January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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youthathletics
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.
Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....
I really enjoy Malbec with meat dishes, never had Carmenere....will give it a try. I typically will switch to red wine in the winter months. I say go with the Guinness....go for the Irish Car Bomb for the trifecta.

Have a great weekend fellas!
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
FannOLax
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by FannOLax »

Not a huge fan of St Pauli Girl; prefer Paulaner, but my go-to German is Spaten (Spaten Munchen). Might have try some of the others you mention.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:42 pm Not a huge fan of St Pauli Girl; prefer Paulaner, but my go-to German is Spaten (Spaten Munchen). Might have try some of the others you mention.
My college roommate like St. Pauli girl if he couldn’t get Moosehead or Molson from the Beer Dock! Spaten is acceptable also!
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youthathletics
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:42 pm Not a huge fan of St Pauli Girl; prefer Paulaner, but my go-to German is Spaten (Spaten Munchen). Might have try some of the others you mention.
Great choice. When I was primarily drinking beer, I would buy a few cases of Spaten Oktoberfest each Fall for the coming dark ages of winter.

For more on the story...there is this thread: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=409
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pmThat said, he did enter the grounds and IMO is therefore guilty of criminal trespass.
Is he ? IF by the time he entered the grounds --
-- the police had retreated, the barriers carried away, no warning signs visible, & he was just moving with a large crowd ?

That's probably why not everyone in the crowd who set foot on the Capitol grounds is being charged.
Big difference, IMO, between those who entered the building and those outside...there were no open, undamaged doors...all were broken, windows next to them broken. There could be zero doubt that it was violently breached and going in was very illegal. Of course, if there's evidence of assault, that takes it up much higher still.

Which doesn't mean that someone couldn't be just as guilty outside if in any way involved in the violence. It's all criminal trespass, but the ratchet up to 'violent entry and disorderly conduct' is for those where that applies. Simply being in the building probably gets you to that level.

I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.

Back to the intent level, absolutely the charging would likely be different for those remorseful and cooperative (as well as non violent) versus those definitely not remorseful. These guys were the opposite of remorseful...still are.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two- ... us-capitol

And now it's super clear that Robertson is very dangerous. This is sort of guy I'd charge with sedition. Absolutely should know better, but was definitely intent on overthrow of election results and took direct action to that end.

Frankly, I think a whole lot of them are guilty of sedition, though I think it's likely to be a charge reserved for only the very most organized, pre-planning, etc and a heck of a lot of evidence of such intent. Prosecutors tend to gravitate to slam dunk charges first, only adding more when they gather more evidence.

And I continue to think that Trump, Trump Jr, Giuliani, Flynn, Powell and host of Representatives and Senators are the biggest perps of all.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by ardilla secreta »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm
FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.
Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....
Moosehead or Guinness!! Why not add St. Pauli Girl!? You can do better: Jever, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner, Rothaus Pils, Paulaner are all acceptable.
Moosehead went out in the 80’s. TLD has the right choices.

Argentinian Malbec and Chilean Carmenere is what you drink when on a budget or don’t know better.

There is excellent Malbec, but it’s grown in the Loire Valley near Angers and known as Côt. It’s pale in color, profile of red fruits and wet earth and delightfully quaffable.

https://louisdressner.com/wines?wine=VD ... ont%C3%A9s
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

ardilla secreta wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:25 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm
FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.
Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....
Moosehead or Guinness!! Why not add St. Pauli Girl!? You can do better: Jever, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner, Rothaus Pils, Paulaner are all acceptable.
Moosehead went out in the 80’s. TLD has the right choices.

Argentinian Malbec and Chilean Carmenere is what you drink when on a budget or don’t know better.

There is excellent Malbec, but it’s grown in the Loire Valley near Angers and known as Côt. It’s pale in color, profile of red fruits and wet earth and delightfully quaffable.

https://louisdressner.com/wines?wine=VD ... ont%C3%A9s
:lol 2 buck chuck beat out 2300 other wines in 2004 and earned triple gold in 2013.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Great info and discussion...love to see you guys link this to the thread topic...maybe, what do we think the seditionists' preferences are? and differences between those who stayed outside versa those who went in? Those who chanted hang Mike Pence? Might the Oath Keepers have some favorites? ;)
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

My guess...they were all drinking Zima.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:17 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pmThat said, he did enter the grounds and IMO is therefore guilty of criminal trespass.
Is he ? IF by the time he entered the grounds --
-- the police had retreated, the barriers carried away, no warning signs visible, & he was just moving with a large crowd ?

