Page 1465 of 1864

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 am
by SCLaxAttack
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:52 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am Does Biden have the balls to do it
No. Because it would mean yanking home loans, farm insurance, farm subsidies, and on and on and on.

Those people, in my experience, don't think that that's government assistance. Dems would never win another election if you pulled these handouts.
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am does he really want to end this pandemic?
Yes.
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am Or does he just like playing politics with the vaccine?
Like every other politician in the US? Of course.
First, he hasn’t “set the rules for the working folk”. The first cut was fed employees and contractors. Then companies with >100 employees. More knowledgeable people than I here can tell you the precise significant number of the population who work at companies with <100 employees who aren’t covered by those mandates. His employment directed vaccination requirement is targeted in small steps that are less unacceptable to those who think vaccination is an infringement on their right to not givva about others.

One could argue that employment correlates more with probability of contact with others than if you have a fed backed mortgage. He might as well mandate vaccines for anyone who wears blue shirts.

Full disclosure - it wouldn’t bother me one bit if this vaccine was mandated to all in accordance with appropriate age and health guidance. Social responsibility.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:15 am
by youthathletics
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 am
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:52 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am Does Biden have the balls to do it
No. Because it would mean yanking home loans, farm insurance, farm subsidies, and on and on and on.

Those people, in my experience, don't think that that's government assistance. Dems would never win another election if you pulled these handouts.
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am does he really want to end this pandemic?
Yes.
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 am Or does he just like playing politics with the vaccine?
Like every other politician in the US? Of course.
First, he hasn’t “set the rules for the working folk”. The first cut was fed employees and contractors. Then companies with >100 employees. More knowledgeable people than I here can tell you the precise significant number of the population who work at companies with <100 employees who aren’t covered by those mandates. His employment directed vaccination requirement is targeted in small steps that are less unacceptable to those who think vaccination is an infringement on their right to not givva about others.

One could argue that employment correlates more with probability of contact with others than if you have a fed backed mortgage. He might as well mandate vaccines for anyone who wears blue shirts.

Full disclosure - it wouldn’t bother me one bit if this vaccine was mandated to all in accordance with appropriate age and health guidance. Social responsibility.
You are also missing quite a large demo.....commercial real estate. The feds lease a Crap Ton of commercial real estate, which puts all those REal Estate firms on the hook. We are already receiving letters from them.

Wonder if SNAP recipients are also receiving this notice?

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:23 am
by tech37
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:45 am
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:20 pm
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:11 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:57 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:56 am
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:48 am You're getting way ahead of yourself here and it's a silly question at this time IMO. Not to mention an invitation to be sucked into the a fan vortex once again. No thanks.
I'm not getting ahead of myself, and I have no interest in a vortex.

I'm responding to your assertion "if we understand how this happened, right down to what occurred on a molecular level, this can be avoided in the future."

I'm simply pointing out that this statement is simply incorrect. We're dealing with China, not Germany. You're certainly welcome to ignore my point here.

tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:48 am Let's wait and see how things progress re the virus origin including the WHO's new investigation. I must admit, I'm cynical re the latter (not my fault).
And you just pointed out another problem. If WHO comes back and tells you that the virus couldn't have been made in a lab....are you going to believe them? No, right? So now what?

This is why I don't understand why you want an organization that you don't trust, to investigate a country you don't trust.....when if you don't like their conclusions, you're not going to believe them.

And we both know that China isn't going to do anything we say when it comes to lab work, or open air markets with all that weird uncooked food.

So you're stuck, in my opinion. No vortex required.
And that's indeed the point.
tech and others are hell-bent on only believing that it was developed in a lab in China...no other answer will satisfy them, no matter how valid.
Sounds just like your position on anything Trump or on anyone who doesn't necessarily like Trump but agrees with some of his admin's policies. Sounds familiar?

But of course you're wrong. If evidence surfaces (from any source) that proves lab-leak didn't occur and the consensus on that result includes those I do trust, certainly I'll agree.

