January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

I am one.

[MDlaxfan76]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

I'd like to see many more posters on here as well, would make for a richer conversation, even more information flow. But that should be primarily focused on more lax focused posters, participating actively there...some % will decide to participate in these other forums, but we definitely don't have as many lax posters as would be ideal.

They didn't all migrate...it would make sense to find ways to attract more...

But seems to me that on LP we had a set of 'moderators' who, at least to this poster's perspective', edited and cut posts they personally didn't agree with, and with no reasonable explanation...we asked for a more open and transparent, less biased system...and I think we've gotten that...

I'd suggest that there's a relatively new phenomenon on forums, the really egregious trolling and flaming. I'd sure like to have a space where we can talk about issues with a minimum of such.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

I'd like to see many more posters on here as well, would make for a richer conversation, even more information flow. But that should be primarily focused on more lax focused posters, participating actively there...some % will decide to participate in these other forums, but we definitely don't have as many lax posters as would be ideal.

They didn't all migrate...it would make sense to find ways to attract more...

But seems to me that on LP we had a set of 'moderators' who, at least to this poster's perspective', edited and cut posts they personally didn't agree with, and with no reasonable explanation...we asked for a more open and transparent, less biased system...and I think we've gotten that...

I'd suggest that there's a relatively new phenomenon on forums, the really egregious trolling and flaming. I'd sure like to have a space where we can talk about issues with a minimum of such.

Yep. A moderator that moderated what he didn’t like. Personally, I don’t like a moderator that is a partisan participant. Like having a player be the ref.

[DMac]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

I am one.

Yes, which you have clearly stated previously. Your distaste for salty clouds your thinking, your immediate inclination, pretty much regardless of what he says, is to come up with some sort of nasty sarcastic barb.

[HooDat]

BTW, HooDat, I don't think you were being "lazy" about these words. I think you're sincerely concerned about the words being misunderstood and causing greater division, less "unity".

Even more than that, I agree that the words are being used by some in the GOP as: at worst a not so subtle wink to the racist elements of the party; or at best a tacit acknowledgement that those voters exists and trying to keep them in the fold.

Since I assumed (never ass u me ) that part was obvious, I was pointing out my fear that there are people attempting to start with the historic background in "nationalism" you describe, but then take it a step further to nudge the argument in the direction of doing away with nations. In other words attempting to morph your reasonable wariness of nationalism that becomes exaggerated into a distrust of nations altogether.

The "America First" (words that independently have benign meaning) movement has deep roots in ultra-nationalist fascism and should be rejected by "patriotic" Americans who actually believe in American ideals. Disagree on various decisions internationally, the use of soft or hard power in specific situations, but lets unify under the notion that the world is not zero sum...

Here is where it gets interesting (and complicated) to me.

If your starting point is on the spot labeled "America First" there are a lot of directions you can go. One is certainly ultra-nationalist, although I am not sure where fascism comes into play. In fact, I see the danger of fascism being far more acute under the globalist umbrella - or at least the current hybrid globalist system that places global corporations at the head of the table, using their power and money to get the political responses, laws and regulations they want. Another direction you can go is to build systems and infrastructure that supports the working class citizens of your country. Rather than spend money on military dalliances, spend it on those schools afan wants to run or on a better social safety net.

I believe (perhaps naively) that the vast majority of people sympathetic to the call for "America First" view it as just another way of expressing sentiments like: "made in America" or "look for the union label" that were prevalent in the 70's and 80's.

I also wonder if it is right to assume that the world isn't in fact a zero sum game. Certainly if you look at the world we currently live in (or have any realistic chance of building for ourselves) it would be quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that it is indeed a zero sum world. The shift in economic distribution that has occurred over our lifetimes would support that conclusion. I have come to know several people who have accumulated absurd levels of wealth (measured in billions) and even more that have a net worth north of $500 million; every single one of them live their lives as though it is a zero sum game - some will even tell you as much.

At a minimum I think it is worth questioning the economic theories and certitudes of economists (based on assuming away friction costs and thinking at the "macro" level) that have led us to where we are economically in the US. Put another way - tell the workers in Detroit, or the former store owners in small town America that it isn't a zero sum game. It sure was for them.....

[DMac]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

I'd like to see many more posters on here as well, would make for a richer conversation, even more information flow. But that should be primarily focused on more lax focused posters, participating actively there...some % will decide to participate in these other forums, but we definitely don't have as many lax posters as would be ideal.

They didn't all migrate...it would make sense to find ways to attract more...

But seems to me that on LP we had a set of 'moderators' who, at least to this poster's perspective', edited and cut posts they personally didn't agree with, and with no reasonable explanation...we asked for a more open and transparent, less biased system...and I think we've gotten that...