That's probably why not everyone in the crowd who set foot on the Capitol grounds is being charged.
Big difference, IMO, between those who entered the building and those outside...there were no open, undamaged doors...all were broken, windows next to them broken. There could be zero doubt that it was violently breached and going in was very illegal. Of course, if there's evidence of assault, that takes it up much higher still.

Which doesn't mean that someone couldn't be just as guilty outside if in any way involved in the violence. It's all criminal trespass, but the ratchet up to 'violent entry and disorderly conduct' is for those where that applies. Simply being in the building probably gets you to that level.

I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.

Back to the intent level, absolutely the charging would likely be different for those remorseful and cooperative (as well as non violent) versus those definitely not remorseful. These guys were the opposite of remorseful...still are.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two- ... us-capitol

And now it's super clear that Robertson is very dangerous. This is sort of guy I'd charge with sedition. Absolutely should know better, but was definitely intent on overthrow of election results and took direct action to that end.

Frankly, I think a whole lot of them are guilty of sedition, though I think it's likely to be a charge reserved for only the very most organized, pre-planning, etc and a heck of a lot of evidence of such intent. Prosecutors tend to gravitate to slam dunk charges first, only adding more when they gather more evidence.

And I continue to think that Trump, Trump Jr, Giuliani, Flynn, Powell and host of Representatives and Senators are the biggest perps of all.
Whatever. That post was specifically about your brother-in-law, not anyone who entered the Capitol.
Did he know anything unlawful was underway until he got close enough to see damage, well after setting foot on Capitol grounds.

Re. charges for Robertson vs MAGAGranny & FLman, we definitely need felony thought crime laws.
CU88
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by CU88 »

ardilla secreta wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:25 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm
FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.
Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....
Moosehead or Guinness!! Why not add St. Pauli Girl!? You can do better: Jever, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner, Rothaus Pils, Paulaner are all acceptable.
Moosehead went out in the 80’s. TLD has the right choices.

Argentinian Malbec and Chilean Carmenere is what you drink when on a budget or don’t know better.

There is excellent Malbec, but it’s grown in the Loire Valley near Angers and known as Côt. It’s pale in color, profile of red fruits and wet earth and delightfully quaffable.

https://louisdressner.com/wines?wine=VD ... ont%C3%A9s
I have added this to my list!
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:54 pm My guess...they were all drinking Zima.
Mad Dog 2020 or Wild Irish Rose is my guess. The beverage of choice for people who have hit rock bottom.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:57 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:17 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pmThat said, he did enter the grounds and IMO is therefore guilty of criminal trespass.
Is he ? IF by the time he entered the grounds --
-- the police had retreated, the barriers carried away, no warning signs visible, & he was just moving with a large crowd ?

That's probably why not everyone in the crowd who set foot on the Capitol grounds is being charged.
Big difference, IMO, between those who entered the building and those outside...there were no open, undamaged doors...all were broken, windows next to them broken. There could be zero doubt that it was violently breached and going in was very illegal. Of course, if there's evidence of assault, that takes it up much higher still.

Which doesn't mean that someone couldn't be just as guilty outside if in any way involved in the violence. It's all criminal trespass, but the ratchet up to 'violent entry and disorderly conduct' is for those where that applies. Simply being in the building probably gets you to that level.

I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.

Back to the intent level, absolutely the charging would likely be different for those remorseful and cooperative (as well as non violent) versus those definitely not remorseful. These guys were the opposite of remorseful...still are.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two- ... us-capitol

And now it's super clear that Robertson is very dangerous. This is sort of guy I'd charge with sedition. Absolutely should know better, but was definitely intent on overthrow of election results and took direct action to that end.

Frankly, I think a whole lot of them are guilty of sedition, though I think it's likely to be a charge reserved for only the very most organized, pre-planning, etc and a heck of a lot of evidence of such intent. Prosecutors tend to gravitate to slam dunk charges first, only adding more when they gather more evidence.