Yup, there's the rub...none of those you 'trust' will ever 'trust' that it didn't happen in a lab.

They'll claim all sorts of reasons to not be able to 'trust' and you'll simply spew them forward.
Wrong. I'll discuss info I find plausible. I do have my own opinions based upon gut instincts as well. At this point I find it more plausible that there was a lab-leak rather than anything zoonotic re cause. If new evidence surfaces that points more toward zoonotic, I'll certainly consider it.

No, what you often do is spread misinformation, including egregious such, as if "plausible". That's been your pattern.

But hey, it'd be extraordinarily hard to produce 100% certainty of a naturally occurring source, rather than either a lab animal accident or an actual genetic effort in a lab. 100% certainty is virtually impossible. And it'll be always possible to claim that the govt of China simply isn't being honest, has hidden whatever evidence otherwise have refuted the contention it didn't happen in a lab.
"100% certainty" is not required for consensus. Presently, I would bet the majority of reasonable people (despite their political affiliations) lean toward lab-leak.

You would "bet"?? No, the present, significant consensus is that it's zoonotic, but that doesn't mean that there's not an open, and important, question about it having been from something engineered in a lab. Note, even from a lab it could have been zoonotic.
"significant consensus"...ha! Just what significant consensus are you citing? There a lot of very smart people not part of the corporate cabal you rely on for your world view. As I've said before, your loss not to consider.

But could it have been from something engineered?

The problem is, that if it was, we'd need China to say so. We're not going to be able to prove it without their support.

So, you're stuck with never believing otherwise. We get it.
BS

Why are you bringing up Trump?
Is this about Trump?
No, it's not about Trump and you're smarter than that. As I'm sure you realize, the Trump metaphor here describes perfectly your own inclination for entrenched thinking.

Nonsense. While we all have tendencies to become "entrenched" in our thinking, my antipathy for Trump and Trumpism is very clear-eyed; subsequent 'evidence" only reinforces that my early warnings about his character were spot-on, and similarly my worst nightmares about the authoritarian strain that's possible in America has gained currency in the right wing. But, boy would I have preferred to have been wrong.

You want to agree with "some of his policies"??? Go ahead and make the case for any specific policies you like, I may well agree with you on something. I've never had a problem with that sort of discussion.

If you, in the alternative, want to tell me, say, that he's an honest guy...well, we'll definitely differ. On that, I'm not open.
You truly are obsessed. I hope and pray Trump is not the 2024 nominee so that TDS-addled citizens of this country don't lose their sh!t anymore than they already have.

Ahh, you're just worried about "TDS-addled citizens" and their "lose their sh!t"??? Not that Trump is POS in every way and Trumpism is dangerous to democracy...got it. You want the Trumpism, but without folks losing their sh!t in response?

Do I have that right?

Let's just agree that Trump is bad for the country. You go ahead and get all twisted in the whys and wherefores. There's some significant consensus for you.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
by MDlaxfan76
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:23 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:45 am
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:20 pm
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:11 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:57 pm
a fan wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:56 am
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:48 am You're getting way ahead of yourself here and it's a silly question at this time IMO. Not to mention an invitation to be sucked into the a fan vortex once again. No thanks.
I'm not getting ahead of myself, and I have no interest in a vortex.

I'm responding to your assertion "if we understand how this happened, right down to what occurred on a molecular level, this can be avoided in the future."

I'm simply pointing out that this statement is simply incorrect. We're dealing with China, not Germany. You're certainly welcome to ignore my point here.

tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:48 am Let's wait and see how things progress re the virus origin including the WHO's new investigation. I must admit, I'm cynical re the latter (not my fault).
And you just pointed out another problem. If WHO comes back and tells you that the virus couldn't have been made in a lab....are you going to believe them? No, right? So now what?

