Trump's Russian Collusion

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youthathletics
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:11 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:51 pm Worth a watch...

He's flat out lying. Pelosi can't "kick it to the Senate" after holding an inquiry. They have to vote, publicly, and on the record, in the House.

From wikipedia, because it's the simplest description of the process I could find:

-------
First, the Congress investigates. This investigation typically begins in the House Judiciary Committee, but may begin elsewhere. For example, the Nixon impeachment inquiry began in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The facts that led to impeachment of Bill Clinton were first discovered in the course of an investigation by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr.

Second, the House of Representatives must pass, by a simple majority of those present and voting, articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached".

Third, the Senate tries the accused. In the case of the impeachment of a president, the Chief Justice of the United States presides over the proceedings. For the impeachment of any other official, the Constitution is silent on who shall preside, suggesting that this role falls to the Senate's usual presiding officer, the President of the Senate who is also the Vice President of the United States. Conviction in the Senate requires a two-thirds supermajority vote. The result of conviction is removal from office.

------

Levin has gone the way of Maddow. Started out as a reasonable, fantastic conservative. But then he learned that Cheering Trump on lines his pockets, and builds his ratings.

I L-O-V-E that he brought out the Pelosi's panels are from big lib cities. Pandering. Fear. Telling his viewers their voices are being ignored.

He's lying. And it's sad to see. You can't impeach a President without a public vote in both Houses.

This is what i've been complaining about surrounding this case. Levin is asked about the allegations. Instead of simply answering whether or not what Trump admitting doing----asking a foreign leader to investigate a political opponent----- is right or wrong, he instead attacks what he thinks is the messenger.

Levin is saying that truth is party dependent. He's not interested in the fact that Trump and his lawyer already confirmed that the key charge (and likely the only charge, outside of a charge of covering up that key charge). That's irrelevant to him.

He's questioning as to whether water is wet based on the party affiliation of the person he thinks is telling him that water is wet. Further, he wants the WB outed. Yet another dagger into the now dead and rotting corpse that was our WB laws. It's like they WANT more leaking of intel. Ask, and you shall receive.

It's flat out depressing watching this, and I'm left wondering why you thought this was worth a watch, Youthathletics. Care to comment?
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:11 pm
It's flat out depressing watching this, and I'm left wondering why you thought this was worth a watch, Youthathletics. Care to comment?
I agree it is depressing....I was not promoting Levin or even picking a side. The clip just seemed to layout what we all have been bickering back and forth about.

This constitutional law is above my head afan. But I believe this is what Levin was speaking about when he said 'kicking it to the senate'.

Federal Impeachment
Constitutional provisions
The House of Representatives ... shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

— Article I, Section 2, Clause 5
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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He was flat out lying to make it appear to listeners that the House doesn't have to vote on impeachement, and somehow it just magically lands in the Senate with no vote.

He's lying. Doing it intentionally.
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old salt
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:40 pm Yeah, but the DNI and IG are part of the "DEEP STATE" according to many of our fellow posters.
Painful to see.
The IG said the complaint " appears credible." He did not say the complaint " is credible."

The IG also said there were indications of bias in the complaint.

I'm looking forward to hearing from the IG & learning about timing & process of changing the hearsay rules regarding IC WB's.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm The IG also said there were indications of bias in the complaint.
We're going to hear this "defense" from right wing media non-stop from here on out, so we might as well give this a name. It's the "Wetness of water is party dependent" defense. It makes no sense no matter how many times this" defense" is rolled out.

Respectfully, Old Salt, we've been over this. It doesn't matter if there is bias. Are the allegations true, or not true? The person making the complaint is immaterial to the conversation. At no point do we have to judge the WB, because it's not about the WB's opinion on some abstract subject.

This defense was trotted out during Muller and Strozk. And this defense was even more bizarre, because Strozk found no evidence of what would normally be considered to be a criminal offense by the President. So Strozk found the POTUS not guilty, in effect. But R's still hit him for bias. Weird.

But in any event this ignores the obvious corollary. If the WB's complaint is invalidated because he hates Trump, does it not follow that the complaint is invalidated if he loves Trump? Of course it does. The water is wet defense seeks to confuse citizens to the point where they ignore whether or not the WB's allegations are true or not. And we already know that the primary complaint is true, because Trump told us it was.
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm I'm looking forward to hearing from the IG & learning about timing & process of changing the hearsay rules regarding IC WB's.
They're allowed to change rules. And it appears that they did it to get WB complaints through on Trump. Considering what has transpired, and that Trump has confirmed the key allegation, is this rule change bad?

If that law wasn't changed, odds are, this would have simply been leaked. Is that your preferred path? I would think you'd want it to be EASIER to use the WB act, not harder.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:36 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm The IG also said there were indications of bias in the complaint.
We're going to hear this "defense" from right wing media non-stop from here on out, so we might as well give this a name. It's the "Wetness of water is party dependent" defense. It makes no sense no matter how many times this" defense" is rolled out.