And I continue to think that Trump, Trump Jr, Giuliani, Flynn, Powell and host of Representatives and Senators are the biggest perps of all.
Whatever. That post was specifically about your brother-in-law, not anyone who entered the Capitol.
Did he know anything unlawful was underway until he got close enough to see damage, well after setting foot on Capitol grounds.

Re. charges for Robertson vs MAGAGranny & FLman, we definitely need felony thought crime laws.
So much nonsense from you, Salty.
"thought crime" :roll:
Remorse and cooperation with the police is very appropriately taken into account by prosecution in their discretion. So, is demonstrated intent.

I asked my brother-in-law whether he noticed that the barriers outside the grounds were ripped apart, damaged etc...he said he didn't see them at all where he was walking. Color me skeptical but that's what he says. He also says he wasn't aware that even being on the grounds was illegal, something my son reacted to immediately when he heard his uncle had been on the steps. However, my son had worked on the Hill right out of college, so knew the protocols, as did I having visited there, whereas I'm not sure whether my brother-in-law had ever actually visited the Capitol in many decades, though he enters a very secure gov't facility most work days and has been doing so in such facilities for decades.

But there's no way that anyone scaling walls didn't know what they were doing was illegal, no way anyone going in the building through broken doors, with broken windows, didn't know that they'd been violently breached.

Sure, the mob pushing forward behind those most violent may not have directly witnessed the violence as it happened...but anyone going in that building knew they were going into a violently breached gov't facility and their intent in doing so, eg. "Stop the Steal", is directly relevant to the degree of their crime.

So, if someone went in but then left quickly...and was remorseful and cooperative, that's going to be treated, appropriately IMO and apparently prosecutors' and judges' view, less severely than someone who was uncooperative and clearly not remorseful. The more evidence of ill intent, the tougher the prosecution will be, should be.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by seacoaster »

Gonna need OS, complicit armchair attorney and flak for MAGA, to rescue here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... itol-riot/

"A political appointee of President Donald Trump has been arrested on charges that he stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and assaulted an officer with a weapon, marking the first arrest of a Trump administration official in connection with the insurrection.

Federico Guillermo Klein, a former State Department official, made an initial appearance by teleconference on Friday before U.S. Magistrate Zia M. Faruqui in Washington, where prosecutors said they would seek to jail him pending trial at a hearing next Wednesday.

The court papers obtained by The Washington Post detail Klein’s alleged conduct throughout the siege of the Capitol, tracing his apparent movements and actions from using a police shield to try to pry a door open, to calling for reinforcements from the crowd, to losing his red “Make America Great Again” baseball cap, looking for it amid the chaos, and then grabbing another red hat on the ground that turned out to be the wrong one.

Klein’s arrest is the most direct link yet between the Trump administration and the rioters, despite attempts by some conservatives to dissociate the insurrection from the former president. Many of the 300-plus people who have been charged in connection with the insurrection have described themselves as Trump supporters, while some have ties to extremist groups like the Proud Boys, which Canada has designated a terrorist group, and the Oath Keepers.

Klein, who is also a former Trump campaign employee, did not respond to a request for comment. A State Department spokesman said Klein served as a political appointee in the department from 2017 until his resignation in January. “This is being investigated by FBI, and they are the appropriate agency to answer questions specific to the charges,” the spokesman said.

Klein had a top-secret security clearance that was renewed in 2019, the FBI said. A LinkedIn profile the FBI identified as Klein’s also lists a top-secret security clearance and shows that Klein has been politically active in the Republican Party since at least 2008, when he began volunteering for political campaigns. Before joining the State Department in 2017, Klein worked for the Trump campaign, which paid him a $15,000 salary.

Klein was still employed at the State Department as a staff assistant on Jan. 6 when he joined a mob in a tunnel leading into the U.S. Capitol, the FBI said. Then he allegedly “physically and verbally engaged with the officers holding the line” at the building’s entrance, according to the complaint. After ignoring officers’ orders to move back, he assaulted officers with a riot shield that had been stolen from police, the complaint said, and then used the shield to wedge open a door into the Capitol.

At one point, Klein was caught on video shouting for more insurrectionists to come to the front lines, where officers were struggling to hold back the mob.

“We need fresh people, need fresh people,” he said, according to the complaint.