I'd suggest that there's a relatively new phenomenon on forums, the really egregious trolling and flaming. I'd sure like to have a space where we can talk about issues with a minimum of such.

Yep. A moderator that moderated what he didn’t like. Personally, I don’t like a moderator that is a partisan participant. Like having a player be the ref.

You two guys (or anyone else for that matter) never ever, ever, ever, not even once, saw OS (rr) edit or delete anyone's post or send them on a "vacation" (the penalty box here) at LP. randyrad never did that, you could disagree with him all you wanted to there, there were no consequences from him there just because he was a Moderator.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

I am one.

Yes, which you have clearly stated previously. Your distaste for salty clouds your thinking, your immediate inclination, pretty much regardless of what he says, is to come up with some sort of nasty sarcastic barb.

If I see through his bull$hit. Otherwise I ignore it. I am not phony. There is almost nothing that I say here that I don’t say to friends. Just went through a “woke” debate with one of my best friends from college. He believes people are more sensitive today. I told him folk used to have to hold their tongues. Don’t misconstrue being silent with being OK with it. Anyway, I might try to be less incisive when it comes to Old Way of Thinking Dude next year. It may be something to test my discipline.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

I'd like to see many more posters on here as well, would make for a richer conversation, even more information flow. But that should be primarily focused on more lax focused posters, participating actively there...some % will decide to participate in these other forums, but we definitely don't have as many lax posters as would be ideal.

They didn't all migrate...it would make sense to find ways to attract more...

But seems to me that on LP we had a set of 'moderators' who, at least to this poster's perspective', edited and cut posts they personally didn't agree with, and with no reasonable explanation...we asked for a more open and transparent, less biased system...and I think we've gotten that...

I'd suggest that there's a relatively new phenomenon on forums, the really egregious trolling and flaming. I'd sure like to have a space where we can talk about issues with a minimum of such.

Yep. A moderator that moderated what he didn’t like. Personally, I don’t like a moderator that is a partisan participant. Like having a player be the ref.

You two guys (or anyone else for that matter) never ever, ever, ever, not even once, saw OS (rr) edit or delete anyone's post or send them on a "vacation" (the penalty box here) at LP. randyrad never did that, you could disagree with him all you wanted to there, there were no consequences from him there just because he was a Moderator.

In haven’t seen a lot of things in life that are in fact true.

[cradleandshoot]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

+100

Call it what they want, but it really boils down to gaslighting and borderlines online bullying.

Really?
It's not as if posters are posting falsehoods about Salty, rather they are responding directly to his current and many past posts.
He's demonstrated quite a lot of competence in communicating his views, as well as his insights, experience, and perspectives.

I see considerable respect for where there's perceived real value in his posts, based on experience and knowledge, but strong disagreement when his personal perspectives include influences that have led to what some see as evidence of outright bigotries.

Is that off limits when he demonstrates such in a post?
Isn't he free to clarify if he thinks someone has actually misunderstood him?

I'm fine with my biases being challenged...and I've seen my share of flaming at me, only a few times truly out of bounds, IMO.

So when a euphemism like " Old Soviet" is tossed out there to insult him you don't respond in any way shape or form?? GOT IT!!! You will nit pick every word I say but you will NEVER call out the posters that you suck up to on a daily basis. You ready to castigate 72 for his ever increasing use of defining Republicans in general as scum bags? There are a number of posters on this forum MD who disparage and insult their fellow posters every damn day on this forum. Why do you think fewer and fewer people with a conservative perspective even bother to post here any more? FTR I exclude you from being a conservative. Go through your own mental checklist of posters who no longer contribute. If you have an inquiring mind, ask yourself why??
In our old forum the former moderator was a hard ass. He was also generally fair who he handed out yellow flags to. I guarantee damn tee you calling anybody or referring to any group of people as scum bags would never be acceptable. I'm not ready to sign off of this forum yet. I have been gifted with some great knowledge by people on this forum who I admire and respect. Some of them despise me and some of them simply put up with me. The unofficial name for this thread should be the league of extraordinary gentlemen. As long as your not a Republican/conservative or you dare to disagree with FLP mob speak. Then your good to go...

[HooDat]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

DMac has a point here. And I am sorry MDlax, I don't think there boards are anywhere near 60/40. There is something about FanLax that leans very far left. There are a lot of very left leaning participants on the politics forum that do nothing other than post memes or pithy put-downs on conservatives. I come and go on the Politic threads because I just get tired of their nonsense. And for what little they contribute, while obviously trying to provoke - I have yet to see one sent to the box. In fact, they are more than tolerated by your average member of the boards even though they are not even pretending to try to add to the dialogue.