This is why I don't understand why you want an organization that you don't trust, to investigate a country you don't trust.....when if you don't like their conclusions, you're not going to believe them.

And we both know that China isn't going to do anything we say when it comes to lab work, or open air markets with all that weird uncooked food.

So you're stuck, in my opinion. No vortex required.
And that's indeed the point.
tech and others are hell-bent on only believing that it was developed in a lab in China...no other answer will satisfy them, no matter how valid.
Sounds just like your position on anything Trump or on anyone who doesn't necessarily like Trump but agrees with some of his admin's policies. Sounds familiar?

But of course you're wrong. If evidence surfaces (from any source) that proves lab-leak didn't occur and the consensus on that result includes those I do trust, certainly I'll agree.

Yup, there's the rub...none of those you 'trust' will ever 'trust' that it didn't happen in a lab.

They'll claim all sorts of reasons to not be able to 'trust' and you'll simply spew them forward.
Wrong. I'll discuss info I find plausible. I do have my own opinions based upon gut instincts as well. At this point I find it more plausible that there was a lab-leak rather than anything zoonotic re cause. If new evidence surfaces that points more toward zoonotic, I'll certainly consider it.

No, what you often do is spread misinformation, including egregious such, as if "plausible". That's been your pattern.

But hey, it'd be extraordinarily hard to produce 100% certainty of a naturally occurring source, rather than either a lab animal accident or an actual genetic effort in a lab. 100% certainty is virtually impossible. And it'll be always possible to claim that the govt of China simply isn't being honest, has hidden whatever evidence otherwise have refuted the contention it didn't happen in a lab.
"100% certainty" is not required for consensus. Presently, I would bet the majority of reasonable people (despite their political affiliations) lean toward lab-leak.

You would "bet"?? No, the present, significant consensus is that it's zoonotic, but that doesn't mean that there's not an open, and important, question about it having been from something engineered in a lab. Note, even from a lab it could have been zoonotic.
"significant consensus"...ha! Just what significant consensus are you citing? There a lot of very smart people not part of the corporate cabal you rely on for your world view. As I've said before, your loss not to consider.

But could it have been from something engineered?

The problem is, that if it was, we'd need China to say so. We're not going to be able to prove it without their support.

So, you're stuck with never believing otherwise. We get it.
BS

Why are you bringing up Trump?
Is this about Trump?
No, it's not about Trump and you're smarter than that. As I'm sure you realize, the Trump metaphor here describes perfectly your own inclination for entrenched thinking.

Nonsense. While we all have tendencies to become "entrenched" in our thinking, my antipathy for Trump and Trumpism is very clear-eyed; subsequent 'evidence" only reinforces that my early warnings about his character were spot-on, and similarly my worst nightmares about the authoritarian strain that's possible in America has gained currency in the right wing. But, boy would I have preferred to have been wrong.

You want to agree with "some of his policies"??? Go ahead and make the case for any specific policies you like, I may well agree with you on something. I've never had a problem with that sort of discussion.

If you, in the alternative, want to tell me, say, that he's an honest guy...well, we'll definitely differ. On that, I'm not open.
You truly are obsessed. I hope and pray Trump is not the 2024 nominee so that TDS-addled citizens of this country don't lose their sh!t anymore than they already have.

Ahh, you're just worried about "TDS-addled citizens" and their "lose their sh!t"??? Not that Trump is POS in every way and Trumpism is dangerous to democracy...got it. You want the Trumpism, but without folks losing their sh!t in response?

Do I have that right?

Let's just agree that Trump is bad for the country. You go ahead and get all twisted in the whys and wherefores. There's some significant consensus for you.
You sound like the conversation I had with my dad back in the '70's discussing IQ and race; he was citing Shockley's work in the mid-'60's, which I had actually studied and knew was based on phonied data, and he angrily said "You know better than a Nobel scientist?"...I pointed out that his Nobel was in physics not genetics or IQ, and while obviously a very smart guy, he had clearly phonied his data to fit a preconceived racist narrative. Years later Pop admitted that he had been wrong to believe Shockley just because he was a very smart guy.