According to a financial disclosure form filed by Klein, he was appointed as a staff assistant in the State Department on Jan. 22, 2017, days after Trump was sworn in as president. He worked as a special assistant in the Office of Brazilian and Southern Cone Affairs, where he was paid $66,510, according to a ProPublica database of Trump appointees and the criminal complaint.

After the insurrection, Klein continued working in the State Department until Jan. 19, when he resigned the day before President Biden’s inauguration, per the complaint.

Prosecutors said they were seeking to jail him pending trial on grounds that he is charged with assaulting an officer. Assistant Federal Defender Shelli Peterson said Klein was retaining private counsel who would oppose that request, arguing that Klein’s charges do not amount to a crime of violence barring his release under appropriate conditions to ensure public safety.

Klein did not enter a plea. However, he asked the judge at the end of the brief hearing, “I wonder if there’s a place where I can stay in detention where I don’t have cockroaches crawling over me while I attempt to sleep....I mean, I really haven’t slept all that much, your honor. It would be nice if I could sleep in a place where there were not cockroaches everywhere.”

Faruqui and Peterson told Klein that he would be transferred to D.C. jail shortly and that they would make sure to address his concerns if there were unsafe or dirty conditions. Klein said, “very well I appreciate that.”

The Trump appointee faces several felony charges for his alleged role in the riot, including knowingly engaging in any act of physical violence against any person or property in any restricted building or grounds.

Klein’s mother, Cecilia Klein, told Politico that her son had admitted to being in D.C. on Jan. 6 but said he did not specify whether he had entered the Capitol building.

“Fred’s politics burn a little hot,” she told Politico, which first reported the arrest, “but I’ve never known him to violate the law.”
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

seacoaster wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:12 am Gonna need OS, complicit armchair attorney and flak for MAGA, to rescue here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... itol-riot/

"A political appointee of President Donald Trump has been arrested on charges that he stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and assaulted an officer with a weapon, marking the first arrest of a Trump administration official in connection with the insurrection.

Federico Guillermo Klein, a former State Department official, made an initial appearance by teleconference on Friday before U.S. Magistrate Zia M. Faruqui in Washington, where prosecutors said they would seek to jail him pending trial at a hearing next Wednesday.

The court papers obtained by The Washington Post detail Klein’s alleged conduct throughout the siege of the Capitol, tracing his apparent movements and actions from using a police shield to try to pry a door open, to calling for reinforcements from the crowd, to losing his red “Make America Great Again” baseball cap, looking for it amid the chaos, and then grabbing another red hat on the ground that turned out to be the wrong one.

Klein’s arrest is the most direct link yet between the Trump administration and the rioters, despite attempts by some conservatives to dissociate the insurrection from the former president. Many of the 300-plus people who have been charged in connection with the insurrection have described themselves as Trump supporters, while some have ties to extremist groups like the Proud Boys, which Canada has designated a terrorist group, and the Oath Keepers.

Klein, who is also a former Trump campaign employee, did not respond to a request for comment. A State Department spokesman said Klein served as a political appointee in the department from 2017 until his resignation in January. “This is being investigated by FBI, and they are the appropriate agency to answer questions specific to the charges,” the spokesman said.

Klein had a top-secret security clearance that was renewed in 2019, the FBI said. A LinkedIn profile the FBI identified as Klein’s also lists a top-secret security clearance and shows that Klein has been politically active in the Republican Party since at least 2008, when he began volunteering for political campaigns. Before joining the State Department in 2017, Klein worked for the Trump campaign, which paid him a $15,000 salary.

Klein was still employed at the State Department as a staff assistant on Jan. 6 when he joined a mob in a tunnel leading into the U.S. Capitol, the FBI said. Then he allegedly “physically and verbally engaged with the officers holding the line” at the building’s entrance, according to the complaint. After ignoring officers’ orders to move back, he assaulted officers with a riot shield that had been stolen from police, the complaint said, and then used the shield to wedge open a door into the Capitol.

At one point, Klein was caught on video shouting for more insurrectionists to come to the front lines, where officers were struggling to hold back the mob.

“We need fresh people, need fresh people,” he said, according to the complaint.