On the other hand OS always seems to be engaging in good faith, but is treated by a lot of folks here with little to no respect. I know OS is a big boy who can take care of himself, but the intolerant left leaning superior tone DMac references has other consequences - and those consequences are the right wing nut job trolls like Bandito in his many forms.

Rather than tell DMac he is off base, maybe folks should think about why he feels compelled to say something about it. I am sure he to understands that OS is perfectly capable of taking standing up to the criticism, and yet he's putting his neck out in OS's defense.

[HooDat]

Go through your own mental checklist of posters who no longer contribute. If you have an inquiring mind, ask yourself why??

This.

[DMac]

Hear! Hear!! It has been said that there are so few participants left because of trolls but that aint the case, folks.
HooDat pretty much just told you why (a very sharp poster who rarely participates here anymore).

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

DMac has a point here. And I am sorry MDlax, I don't think there boards are anywhere near 60/40. There is something about FanLax that leans very far left. There are a lot of very left leaning participants on the politics forum that do nothing other than post memes or pithy put-downs on conservatives. I come and go on the Politic threads because I just get tired of their nonsense. And for what little they contribute, while obviously trying to provoke - I have yet to see one sent to the box. In fact, they are more than tolerated by your average member of the boards even though they are not even pretending to try to add to the dialogue.

On the other hand OS always seems to be engaging in good faith, but is treated by a lot of folks here with little to no respect. I know OS is a big boy who can take care of himself, but the intolerant left leaning superior tone DMac references has other consequences - and those consequences are the right wing nut job trolls like Bandito in his many forms.

Rather than tell DMac he is off base, maybe folks should think about why he feels compelled to say something about it. I am sure he to understands that OS is perfectly capable of taking standing up to the criticism, and yet he's putting his neck out in OS's defense.

[HooDat]

somebody LIKES his echo chamber.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

somebody LIKES his echo chamber.....

I am laughing at your consistent use of language that serves as a wedge. You choose the words that you use. I know I do. Your Devil advocacy always leans one way. I think it’s funny.

[a fan]

If your starting point is on the spot labeled "America First" there are a lot of directions you can go. One is certainly ultra-nationalist, although I am not sure where fascism comes into play. In fact, I see the danger of fascism being far more acute under the globalist umbrella - or at least the current hybrid globalist system that places global corporations at the head of the table, using their power and money to get the political responses, laws and regulations they want.

That's the path Trump chose, and his fans don't understand that. And you cannot convince them otherwise.

Biden, as I've noted several times, left the Trump tax cuts in place "accidentally". And is pursing his center-right foreign agenda of returning to the role of global cop.

But....but.....he did pass a small infrastructure bill that would have been far larger had the R's not stupidly stripped the size of the bill down. The electrical grid that Republicans are complaining about? Why aren't they asking we update it? Simple: a Dem signed the bill. And we can't have that, right?

Another direction you can go is to build systems and infrastructure that supports the working class citizens of your country. Rather than spend money on military dalliances, spend it on those schools afan wants to run or on a better social safety net.

That's what Bernie was selling. REAL America First. That's what Old Salt wants, but sadly, this MUST be executed by someone with a R by his name. Same goes for millions of working class Republican voters who would have been MILES ahead if Bernie had been elected.....assuming the R's would let him pass any bills, naturally. And they wouldn't do that.

[cradleandshoot]

somebody LIKES his echo chamber.....

I am laughing at your consistent use of language that serves as a wedge. You choose the words that you use. I know I do. Your Devil advocacy always leans one way. I think it’s funny.

Maybe you have an explanation why so many posters are now former posters? That is the pertinent question here. Maybe your carefully chosen choice of words has something to with that fact. I could clarify that and narrow it down to your brain numbing idiotic use of video clips you prefer instead of actual words. Unless of course idiotic mind numbing video clips are your preferred method of communicating your point of view. FTR, that is not using the English language to communicate. I just thought I would tell you that for a friend who is worried about you.

[a fan]

How many posters do you have here? You have a handful of people who go back and forth (and spend way too much time wallowing in the sky is falling and nothing is right world). Of that handful how many don't like OS's persona? 80-90%? This is not a level playing field and posters are way too trigger happy to take shots at OS, there is no question about that. I'm not a left-right, D-R person but right here you can see how the more left and D folks who claim moral and ethical superiority are real quick to jump on and be nasty to those who disagree or are of a different opinion. This is as plain to see as the noses on your faces boys.

Is this just an observation, or do you have a remedy? Should people who have a difference of opinion refrain from voicing it when OS opines? Should OS not opine? What is your plan?

