police officer, Michael Fanone, put it, as they relived the scarring, desperate hours of Jan. 6 when they were attacked by Trump’s mob (and Hannity’s viewers).

When it came down to it, the question of whether Republican lawmakers in the House would side with Donald Trump or the police who risked their lives defending them, it wasn’t even a close call for the law-and-order party.

The G.O.P. overwhelmingly stuck with Trump, perpetuating his sick mythology about a day we all saw with our own eyes. Twenty-one House Republicans even voted against awarding congressional gold medals to the police officers who responded on the day of infamy.

They couldn’t countenance “the Pelosi sham commission,” as moderate-turned-lunatic Elise Stefanik — Liz Cheney’s Eve Harrington — told Hannity. Its only purpose, Stefanik said, was “trying to shame over 70 million Americans who were standing up for constitutional and election integrity issues.” Besides, she said, in another moment of utter fatuity, “Republicans are focused on the facts.”

The heart-rending police testimony was dismissed by most Republicans and Fox News as “political theater.” What gall by a party that claims to have the backs of men and women in blue.

Laura Ingraham even gave awards — “Best Exaggerated Performance,” “Best Political Performance” and “Best Performance in an Action Role” — to the police who recounted their terrifying battles with the mob. “They came across as political actors,” Ingraham said. “That doesn’t help anything. We want the police to be just the police.”

Even as Ingraham was describing as “actors” those cops who faced danger, Erin Smith was trying to get the death of her husband, a veteran Washington patrolman — the second officer to take his own life after the insurrection — reclassified from a suicide to a death in the line of duty.

After he was hit in the head with a metal pole during the rampage, he fell into a dark depression, his wife told The Times. On the way to his shift, he pulled his car off the George Washington Parkway and killed himself with his service weapon.

More than casting the police who told their stories as drama queens and fabulists, four House Republicans, representing the dregs of Congress, turned up at a Washington jail on Thursday to shine a light on the plight of suspects detained in the Jan. 6 insurrection. One of them, Representative Paul Gosar of Arizona, hailed them as “political prisoners.”

Since when do Republicans care more about criminals in jail than the cops who put them there? Since when do they coddle domestic terrorists?

Since Donald Trump.

A new report in The Daily Beast shows how the fish rots from the big orange head. The Beast reports that Trump has been leading his party’s efforts to recast what happened on Jan. 6 and has been belittling some police heroes, using a vulgar slur for a woman’s anatomy that we’ve famously heard him use on tape; he’s also rebranding Ashli Babbitt, a rioter and an Air Force veteran from California who was killed that day, as a martyr to his cause.

It’s more of Trump’s tough-guy posturing. Indeed, The Village People’s “Macho Man” — which Trump shimmied to at his rallies — was the insurrection’s soundtrack. How rich that Cadet Bone Spurs, who spends his days watching himself on TV and puttering around in a golf cart, belittles cops who bravely took beatings from the mob he sicced on them. It’s gobsmacking how easily Republicans swap their values for Trump’s voters.

He turned Republicans upside down like a snow globe, and suddenly the party that loved to rah-rah for family, morals and religion was in the grip of a thrice-married, grabby, foul-mouthed Tartuffe. The party that prided itself on supporting those in uniform, the F.B.I. and C.I.A. had to go along with Trump’s crooked ways and Deep-State vilification of the F.B.I. and the intelligence community.

We’re still learning the extent to which President Trump tried to strong-arm the Justice Department into helping him purloin the election. As the Times’s Katie Benner reported Friday, as late as Dec. 27, Trump called officials at Justice and, according to their notes, told them: “Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me,” assuring them that his congressional allies would help.

The story is chilling because it shows that Trump was not merely thrashing about on his throne. His plan to reverse the election was more orchestrated and sinister than we knew.

Could he actually have used the government to overthrow the government and become dictator perpetuo?"

[Peter Brown]

For a guy who supposedly lost an election 9 months ago, does anyone notice how focused media and Democrats remain on the loser? And seemingly this fixation only grows.