Being smart is not sufficient. Science demands a process of examination, testing and repeatability, before a hypothesis is accepted as a better description of reality than prior models.

So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.

On your response re Trump, you continue to be unwilling to address his rank dishonesty and you continue to be unwilling to address 'Trumpism'...it's not simply the individual that's the danger.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
by youthathletics
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:31 am
by MDlaxfan76
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.
Zoonotic, not zoonic.

Nope, engineered would include GoF, and the strong consensus is that it wasn't the result of such research. but that consensus doesn't 100% eliminate the possibility.

Zoonotic is from the animals themselves whether in the wild or captured, whether on a farm or a wet market or in lab cages.

My own view is that mere possibility of a lab leak, whether zoonotic or engineered, means that extreme attention needs to be placed on safety protocols...in all such labs.

Likewise, the handling of various animals known to carry potential pandemic scale viruses that might mutate and crossover to humans needs to be very careful, and possibly even banned except for research.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 am
by youthathletics
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:31 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.
Nope, engineered would include GoF, and the strong consensus is that it wasn't the result of such research. but that consensus doesn't 100% eliminate the possibility.

Zoonotic is from the animals themselves whether in the wild or captured, whether on a farm or a wet market or in lab cages.
So I was right....you don't know, as you stated in bold.

More to my point as noted in your last sentence, this can be done in a controlled manner in a lab.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:01 pm
by a fan
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:01 am US intel? They already published a one sheet saying that they know it wasn't bio warfare. Do you trust them?
I realize you're not accusing but please find any post I've made referring to what happened at Wuhan having anything to do with bio warfare. Since this began, my opinion was and remains that it was an accident, not intentional.
I cited US intel and their publicly released one sheet on the virus simply because they are the one of two credible (in my eyes) sources that have investigated the origin. It's them and WHO. I was simply asking if you trusted their conclusions.

We don't know if it was an accident, or if it was intentional (or if it came from an animal). Intentional seems awful unlikely, I'll grant you that.
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:01 am You have made it clear you don't care one way or the other, but objectively, do you trust them with this new investigation? Do you find it strange they would announce this new inquiry with the "last chance" qualifier to solve pandemic origin?
Of course I care that we do our best to find how this virus came to be! Just because I was trying to point that it's unlikely we will know, because (some) folks think it came to be in China, doesn't mean I don't want to know!

I was pointing out that you can't get the Chinese to do what the world wants, so why get all lathered up about it. We'll find out...but it may take years, or even decades. It sucks, but welcome to dealing with the Chinese. It why I told you that if this originated in Germany, we'd be all set...we'd find out in fairly short order what happened. But it didn't originate in Germany.

Do I trust WHO? I don't know the first thing about it. If top US scientists, and the world's experts agree on an origin? I'm accepting their findings, no question.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:07 pm
by jhu72
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:30 am
jhu72 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:20 am
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:45 pm "there's the rub" and "So there it is"

You dudes have everything so figured out... :roll:
... we have you figured out. :lol:
Ha ha good one. Re the virus strains discovered in Laos, can you explain why you're citing work that isn't peer reviewed as "fact"? Seriously, why do that?

Also, please explain how the discovery of these viruses changes the possibility of Wuhan lab-leak in any way?
... the peer review is very very unlikely to find a problem in the Pasteur Institute's sequencing of the bat viruses they discovered, which prove these viruses are the closest to the original human COVID, found to date! I am sure these viruses have been sequenced to the point where no error will be found in this area of their work.

