LaxPower Back-Up Stick

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:37 pm

HooDat wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:17 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:31 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

DMac has a point here. And I am sorry MDlax, I don't think there boards are anywhere near 60/40. There is something about FanLax that leans very far left. There are a lot of very left leaning participants on the politics forum that do nothing other than post memes or pithy put-downs on conservatives.

No. There's one. Brookie. And for years and years, everyone ignored him. Read his sometimes funny, sometimes not comics .....and moved on.

You guys are leaving out a WHOLE mess of context from all those years at Laxpower. I'll give you my opinion as to why the Republicans (who aren't conservatives) scurried away.

The Water Cooler started at the very end of the Bush era. It's a pity we can't search those old posts. The first posters knew each other from years of posting on (mostly) the D1 section of Laxpower.

So Obama takes office, and we've got the spectrum of right, left and center. And what happens for the next 8 years? Obama can't do anything right. Posters blame Obama for anything that happens anywhere. Arab spring comes to mind. Obama's in charge of what happens in Egypt. Why? Oh, he made a speech. So it's all on him. And then came the complaints on "apologizing" for America. Then he left Iraq wrong. And handled Putin wrong. And on and on.

And then the Tea Party, complaining about "out of control spending". So guess how plentiful and happy Republicans are to post on Laxpower with a D in the White House, and two wars he inherited from Bush? Oh, they LOVED posting here, naturally.

Now were many or even most of these criticisms valid/legit? Of course!!! But that's not the problem.

Trump shows up. Now these posters are on the hook for all the "honest" complaints they made when Obama was in office. 8 years of telling us what's important to them in governance. All while insisting that they're discussing their "values", instead of complaining because they're Republicans and Obama was a Dem.

Do I need to tell you what happened next? I'll do it if you want.

Cliff notes? Trump arrives, and "miraculously", all their values disappear. Suddenly spending isn't a problem (my point that Trump made the Federal Gv. 66% larger in a laughable 4 years). Tea party disappears immediately. More socialism isn't a problem. Billions in cash handouts to farmers for no reason isn't a problem. The corruption they were livid about under Obama isn't a problem. Fannie and Freddie.....they were LIVID about them under Obama. Under Trump? Not a peep. And it goes on and on.

So what did I and other posters who took their complaints under Obama at face value do? We hammered them. This is a marketplace for ideas, and just a few months of Trump showed us that these posters aren't conservatives at all. They're partisans.....and will find excuses as to why what Trump did is fine. Or not a big deal. Or "you guys have TDS"....all while forgetting about all the "values" they claimed they had when Obama was in office.

Speaking for myself? I was REALLY disappointed to find this out the hard way. I took their critiques of Obama seriously....when it turns out that they would have been Obama's biggest fan, if all Obama did was run as a Republican.

That's the context guys. And this is why the fake conservatives ran away. They REFUSED to criticize Trump for doing the same stuff they lost their minds over when Obama did it. And they didn't like getting called out for being hypocrites. So they left.

if Hillary had won the election? No one would have known this. And the Republicans would have stayed here, and gleefully kept right on criticizing Hillary's little D.

Some poster here want to pretend that every new post in written in a vacuum. It's not. There's context here. And the actual conservatives left the building, my man. Why do you think I keep asking: what's the plan if you guys get in power to fix things, and help the working class, and pull power away from the globalist that they are claiming they despise?

You don't find it disturbing that not one supposed conservative can answer that question? I do. It sucks. Because it means it's all on the Dems to govern on the Federal level. The R's have plainly and clearly given up.

Edited a few mistakes...

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm
I find it amusing that afan is not disappointed in, & let down by, his fellow liberal partisans.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:20 pm I'm 10 times more conservative than you are, my man. 10 times. Wanna go over it point by point...and then look over your posts to see if you're being honest?

Happy to do it. You won't like it.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm ...or maybe they tired of all the bile, negativity & personal attacks. Calculated that it was not worth wading through the toxic sludge for the increasingly fewer nuggets of information, & concluded it was no longer worth their effort to participate, or even look in.