If things were actually going great with their own guy (hint: they’re not), they wouldn’t be spending so much precious time fixated on the guy they supposedly beat. 9 months ago. 9 months.

Interesting.

[youthathletics]

He is a cash cow for the media....which means they are nothing more than whores. They clearly did not learn the first go around.....the media was his biggest supporter/promotion tool. Either they secretly endorse him or they are just oblivious to what they are doing....again.

[Peter Brown]

He is a cash cow for the media....which means they are nothing more than whores. They clearly did not learn the first go around.....the media was his biggest supporter/promotion tool. Either they secretly endorse him or they are just oblivious to what they are doing....again.

Agree. But that’s the media. What about Democrats? Why are they similarly fixated on Trump? Does he help them raise money? Is Trump a good misdirection to keep their eyes focused on anything other than their growing crime, open borders, rampaging inflation, and so forth?

[youthathletics]

He is a cash cow for the media....which means they are nothing more than whores. They clearly did not learn the first go around.....the media was his biggest supporter/promotion tool. Either they secretly endorse him or they are just oblivious to what they are doing....again.

Agree. But that’s the media. What about Democrats? Why are they similarly fixated on Trump? Does he help them raise money? Is Trump a good misdirection to keep their eyes focused on anything other than their growing crime, open borders, rampaging inflation, and so forth?

He is the their new boogeyman. If they are not telling the minorities who they so desperately need, they can now show them that this boogeyman is real...and just look at what he is doing to you! You need us to protest you, you are not capable of doing this on your own. Meanwhile, they realize Trump and those that challenge them, like Trump types do, are really revealing their deceitful ploy to string along and pander to minorities.

Trump is the wrong guy and needs to go away....he is just too flagrant, crass, and polarizing. He lost me when he refused to to calm the fu*k the down and chose to triple down. Had he presented a bit more decorum after year 1 or even 2...he'd likely still be here.

[seacoaster]

You both already know this, but prefer your own really sad and desperate narrative. He's the undisputed leader of your party; the House minority leader would lay down in a bath of offal if the Moron told him to do so. McConnell tries desperately to pretend he doesn't exist. The so-called "Freedom Caucus" -- aggregate IQ of 78 and subzero legislative accomplishments -- is completely in thrall to him (a hit parade, including deep-thinking policy wonks like Jordan, Gohmert, Boebert, Gaetz, Roy, and Greene). If you want people to ignore him, it is up to people like you to make him irrelevant. He's not; he is the already canonized candidate for 2024. Saying blah, blah, blah Hogan/Desantis isn't enough.

I'd like to believe the narrative PB trots out: that a couple of losses in races in which Trump endorsed the eventual loser suggests diminishing influence. All I can say is we shall see. But as long as you see him grift and push around leadership, he's YOUR GUY.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... -2021-fec/

"Former president Donald Trump’s proved himself his party’s most powerful fundraiser in the first six months of the year, amassing a political treasure chest of $102 million by the end of June, according to filings made public on Saturday.

His aides said he had raised $82 million in that period, though some of the money came in the form of transfers from accounts soliciting funds last year.

The sums, which are extraordinary for an ex-president who has been booted off social media, testify to the power of Trump’s online donor base and the deep financial reservoir available to him if he chooses to seek the White House a third time. They also reveal how the former president has reaped financial rewards while claiming the election was stolen from him.

Since leaving office, Trump has continued to vigorously solicit donations from supporters, based mostly on false claims of voter fraud in the 2020 election. His reported haul eclipsed that of his party’s House and Senate campaign arms, and was outpaced only slightly by the Republican National Committee, which raised $84 million in the first half of the year."

[MDlaxfan76]

The above is obvious.

I'd like to believe that youth understands better, or could, but Petey's simply trolling.
(That said, youth, you don't think "minorities" can protest for themselves? Huh?)

Right wing media is pretending that Trump is still the President. The alt-President.

41 million Americans apparently actually believe that Trump won and the extension of that is the belief that the violence of Jan 6 was justified and "patriotic"...and by extension, only issue was that it failed...and that more violence is justified...