The possibility of a Wuhan lab-leak still exists. It seems less likely however if multiple viruses are found running free in nature from a source that has in no way been tied to the lab. The bat virus closest to the original human virus has IRCC 7 fewer deviations from the human COVID virus than does the closest know Wuhan lab virus. You can hold out hope if you like, I would bet less on it today than I would have two months ago, and I was not betting heavily on the possibility two months ago.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:11 pm
by MDlaxfan76
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:31 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.
Nope, engineered would include GoF, and the strong consensus is that it wasn't the result of such research. but that consensus doesn't 100% eliminate the possibility.

Zoonotic is from the animals themselves whether in the wild or captured, whether on a farm or a wet market or in lab cages.
So I was right....you don't know, as you stated in bold.

More to my point as noted in your last sentence, this can be done in a controlled manner in a lab.
Of course it's "possible".

Every single post of mine says so, but that doesn't mean it is the likely source.
And those who know a heck of a lot more about this than I'd ever aspire to know have a strong consensus that it was zoonotic.
Absent definitive proof otherwise, I'll stick with that answer.

And I'm also clear that doesn't mean that paying serious attention to the risks associated with lab work isn't worthwhile. The mere possibility of such a lab leak is enough for me. Pay serious attention to safety protocols.

Same for animal handling, food processing, etc...serious risks.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 pm
by a fan
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 am Full disclosure - it wouldn’t bother me one bit if this vaccine was mandated to all in accordance with appropriate age and health guidance. Social responsibility.
Agree completely: are you on team America, or not?

It's not all take-----you have to give sometimes to be an American. This is one of those times.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:41 pm
by MDlaxfan76
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 pm
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 am Full disclosure - it wouldn’t bother me one bit if this vaccine was mandated to all in accordance with appropriate age and health guidance. Social responsibility.
Agree completely: are you on team America, or not?

It's not all take-----you have to give sometimes to be an American. This is one of those times.
I agree as well, but I don't think there's a direct mechanism for such currently under the law.

So, the levers that do exist are to mandate in order to have access to various publicly regulated services and opportunities.

And there are plenty of such that most people depend upon or find desirable to partake of to get to very high vaccination levels, boosters, etc.

But want to go live in the woods off the grid? That's your right.

Just don't ask for access to healthcare, air, train, or bus travel, to go a park, or a concert, or bar, or a stadium, or to go to the grocery store....plenty of others that have various forms of public regulation for the public good.

Live away from others, fine.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:17 pm
by tech37
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
You sound like the conversation I had with my dad back in the '70's discussing IQ and race; he was citing Shockley's work in the mid-'60's, which I had actually studied and knew was based on phonied data, and he angrily said "You know better than a Nobel scientist?"...I pointed out that his Nobel was in physics not genetics or IQ, and while obviously a very smart guy, he had clearly phonied his data to fit a preconceived racist narrative. Years later Pop admitted that he had been wrong to believe Shockley just because he was a very smart guy.

Being smart is not sufficient. Science demands a process of examination, testing and repeatability, before a hypothesis is accepted as a better description of reality than prior models.

So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.

On your response re Trump, you continue to be unwilling to address his rank dishonesty and you continue to be unwilling to address 'Trumpism'...it's not simply the individual that's the danger.
Sorry. I was just watching a long but fascinating podcast with an independent environmental journalist re Monsanto and the history of Agent Orange (dioxin) and Round Up (glyphosate) and the effects of those chemicals on the environment and human health. Hope you don't own any Bayer (Monsanto owner since 2018) stock.

Too bad you'd refuse to watch/listen. Oh well...

Interesting story but like your dad, don't you tend to side with the establishment perspective/slant? The established position is not always correct, right? Science is totally subjective and why peer review and consensus are so important, no?

That's why i have a real problem with statements like, "actual experts" and "significant" consensus. That stuff could not be more subjective. Your anecdotal story shows just that.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:27 pm
by youthathletics
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:11 pm
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:31 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.
Nope, engineered would include GoF, and the strong consensus is that it wasn't the result of such research. but that consensus doesn't 100% eliminate the possibility.