The moderators on LP held diverse political opinions & differed with each other, but worked hard to keep the discussions civil.
They may have bruised a few egos in the process, but the results spoke for themselves
I'm not faulting the FL Admin for not making that significant investment in time & effort.
This politics forum is not the reason for the existence of this lax site. I'm grateful that they offered this lifeboat.

I find it amusing that afan is not disappointed in, & let down by, his fellow liberal partisans.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:49 am

HooDat wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:36 am somebody LIKES his echo chamber.....

I am laughing at your consistent use of language that serves as a wedge. You choose the words that you use. I know I do. Your Devil advocacy always leans one way. I think it’s funny.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:44 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

I am one.

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm It's not that easy, a fan, where did all the independents go?
How many people do you really have left here? Not everyone
is a D or R but for the most part all you have left here is Ds
and left leaning posters. I think a lot of people just got tired
of the echo chamber and piling on.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:43 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:45 am A human being is not one thing among others; things determine each other, but man is ultimately self-determining. What he becomes - within the limits of endowment and environment- he has made out of himself. In the concentration camps, for example, in this living laboratory and on this testing ground, we watched and witnessed some of our comrades behave like swine while others behaved like saints. Man has both potentialities within himself; which one is actualized depends on decisions but not on conditions.......

-Victor Frankel

Great book, required reading.

Still think that posters around here are far too trigger happy to jump on OS, repeatedly.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:43 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:45 am A human being is not one thing among others; things determine each other, but man is ultimately self-determining. What he becomes - within the limits of endowment and environment- he has made out of himself. In the concentration camps, for example, in this living laboratory and on this testing ground, we watched and witnessed some of our comrades behave like swine while others behaved like saints. Man has both potentialities within himself; which one is actualized depends on decisions but not on conditions.......

-Victor Frankel

Great book, required reading.

Still think that posters around here are far too trigger happy to jump on OS, repeatedly.

I dunno, in this exchange, OS really 'asked for it'.
He's entirely free to clarify, but each post dug the hole deeper.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:22 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

+100

Call it what they want, but it really boils down to gaslighting and borderlines online bullying.

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:31 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:52 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:45 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:31 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am

DMac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:14 am How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

I'd like to see many more posters on here as well, would make for a richer conversation, even more information flow. But that should be primarily focused on more lax focused posters, participating actively there...some % will decide to participate in these other forums, but we definitely don't have as many lax posters as would be ideal.

They didn't all migrate...it would make sense to find ways to attract more...

But seems to me that on LP we had a set of 'moderators' who, at least to this poster's perspective', edited and cut posts they personally didn't agree with, and with no reasonable explanation...we asked for a more open and transparent, less biased system...and I think we've gotten that...

I'd suggest that there's a relatively new phenomenon on forums, the really egregious trolling and flaming. I'd sure like to have a space where we can talk about issues with a minimum of such.

Yep. A moderator that moderated what he didn’t like. Personally, I don’t like a moderator that is a partisan participant. Like having a player be the ref.

HooDat wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:58 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:55 am BTW, HooDat, I don't think you were being "lazy" about these words. I think you're sincerely concerned about the words being misunderstood and causing greater division, less "unity".

Even more than that, I agree that the words are being used by some in the GOP as: at worst a not so subtle wink to the racist elements of the party; or at best a tacit acknowledgement that those voters exists and trying to keep them in the fold.

Since I assumed (never ass u me ) that part was obvious, I was pointing out my fear that there are people attempting to start with the historic background in "nationalism" you describe, but then take it a step further to nudge the argument in the direction of doing away with nations. In other words attempting to morph your reasonable wariness of nationalism that becomes exaggerated into a distrust of nations altogether.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:55 am The "America First" (words that independently have benign meaning) movement has deep roots in ultra-nationalist fascism and should be rejected by "patriotic" Americans who actually believe in American ideals. Disagree on various decisions internationally, the use of soft or hard power in specific situations, but lets unify under the notion that the world is not zero sum...

Here is where it gets interesting (and complicated) to me.