According to a financial disclosure form filed by Klein, he was appointed as a staff assistant in the State Department on Jan. 22, 2017, days after Trump was sworn in as president. He worked as a special assistant in the Office of Brazilian and Southern Cone Affairs, where he was paid $66,510, according to a ProPublica database of Trump appointees and the criminal complaint.

After the insurrection, Klein continued working in the State Department until Jan. 19, when he resigned the day before President Biden’s inauguration, per the complaint.

Prosecutors said they were seeking to jail him pending trial on grounds that he is charged with assaulting an officer. Assistant Federal Defender Shelli Peterson said Klein was retaining private counsel who would oppose that request, arguing that Klein’s charges do not amount to a crime of violence barring his release under appropriate conditions to ensure public safety.

Klein did not enter a plea. However, he asked the judge at the end of the brief hearing, “I wonder if there’s a place where I can stay in detention where I don’t have cockroaches crawling over me while I attempt to sleep....I mean, I really haven’t slept all that much, your honor. It would be nice if I could sleep in a place where there were not cockroaches everywhere.”

Faruqui and Peterson told Klein that he would be transferred to D.C. jail shortly and that they would make sure to address his concerns if there were unsafe or dirty conditions. Klein said, “very well I appreciate that.”

The Trump appointee faces several felony charges for his alleged role in the riot, including knowingly engaging in any act of physical violence against any person or property in any restricted building or grounds.

Klein’s mother, Cecilia Klein, told Politico that her son had admitted to being in D.C. on Jan. 6 but said he did not specify whether he had entered the Capitol building.

“Fred’s politics burn a little hot,” she told Politico, which first reported the arrest, “but I’ve never known him to violate the law.”
I am waiting for the cute nickname….it’s ironic.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:02 am
seacoaster wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:12 am Gonna need OS, complicit armchair attorney and flak for MAGA, to rescue here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... itol-riot/

"A political appointee of President Donald Trump has been arrested on charges that he stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and assaulted an officer with a weapon, marking the first arrest of a Trump administration official in connection with the insurrection.

Federico Guillermo Klein, a former State Department official, made an initial appearance by teleconference on Friday before U.S. Magistrate Zia M. Faruqui in Washington, where prosecutors said they would seek to jail him pending trial at a hearing next Wednesday.

The court papers obtained by The Washington Post detail Klein’s alleged conduct throughout the siege of the Capitol, tracing his apparent movements and actions from using a police shield to try to pry a door open, to calling for reinforcements from the crowd, to losing his red “Make America Great Again” baseball cap, looking for it amid the chaos, and then grabbing another red hat on the ground that turned out to be the wrong one.

Klein’s arrest is the most direct link yet between the Trump administration and the rioters, despite attempts by some conservatives to dissociate the insurrection from the former president. Many of the 300-plus people who have been charged in connection with the insurrection have described themselves as Trump supporters, while some have ties to extremist groups like the Proud Boys, which Canada has designated a terrorist group, and the Oath Keepers.

Klein, who is also a former Trump campaign employee, did not respond to a request for comment. A State Department spokesman said Klein served as a political appointee in the department from 2017 until his resignation in January. “This is being investigated by FBI, and they are the appropriate agency to answer questions specific to the charges,” the spokesman said.

Klein had a top-secret security clearance that was renewed in 2019, the FBI said. A LinkedIn profile the FBI identified as Klein’s also lists a top-secret security clearance and shows that Klein has been politically active in the Republican Party since at least 2008, when he began volunteering for political campaigns. Before joining the State Department in 2017, Klein worked for the Trump campaign, which paid him a $15,000 salary.

Klein was still employed at the State Department as a staff assistant on Jan. 6 when he joined a mob in a tunnel leading into the U.S. Capitol, the FBI said. Then he allegedly “physically and verbally engaged with the officers holding the line” at the building’s entrance, according to the complaint. After ignoring officers’ orders to move back, he assaulted officers with a riot shield that had been stolen from police, the complaint said, and then used the shield to wedge open a door into the Capitol.

At one point, Klein was caught on video shouting for more insurrectionists to come to the front lines, where officers were struggling to hold back the mob.

“We need fresh people, need fresh people,” he said, according to the complaint.