Nothing to worry about...

[seacoaster]

The above is obvious.

I'd like to believe that youth understands better, or could, but Petey's simply trolling.

Right wing media is pretending that Trump is still the President. The alt-President.

41 million Americans apparently actually believe that Trump won and the extension of that is the belief that the violence of Jan 6 was justified and "patriotic"...and by extension, only issue was that it failed...and that more violence is justified...

Nothing to worry about...

And we, and the media, should just ignore him. Sure.

[youthathletics]

The discussion was about why democrats / media keep him in "their" news cycle, which is what we were commenting on. Not sure I could be any clearer that I am done with him.

How about you provide some insight on why you believe the d party and 90% of the news media that impeached the man 2x, still wants to discuss him? Marketing 101....any press is good press; “Advertising is what you pay for, publicity is what you pray for,” says the popular business proverb. And it’s true! Publicity can be positively priceless.

As I mentioned, your side and the media is keeping this man relevant. In an era where where everything is us vs them, the more you shi*t on the other party, the more they fight back. Change the narrative. My goodness, the man is not even allowed on social media and yet, the left is doing his bidding for him.....AGAIN!

[seacoaster]

The discussion was about why democrats / media keep him in "their" news cycle, which is what we were commenting on. Not sure I could be any clearer that I am done with him.

How about you provide some insight on why you believe the d party and 90% of the news media that impeached the man 2x, still wants to discuss him? Marketing 101....any press is good press; “Advertising is what you pay for, publicity is what you pray for,” says the popular business proverb. And it’s true! Publicity can be positively priceless.

As I mentioned, your side and the media is keeping this man relevant. In an era where where everything is us vs them, the more you shi*t on the other party, the more they fight back. Change the narrative. My goodness, the man is not even allowed on social media and yet, the left is doing his bidding for him.....AGAIN!

So, if you are "done with him," does this mean that you won't vote for a candidate who supports the Big Lie, or Trump? There's "done," and then there's really done.

And, almost needless to say, b*llshit on me and the media keeping this Moron relevant: $100,000,000 makes you relevant when the RNC as an institution is just barely keeping pace.

[Peter Brown]

The discussion was about why democrats / media keep him in "their" news cycle, which is what we were commenting on. Not sure I could be any clearer that I am done with him.

How about you provide some insight on why you believe the d party and 90% of the news media that impeached the man 2x, still wants to discuss him? Marketing 101....any press is good press; “Advertising is what you pay for, publicity is what you pray for,” says the popular business proverb. And it’s true! Publicity can be positively priceless.

As I mentioned, your side and the media is keeping this man relevant. In an era where where everything is us vs them, the more you shi*t on the other party, the more they fight back. Change the narrative. My goodness, the man is not even allowed on social media and yet, the left is doing his bidding for him.....AGAIN!

So, if you are "done with him," does this mean that you won't vote for a candidate who supports the Big Lie, or Trump? There's "done," and then there's really done.

And, almost needless to say, b*llshit on me and the media keeping this Moron relevant: $100,000,000 makes you relevant when the RNC as an institution is just barely keeping pace.

I don’t think we are claiming he’s not relevant, rather we are pointing out how bizarrely focused you are on the guy. He doesn’t even have social media! If Trump had his Twitter account, I’m not sure you could breathe; your entire day would be spent parsing the guys outrageous statements.

Im no fan of Kamala, and I fully expect every decision she makes to be against my and America’s best interests, but honestly, I think far more about the lobster I had last night than I ever will about anything Kamala has to say.

Maybe it’s Trump’s coarse nature or his awful character that throws you. I empathize tbh. But I’d say on the whole, the guy was acceptable as a President, not top 10 that’s for sure, but not bottom 10 either.

As far as the Republican representatives’ IQ, I’m not sure you’ve checked in with Maxine Waters? IQ isn’t my standard fir these folks. Patriotism and love of America are. By any measure, even the dumbest Republican representative at least evidences an actual love of America. I’m not sold you can say that about some Democratic representatives.