Respectfully, Old Salt, we've been over this. It doesn't matter if there is bias. Are the allegations true, or not true? The person making the complaint is immaterial to the conversation. At no point do we have to judge the WB, because it's not about the WB's opinion on some abstract subject.

This defense was trotted out during Muller and Strozk. And this defense was even more bizarre, because Strozk found no evidence of what would normally be considered to be a criminal offense by the President. So Strozk found the POTUS not guilty, in effect. But R's still hit him for bias. Weird.

But in any event this ignores the obvious corollary. If the WB's complaint is invalidated because he hates Trump, does it not follow that the complaint is invalidated if he loves Trump? Of course it does. The water is wet defense seeks to confuse citizens to the point where they ignore whether or not the WB's allegations are true or not. And we already know that the primary complaint is true, because Trump told us it was.
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm I'm looking forward to hearing from the IG & learning about timing & process of changing the hearsay rules regarding IC WB's.
They're allowed to change rules. And it appears that they did it to get WB complaints through on Trump. Considering what has transpired, and that Trump has confirmed the key allegation, is this rule change bad?

If that law wasn't changed, odds are, this would have simply been leaked. Is that your preferred path? I would think you'd want it to be EASIER to use the WB act, not harder.
Much of the WB's claim had already been leaked & published, attributed to unnamed current & former officials.
The WB (& apparently his informants) did not have access to the transcript in the super secret server, so they were unable to leak it.
This was a mechanism to force the declassification & release of the transcript, as fodder for impeachment.
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youthathletics
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:00 pm He was flat out lying to make it appear to listeners that the House doesn't have to vote on impeachement, and somehow it just magically lands in the Senate with no vote.

He's lying. Doing it intentionally.
I just listened again to the first 1 minute again, specifically .35 --> .55 where you say he is lying. What part is lying form him....?" so the the whole nation participates and decides..through our elected representatives"
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:40 pm Yeah, but the DNI and IG are part of the "DEEP STATE" according to many of our fellow posters.
Painful to see.
The IG said the complaint " appears credible." He did not say the complaint " is credible."

The IG also said there were indications of bias in the complaint.

I'm looking forward to hearing from the IG & learning about timing & process of changing the hearsay rules regarding IC WB's.
No, he did not say there were indications of bias...he said indicia indicating that the WB had supported another candidate...could have been Rubio...

and he had interviewed the WB and others and found yes the complaint "appears to be credible"...he and his team investigated for two weeks...this is what they do. Doesn't mean that every aspect is accurate nor that activities were necessarily illegal...but the complaint alleges very significant wrongdoing and the IG and his team found those allegations "appears credible".

But nope you and the rest of Q'Anon want to talk about the process as if it's all a huge Deep State conspiracy...anything but the underlying allegations.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:48 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:36 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm The IG also said there were indications of bias in the complaint.
We're going to hear this "defense" from right wing media non-stop from here on out, so we might as well give this a name. It's the "Wetness of water is party dependent" defense. It makes no sense no matter how many times this" defense" is rolled out.

Respectfully, Old Salt, we've been over this. It doesn't matter if there is bias. Are the allegations true, or not true? The person making the complaint is immaterial to the conversation. At no point do we have to judge the WB, because it's not about the WB's opinion on some abstract subject.

This defense was trotted out during Muller and Strozk. And this defense was even more bizarre, because Strozk found no evidence of what would normally be considered to be a criminal offense by the President. So Strozk found the POTUS not guilty, in effect. But R's still hit him for bias. Weird.

But in any event this ignores the obvious corollary. If the WB's complaint is invalidated because he hates Trump, does it not follow that the complaint is invalidated if he loves Trump? Of course it does. The water is wet defense seeks to confuse citizens to the point where they ignore whether or not the WB's allegations are true or not. And we already know that the primary complaint is true, because Trump told us it was.
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:18 pm I'm looking forward to hearing from the IG & learning about timing & process of changing the hearsay rules regarding IC WB's.
They're allowed to change rules. And it appears that they did it to get WB complaints through on Trump. Considering what has transpired, and that Trump has confirmed the key allegation, is this rule change bad?

If that law wasn't changed, odds are, this would have simply been leaked. Is that your preferred path? I would think you'd want it to be EASIER to use the WB act, not harder.
Much of the WB's claim had already been leaked & published, attributed to unnamed current & former officials.
The WB (& apparently his informants) did not have access to the transcript in the super secret server, so they were unable to leak it.
This was a mechanism to force the declassification & release of the transcript, as fodder for impeachment.
Q'Anon conspiracy theory...about as credible as any of the rest of their claptrap
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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I didn't say anything about .35---->.55.

Where he lied was starting at the 1.00 mark, and at 1.30 is where he says "then they want to throw it into the Senate for a spectacle".

That's a lie. Pelosi has no such power to do that. The House has to publicly vote on impeachment. Levin is telling viewers that they don't have to vote to move it to the Senate. Pelosi just has to "throw it to the Senate", whatever that means.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:48 pm This was a mechanism to force the declassification & release of the transcript, as fodder for impeachment.
Respectfully, you're sidestepping the obvious. Trump has said that the WB main allegation is true.