According to a financial disclosure form filed by Klein, he was appointed as a staff assistant in the State Department on Jan. 22, 2017, days after Trump was sworn in as president. He worked as a special assistant in the Office of Brazilian and Southern Cone Affairs, where he was paid $66,510, according to a ProPublica database of Trump appointees and the criminal complaint.

After the insurrection, Klein continued working in the State Department until Jan. 19, when he resigned the day before President Biden’s inauguration, per the complaint.

Prosecutors said they were seeking to jail him pending trial on grounds that he is charged with assaulting an officer. Assistant Federal Defender Shelli Peterson said Klein was retaining private counsel who would oppose that request, arguing that Klein’s charges do not amount to a crime of violence barring his release under appropriate conditions to ensure public safety.

Klein did not enter a plea. However, he asked the judge at the end of the brief hearing, “I wonder if there’s a place where I can stay in detention where I don’t have cockroaches crawling over me while I attempt to sleep....I mean, I really haven’t slept all that much, your honor. It would be nice if I could sleep in a place where there were not cockroaches everywhere.”

Faruqui and Peterson told Klein that he would be transferred to D.C. jail shortly and that they would make sure to address his concerns if there were unsafe or dirty conditions. Klein said, “very well I appreciate that.”

The Trump appointee faces several felony charges for his alleged role in the riot, including knowingly engaging in any act of physical violence against any person or property in any restricted building or grounds.

Klein’s mother, Cecilia Klein, told Politico that her son had admitted to being in D.C. on Jan. 6 but said he did not specify whether he had entered the Capitol building.

“Fred’s politics burn a little hot,” she told Politico, which first reported the arrest, “but I’ve never known him to violate the law.”
I am waiting for the cute nickname….it’s ironic.
Momma's Boy? "Cockroach"?
Should do serious time.
seacoaster
Posts: 8866
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by seacoaster »

Such a disgrace:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/p ... &smtyp=cur

“This past week, amid the emotional testimony of police officers at the first hearing of a House select committee, Republicans completed their journey through the looking-glass, spinning a new counternarrative of that deadly day. No longer content to absolve Mr. Trump, they concocted a version of events in which those accused of rioting were patriotic political prisoners and Speaker Nancy Pelosi was to blame for the violence.

Their new claims, some voiced from the highest levels of House Republican leadership, amount to a disinformation campaign being promulgated from the steps of the Capitol, aimed at giving cover to their party and intensifying the threats to political accountability.

This rendering of events — together with new evidence that Mr. Trump had counted on allies in Congress to help him use a baseless allegation of corruption to overturn the election — pointed to what some democracy experts see as a dangerous new sign in American politics: Even with Mr. Trump gone from the White House, many Republicans have little intention of abandoning the prevarication that was a hallmark of his presidency.

Rather, as the country struggles with the consequences of Mr. Trump’s assault on the legitimacy of the nation’s elections, leaders of his party — who, unlike the former president, have not lost their political or rhetorical platforms — are signaling their willingness to continue, look past or even expand his assault on the facts for political gain.

The phenomenon is not uniquely American.

“This is happening all over the place — it is so much linked to the democratic backsliding and rising of authoritarian movements,” said Laura Thornton, the director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy at the German Marshall Fund of the United States. “It’s about the same sort of post-truth world. You can just repeat a lie over and over and, because there’s so little trust, people will believe it.”

Behind the Republican embrace of disinformation is a calculus of both ambition and self-preservation. With members of the select committee hinting that they could subpoena Trump aides, allies on Capitol Hill and perhaps Mr. Trump himself, the counterfactual counterattack could pre-emptively undercut an investigation of the riot.

As videos shown during the hearing gave harrowing new reminders of the day’s violence, leading House Republicans claimed that Ms. Pelosi — a target of the mob — had been warned about the violence in advance but failed to prevent it.
From his private club in New Jersey, Mr. Trump suggested that Ms. Pelosi should “investigate herself,” yet again falsely insinuating that antifa and Black Lives Matter — not his followers — caused the destruction on Jan. 6 and that a democratically decided election had been stolen from him.

All the while, in the Senate, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the top Republican, who once led his party in condemning both the riot and Mr. Trump’s role in it, made no visible attempt to stop the flood of fabrications, telling reporters he had not watched the hearing and had little new to say about the most violent attack on the Capitol since the War of 1812.