As far as voting for Trump again, I don’t want to see him run, but if he’s running against a Democrat which we have to assume is the case, of course I’d vote for him. I MUCH prefer Ron Desantis.

[MDlaxfan76]

The discussion was about why democrats / media keep him in "their" news cycle, which is what we were commenting on. Not sure I could be any clearer that I am done with him.

How about you provide some insight on why you believe the d party and 90% of the news media that impeached the man 2x, still wants to discuss him? Marketing 101....any press is good press; “Advertising is what you pay for, publicity is what you pray for,” says the popular business proverb. And it’s true! Publicity can be positively priceless.

As I mentioned, your side and the media is keeping this man relevant. In an era where where everything is us vs them, the more you shi*t on the other party, the more they fight back. Change the narrative. My goodness, the man is not even allowed on social media and yet, the left is doing his bidding for him.....AGAIN!

youth, is Fox "done with him"?
OAN, NewsMax?
Seems to me we can critique mainstream and left leaning media when right wing media fully and thoroughly repudiates Trump, and he's deemed "irrelevant" by them going forward.

Same re Dems...
Heck, the RNC, McCarthy, the GOP caucus...they're doubling down on Trump.

McConnell's trying to not have to directly repudiate him...providing cover.

But back to the thread topic, what do 41 million Americans think happened in the election? Who won? Oh yeah, that guy you're "done with". Was Jan 6 just a tourist visit? Or a First Amendment protest? Or was it a violent insurrection fomented by the then sitting POTUS (oh yeah, that guy).

As a Republican, I sure as heck wish the GOP was fully done with him, but it's not.

As to Petey's "love America"...no, a whole bunch of R's clearly don't love America, or at least don't love an America that actualizes its democratic ideals. Starting with DJT. And, like Petey, they actually despise the majority of fellow Americans.

[Peter Brown]

The discussion was about why democrats / media keep him in "their" news cycle, which is what we were commenting on. Not sure I could be any clearer that I am done with him.

How about you provide some insight on why you believe the d party and 90% of the news media that impeached the man 2x, still wants to discuss him? Marketing 101....any press is good press; “Advertising is what you pay for, publicity is what you pray for,” says the popular business proverb. And it’s true! Publicity can be positively priceless.

As I mentioned, your side and the media is keeping this man relevant. In an era where where everything is us vs them, the more you shi*t on the other party, the more they fight back. Change the narrative. My goodness, the man is not even allowed on social media and yet, the left is doing his bidding for him.....AGAIN!

youth, is Fox "done with him"?
OAN, NewsMax?
Seems to me we can critique mainstream and left leaning media when right wing media fully and thoroughly repudiates Trump, and he's deemed "irrelevant" by them going forward.

Same re Dems...
Heck, the RNC, McCarthy, the GOP caucus...they're doubling down on Trump.

McConnell's trying to not have to directly repudiate him...providing cover.

But back to the thread topic, what do 41 million Americans think happened in the election? Who won? Oh yeah, that guy you're "done with". Was Jan 6 just a tourist visit? Or a First Amendment protest? Or was it a violent insurrection fomented by the then sitting POTUS (oh yeah, that guy).

As a Republican, I sure as heck wish the GOP was fully done with him, but it's not.

Here’s the thing about Trump that very few of his opponents ever get, and I suspect their frustration is what leads them to boil with rage at the guy. He never actually ever does what you think he’s done to commit an actual crime, but his words (no emails....) would lead one to believe he’s looking for you to do what you think he wants (and clearly some of his confidants did just that, which is why they were indicted, but not him). You’ll just never convict the guy on what you think he’s done, because he never has in fact done anything.

Do I think his words led to 1-6? Yup. I do. But you’re never going to convict him based on easily misinterpreted words. Any lawyer will get him out of that one.

So you’re left boiling in anger. Hence your focus.

I don’t think it’s any Republican or right leaning media persons responsibility to get you to not focus on him. That’s on you.