If your starting point is on the spot labeled "America First" there are a lot of directions you can go. One is certainly ultra-nationalist, although I am not sure where fascism comes into play. In fact, I see the danger of fascism being far more acute under the globalist umbrella - or at least the current hybrid globalist system that places global corporations at the head of the table, using their power and money to get the political responses, laws and regulations they want. Another direction you can go is to build systems and infrastructure that supports the working class citizens of your country. Rather than spend money on military dalliances, spend it on those schools afan wants to run or on a better social safety net.

I believe (perhaps naively) that the vast majority of people sympathetic to the call for "America First" view it as just another way of expressing sentiments like: "made in America" or "look for the union label" that were prevalent in the 70's and 80's.

I also wonder if it is right to assume that the world isn't in fact a zero sum game. Certainly if you look at the world we currently live in (or have any realistic chance of building for ourselves) it would be quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that it is indeed a zero sum world. The shift in economic distribution that has occurred over our lifetimes would support that conclusion. I have come to know several people who have accumulated absurd levels of wealth (measured in billions) and even more that have a net worth north of $500 million; every single one of them live their lives as though it is a zero sum game - some will even tell you as much.

At a minimum I think it is worth questioning the economic theories and certitudes of economists (based on assuming away friction costs and thinking at the "macro" level) that have led us to where we are economically in the US. Put another way - tell the workers in Detroit, or the former store owners in small town America that it isn't a zero sum game. It sure was for them.....

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:22 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:20 pm I'm 10 times more conservative than you are, my man. 10 times. Wanna go over it point by point...and then look over your posts to see if you're being honest?

Happy to do it. You won't like it.

God NO. You've driven off enough posters already. Worn them down.

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:23 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm ...or maybe they tired of all the bile, negativity & personal attacks. Calculated that it was not worth wading through the toxic sludge for the increasingly fewer nuggets of information, & concluded it was no longer worth their effort to participate, or even look in.

The moderators on LP held diverse political opinions & differed with each other, but worked hard to keep the discussions civil.
They may have bruised a few egos in the process, but the results spoke for themselves
I'm not faulting the FL Admin for not making that significant investment in time & effort.
This politics forum is not the reason for the existence of this lax site. I'm grateful that they offered this lifeboat.

I find it amusing that afan is not disappointed in, & let down by, his fellow liberal partisans.

If you want a COMMUNITY and not just a shooting gallery, one has to fall somewhere between the perceived overkill at LP vs laizzez-faire here.
Seacoaster has the best explanation so far. In addition, people do change, especially when the environment changes.
LP had 100X more participants than here which does make a difference but here roughly 40% of the contributions (posts) are made by only 10 or so people.

HooDat wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:25 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:49 am

HooDat wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:36 am somebody LIKES his echo chamber.....

I am laughing at your consistent use of language that serves as a wedge. You choose the words that you use. I know I do. Your Devil advocacy always leans one way. I think it’s funny.

On FanLax - there just happens to be a lot more need to the devil to advocate one certain way.....

But, I make no bones about the fact that I am a conservative person - I just don't make a very good conservative in the political sense. I guess is it all comes down to what you chose to conserve and how you go about deciding what is worth conserving. Fact is there are a lot of conservatives that think I am a left wing nut job. And the real problem is I hate both political parties. If you gave me the choice of voting for Biden/Trump or Bernie - I would pull the lever for Bernie with joy in my heart.

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:48 pm

Maybe you have an explanation why so many posters are now former posters?

Easy answer, Cranky: all us libs at this forum do such a GREAT job of explaining why liberalism is the best way forward for our country and why the form of conservatism that Donald Trump has pushed the GOP into...well...just flat SUCKS! We're watching the implosion of conservativism in real time, right before our eyes. They have a serious fever that is unlikely to break anytime soon. Maybe once Orange Duce is behind bars and a couple of these whackadoodle SCOTUS justices get impeached...

If posters leave the forum, it is, no doubt, because their preferred political ideology has COMPLETELY failed them...and the country, and there is simply no defending what it has become. Come back when you can admit that and can engage in GENUINE political discourse...

ps: my cliff notes version of af's post doesn't hold a candle...WHAT HE SAID!

..