House Republicans’ desire to bury the attack on their own workplace has created a dysfunctional governing atmosphere. Ms. Pelosi has increasingly treated them as a pariah party, unworthy of collaboration or trust, and has expressed deep disdain for Representative Kevin McCarthy, the minority leader, whom she called a “moron” this past week.

“Anytime you mention his name, you’re not getting an answer from me,” she told reporters. “Don’t waste my time.”

Almost as soon as the police retook control on Jan. 6, hard-core defenders of Mr. Trump in Congress began recasting the gruesome scenes of violence that left five people dead.

Mr. McCarthy, the California Republican, responded differently at first: He angrily demanded that Mr. Trump stop the rioters, according to an account he gave fellow Republicans at the time. A week later, as the House moved to impeach Mr. Trump, Mr. McCarthy said that “the president bears responsibility” for the “attack on Congress by mob rioters” and called for a fact-finding commission.

But in the months since, that early resolve has given way to an out-and-out intent to bury the attack. Mr. McCarthy, who is trying to win back the majority in 2022, moved quickly to patch things up with Mr. Trump, gave latitude to far-right members of his caucus and worked furiously to block the creation of an independent 9/11-style commission.

This past week, just before the officers began to deliver anguished testimony about the brutality they had endured, Mr. McCarthy repeatedly laid blame not with Mr. Trump, the rioters or those who had fueled doubts about the election outcome, but with Ms. Pelosi, one of the invading mob’s chief targets.

“If there is a responsibility for this Capitol, on this side, it rests with the speaker,” Mr. McCarthy said.

Representative Elise Stefanik of New York, the recently selected House conference chairwoman, went even further, saying Ms. Pelosi “bears responsibility” as speaker “for the tragedy that occurred on Jan. 6” and deriding her as “an authoritarian who has broken the people’s house.”

Ms. Pelosi is not responsible for the security of Congress; that job falls to the Capitol Police, a force that the speaker only indirectly influences. Republicans have made no similar attempt to blame Mr. McConnell, who shared control of the Capitol at the time.

Outside the Justice Department, meanwhile, a group of conservative lawmakers gathered to accuse prosecutors of mistreating the more than 500 people accused in the Jan. 6 riot.
Encouraged by Mr. Trump, they also echoed far-right portrayals of Ashli Babbitt, a rioter who was shot trying to break into the House chamber, as a patriotic martyr whose killing by the police was premeditated.

As if to show how anti-democratic episodes are ping-ponging around the globe, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in June seized on Ms. Babbitt’s killing — calling it an “assassination” — to deflect questions about his own country’s jailing of political prisoners.

Some senior Republicans insist that warnings of a whitewash are overwrought.

“I don’t think anybody’s going to be successful erasing what happened,” said Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas. “Everybody saw it with their own eyes and the nation saw it on television.”

For Mr. Cornyn and other lawmakers, continuing to talk about the attack is clearly an electoral loser at a time when they are trying to retake majorities in Congress and avoid Mr. Trump’s ire.

Most Republican lawmakers instead simply try to say nothing at all, declining even to recount the day’s events, let alone rebuke members of their party for spreading falsehoods or muddying the waters.

Asked how he would describe the riot, in which a hostile crowd demanded the hanging of Vice President Mike Pence, his brother, Representative Greg Pence of Indiana, responded curtly, “I don’t describe it.”
Yet the silence of party stalwarts, including nearly all of the House Republicans who voted to impeach Mr. Trump for his role in the attack and the Republican senators who voted to convict him, has created an information void that hard-right allies of Mr. Trump have readily filled. And they have found receptive audiences in a media environment replete with echo chambers and amplifying algorithms.

In a July poll by CBS News, narrow majorities of Trump voters said they would describe the attack as an example of “patriotism” or “defending freedom.”

That silence follows a familiar pattern: Rather than refute false allegations about a stolen election and rampant voter fraud, many leading Republicans have simply tolerated extremist misinformation.

Perhaps no one’s silence has been more significant than that of Mr. McConnell, who criticized Mr. Trump and his party in the immediate aftermath of the attack, denouncing it as a “failed insurrection” fueled by the former president’s lies.