The WB followed all applicable laws. You can't really complain about that, can you? Doubly so when what the main point WB is complaining about has been confirmed to be true by the President himself.

Isn't the truth the driver here?
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:33 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:48 pm This was a mechanism to force the declassification & release of the transcript, as fodder for impeachment.
Trump has said that the WB main allegation is true.
In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple U.S. Government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 U.S. election.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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Yes. Biden is a 2020 candidate for President, yes?

Perhaps you'd like to clarify why you posted that highlighted portion?
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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Interesting twitter attack from the DNC Chalupa lady (& sister) on Ken Vogel (now of the NYT) for his POLITICO artice about her dealings with the Ukrainian govt in the 2016 campaign. She's about to become famous. Maybe she could get a deal as a Taco Bell endorser.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ ... ire-233446
https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/ne ... government
https://twitter.com/AndreaChalupa/statu ... 0058620928
https://twitter.com/AlexandraChalup
Trinity
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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Do you know her story? What happened as she made her documentary? She was warning about Manafort from Day One. Putin’s front man to the West running, for free, an American campaign immediately struck her as wrong. Her cyber harassment was intense, relentless.

Amazing work by Rep Kevin McCarthy last night on 6o minutes. Totally unprepared. Always send him, please.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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Trinity wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:49 am Do you know her story? What happened as she made her documentary? She was warning about Manafort from Day One. Putin’s front man to the West running, for free, an American campaign immediately struck her as wrong. Her cyber harassment was intense, relentless.

Amazing work by Rep Kevin McCarthy last night on 6o minutes. Totally unprepared. Always send him, please.
Yeah, McCarthy was remarkable. This is the minority leader in the House. Wow.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

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McCarthy once told Paul Ryan he thought Putin paid Trump and Dana Russiabacker. Ryan told him to stfu.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by ABV 8.3% »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:51 pm
ABV 8.3% wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:20 pm you assume I don't because I don't post a comment? something about presumptions. Perhaps my mistake is I AM REPLYING to a comment several pages before. evah notice that?
So I give you quotes proving you're making assumptions that are incorrect, and you can't simply say "yeah, you're right, I'll ease up"?

Come on my friend. If you're going to ask me to tone it down, you've got to give a little, too. Tell me I'm right, and move on. Just as I'm about to do below.
No...you accused me of NOT reading what you and others wrote. Because I don't reply. Don't make this bigger than it IS small.
ABV 8.3% wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:20 pm A collective YOU do NOT hammer libs or praise tRump Again, 90% of ALL posts are Trump related
Of course they are! He's the President! What are we supposed to talk about here?

tRump doesn't vote for the bills. We are supposed to discuss legislation, Congress, Lobbyists, Citizens United, USS pos FORD, etc. Ever go to the same party, over and over and over again?

Asking that the press or posters to cover one Dem candidate of over a dozen at anywhere near the same level as a sitting President is absurd.

But you know this. Devil's Advocate is great. Evenhandedness is great. But that doesn't mean we have to get ridiculous about it, and start posting articles about corrupt Dog Catchers because they have liberal views.

Our most active thread when Obama was President was (Drumroll) "The Obama era". Coincidence.
ABV 8.3% wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:20 pm So, you are agreeing with my observation that your tone has changed ? Seems like it.
Absolutely, you're right! I'm returning fire. But as I said, I've now toned it down, and expect you to do the same.

But if you go back to attack after attack with a different tone? I'll call it out. And if you don't stop, then no more complaining when I return fire.

Fair? Yes, fair. However, like MDLaxfan, lots of passive aggressive causeNeffect. (he just called me a wimp ) But, he won't claim he insulted first. I think you are not understanding the importance of who "hits" first. Is calling someone a wimp an insult? If I reply (don't care ) Is reply to said insult hitting first? Lots of bitting sarcasm from many, including myself. I try to make it about taats, not us. We are not the problem, but we sure do a great job of putting US in the problem que when we should be fishing.
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
Trinity
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by Trinity »

“Fox News has learned that the Pentagon, State Department, and National Security Council were ‘unanimous’ in supporting the aid to Ukraine, and that Trump acted alone in withholding the aid over the summer.”
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:42 pm Yes. Biden is a 2020 candidate for President, yes?

Perhaps you'd like to clarify why you posted that highlighted portion?
actually - right now Biden is a candidate for the Democratic nomination for president. He is not an opponent of Trump, he is an opponent of Warren, Sanders, Harris, et al
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
Trinity
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ...from Mueller to Ukraine to ??

Post by Trinity »

“There has never been any requirement that #whistleblowers were required to possess first-hand knowledge to file complaint. No law anywhere states that.” Says the lawyer for Deep Whistle. The story about some last minute change to that requirement is false, pushed by Republican trolls.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-shows ... ower-smear
Last edited by Trinity on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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