Of course it's an observation (a years long one at that). Nope, no one should refrain from or not opine. I'm not interested in coming up with a remedy and have no plan to do so.
When it was LP and there were many, many more posters (and some pretty darn sharp ones at that) things didn't go down the way they do here where it's a 9 v 1 and everybody pile on game. The discussions were much better there, was a much broader base and much less gang mentality. Jus' sayin'.

DMac has a point here. And I am sorry MDlax, I don't think there boards are anywhere near 60/40. There is something about FanLax that leans very far left. There are a lot of very left leaning participants on the politics forum that do nothing other than post memes or pithy put-downs on conservatives.

No. There's one. Brookie. And for years and years, everyone ignored him. Read his sometimes funny, sometimes not comics .....and moved on.

You guys are leaving out a WHOLE mess of context from all those years at Laxpower. I'll give you my opinion as to why the Republicans (who aren't conservatives) scurried away.

The Water Cooler started at the very end of the Bush era. It's a pity we can't search those old posts. The first posters knew each other from years of posting on (mostly) the D1 section of Laxpower.

So Obama takes office, and we've got the spectrum of right, left and center. And what happens for the next 8 years? Obama can't do anything right. Posters blame Obama for anything that happens anywhere. Arab spring comes to mind. Obama's in charge of what happens in Egypt. Why? Oh, he made a speech. So it's all on him. And then came the complaints on "apologizing" for America. Then he left Iraq wrong. And handled Putin wrong. And on and on.

And then the Tea Party, complaining about "out of control spending". So guess how plentiful and happy Republicans are to post on Laxpower with a D in the White House, and two wars he inherited from Bush? Oh, they LOVED posting here, naturally.

Now were many or even most of these criticisms valid/legit? Of course!!! But that's not the problem.

Trump shows up. Now these posters are on the hook for all the "honest" complaints they made when Obama was in office. 8 years of telling us what's important to them in governance. All while insisting that they're discussing their "values", instead of complaining because they're Republicans and Obama was a Dem.

Do I need to tell you what happened next? I'll do it if you want.

Cliff notes? Trump arrives, and "miraculously", all their values disappear. Suddenly spending isn't a problem (my point that Trump made the Federal Gv. 66% larger in a laughable 4 years). Tea party disappears immediately. More socialism isn't a problem. Billions in cash handouts to farmers for no reason isn't a problem. The corruption they were livid about under Obama isn't a problem. Fannie and Freddie.....they were LIVID about them under Obama. Under Trump? Not a peep. And it goes on and on.

So what did I and other posters who took their complaints under Obama at face value do? We hammered them. This is a marketplace for ideas, and just a few months of Trump showed us that these posters aren't conservatives at all. They're partisans.....and will find excuses as to why what Trump did is fine. Or not a big deal. Or "you guys have TDS"....all while forgetting about all the "values" they claimed they had when Obama was in office.

Speaking for myself? I was REALLY disappointed to find this out the hard way. I took their critiques of Obama seriously....when it turns out that they would have been Obama's biggest fan, if all Obama did was run as a Republican.

That's the context guys. And this is why the fake conservatives ran away. They REFUSED to criticize Trump for doing the same stuff they lost their minds over when Obama did it. And they didn't like getting called out for being hypocrites. So they left.

if Hillary had won the election? No one would have known this. And the Republicans would have stayed here, and gleefully kept right on criticizing Hillary's little D.

Some poster here want to pretend that every new post in written in a vacuum. It's not. There's context here. And the actual conservatives left the building, my man. Why do you think I keep asking: what's the plan if you guys get in power to fix things, and help the working class, and pull power away from the globalist that they are claiming they despise?

You don't find it disturbing that not one supposed conservative can answer that question? I do. It sucks. Because it means it's all on the Dems to govern on the Federal level. The R's have plainly and clearly given up.

Edited a few mistakes...

[dislaxxic]

Maybe you have an explanation why so many posters are now former posters?

Easy answer, Cranky: all us libs at this forum do such a GREAT job of explaining why liberalism is the best way forward for our country and why the form of conservatism that Donald Trump has pushed the GOP into...well...just flat SUCKS! We're watching the implosion of conservativism in real time, right before our eyes. They have a serious fever that is unlikely to break anytime soon. Maybe once Orange Duce is behind bars and a couple of these whackadoodle SCOTUS justices get impeached...

If posters leave the forum, it is, no doubt, because their preferred political ideology has COMPLETELY failed them...and the country, and there is simply no defending what it has become. Come back when you can admit that and can engage in GENUINE political discourse...

ps: my cliff notes version of af's post doesn't hold a candle...WHAT HE SAID!

..

[Seacoaster(1)]

Great post a fan. Thanks.