Since Mr. Trump’s impeachment acquittal by the Senate in February, when Mr. McConnell declared him “practically and morally responsible,” the minority leader has all but refused to discuss Jan. 6.

The quiet acquiescence of party leaders has effectively left Representatives Liz Cheney of Wyoming and Adam Kinzinger of Illinois as the only two Republicans still willing to speak out against a majority of their party.
“Clearly there were security failings at the Capitol, but there was a mob that tried to prevent us from carrying out our constitutional duty,” Ms. Cheney said in an interview. “It’s very hard for me to understand why any member of Congress of either party would want to whitewash that.”

Ms. Cheney has already paid a price: Republicans ousted her this spring from their No. 3 leadership position, replacing her with Ms. Stefanik.

Now, House hard-liners want to expel her and Mr. Kinzinger from the Republican conference altogether, portraying them as “snitches” and “spies” in league with Democrats.

The message is clear: Adherence to facts cannot overcome adherence to the party line.“
PizzaSnake
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:17 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:23 pmThat said, he did enter the grounds and IMO is therefore guilty of criminal trespass.
Is he ? IF by the time he entered the grounds --
-- the police had retreated, the barriers carried away, no warning signs visible, & he was just moving with a large crowd ?

That's probably why not everyone in the crowd who set foot on the Capitol grounds is being charged.
Big difference, IMO, between those who entered the building and those outside...there were no open, undamaged doors...all were broken, windows next to them broken. There could be zero doubt that it was violently breached and going in was very illegal. Of course, if there's evidence of assault, that takes it up much higher still.

Which doesn't mean that someone couldn't be just as guilty outside if in any way involved in the violence. It's all criminal trespass, but the ratchet up to 'violent entry and disorderly conduct' is for those where that applies. Simply being in the building probably gets you to that level.

I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.

Back to the intent level, absolutely the charging would likely be different for those remorseful and cooperative (as well as non violent) versus those definitely not remorseful. These guys were the opposite of remorseful...still are.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two- ... us-capitol

And now it's super clear that Robertson is very dangerous. This is sort of guy I'd charge with sedition. Absolutely should know better, but was definitely intent on overthrow of election results and took direct action to that end.

Frankly, I think a whole lot of them are guilty of sedition, though I think it's likely to be a charge reserved for only the very most organized, pre-planning, etc and a heck of a lot of evidence of such intent. Prosecutors tend to gravitate to slam dunk charges first, only adding more when they gather more evidence.

And I continue to think that Trump, Trump Jr, Giuliani, Flynn, Powell and host of Representatives and Senators are the biggest perps of all.
“I don't think everyone identified outside (on the grounds past the breached barriers) will likely be charged with trespass, though they probably should... but we're talking thousands at that point.”

Why not charge EVERY SINGLE ONE of them?

Personal responsibility and accountability, right?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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cradleandshoot
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

ardilla secreta wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:25 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:38 pm
FannOLax wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am Let's clear this up: I dislike malbec. My drinks of choice are a beer, Oban, and the occasional gin and tonic on a hot day in the summer. I drink wine with food. Bourbon and I have a bad relationship; we are divorced.
Not much to like about malbec. If you like reds, Chilean carmenere is nice (carmenere is of French origin, but disease wiped out the grape in France and it turns out they'd sent some cuttings/plants to Chile). I had to google Oban; I'm not a whiskey drinker. Beer, yes. A G&T can be refreshing. It's Friday. Hmmm, Moosehead or Guinness?? Decisions, decisions....
Moosehead or Guinness!! Why not add St. Pauli Girl!? You can do better: Jever, Weihenstephaner, Augustiner, Rothaus Pils, Paulaner are all acceptable.
Moosehead went out in the 80’s. TLD has the right choices.

Argentinian Malbec and Chilean Carmenere is what you drink when on a budget or don’t know better.

There is excellent Malbec, but it’s grown in the Loire Valley near Angers and known as Côt. It’s pale in color, profile of red fruits and wet earth and delightfully quaffable.

https://louisdressner.com/wines?wine=VD ... ont%C3%A9s
I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
FannOLax
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:03 am

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by FannOLax »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:07 pm

I don't think anybody mentioned Becks. One of my go to German beers. Lowenbrau when I can find it.
Beck's is now brewed in Saint Louis, Missouri.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... -packaging
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