Zoonotic is from the animals themselves whether in the wild or captured, whether on a farm or a wet market or in lab cages.
So I was right....you don't know, as you stated in bold.

More to my point as noted in your last sentence, this can be done in a controlled manner in a lab.
Of course it's "possible".

Every single post of mine says so, but that doesn't mean it is the likely source.
And those who know a heck of a lot more about this than I'd ever aspire to know have a strong consensus that it was zoonotic.
Absent definitive proof otherwise, I'll stick with that answer.

And I'm also clear that doesn't mean that paying serious attention to the risks associated with lab work isn't worthwhile. The mere possibility of such a lab leak is enough for me. Pay serious attention to safety protocols.

Same for animal handling, food processing, etc...serious risks.
Exactly my point......zoonotic can happen in a lab. But you seem to be using the term zoonotic as if that can only take place outside of a lab; hence we I said earlier...it can be both and the same (in a lab AND zoonotic)

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:27 pm
by tech37
jhu72 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:07 pm
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:30 am
jhu72 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:20 am
tech37 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:45 pm "there's the rub" and "So there it is"

You dudes have everything so figured out... :roll:
... we have you figured out. :lol:
Ha ha good one. Re the virus strains discovered in Laos, can you explain why you're citing work that isn't peer reviewed as "fact"? Seriously, why do that?

Also, please explain how the discovery of these viruses changes the possibility of Wuhan lab-leak in any way?
... the peer review is very very unlikely to find a problem in the Pasteur Institute's sequencing of the bat viruses they discovered, which prove these viruses are the closest to the original human COVID, found to date! I am sure these viruses have been sequenced to the point where no error will be found in this area of their work.

The possibility of a Wuhan lab-leak still exists. It seems less likely however if multiple viruses are found running free in nature from a source that has in no way been tied to the lab. The bat virus closest to the original human virus has IRCC 7 fewer deviations from the human COVID virus than does the closest know Wuhan lab virus. You can hold out hope if you like, I would bet less on it today than I would have two months ago, and I was not betting heavily on the possibility two months ago.
Thank you. One more question for you...and not meant to be an attempt at gotcha in any way.

Why do organizations like Nature and Pasteur Inst. publish non peer reviewed work? If the work does not pass peer review isn't it not only wrong but could be construed as misinformation?

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:48 pm
by MDlaxfan76
tech37 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:17 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
You sound like the conversation I had with my dad back in the '70's discussing IQ and race; he was citing Shockley's work in the mid-'60's, which I had actually studied and knew was based on phonied data, and he angrily said "You know better than a Nobel scientist?"...I pointed out that his Nobel was in physics not genetics or IQ, and while obviously a very smart guy, he had clearly phonied his data to fit a preconceived racist narrative. Years later Pop admitted that he had been wrong to believe Shockley just because he was a very smart guy.

Being smart is not sufficient. Science demands a process of examination, testing and repeatability, before a hypothesis is accepted as a better description of reality than prior models.

So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.

On your response re Trump, you continue to be unwilling to address his rank dishonesty and you continue to be unwilling to address 'Trumpism'...it's not simply the individual that's the danger.
Sorry. I was just watching a long but fascinating podcast with an independent environmental journalist re Monsanto and the history of Agent Orange (dioxin) and Round Up (glyphosate) and the effects of those chemicals on the environment and human health. Hope you don't own any Bayer (Monsanto owner since 2018) stock.

Too bad you'd refuse to watch/listen. Oh well...

Interesting story but like your dad, don't you tend to side with the establishment perspective/slant? The established position is not always correct, right? Science is totally subjective and why peer review and consensus are so important, no?

That's why i have a real problem with statements like, "actual experts" and "significant" consensus. That stuff could not be more subjective. Your anecdotal story shows just that.
"subjective"???

Not how I see it and have multiple times explained.

Hypotheses need to be examined, tested, and repeated, and not simply by the original 'scientist'. Only though that process can a hypothesis gain long term credibility as the best explication for reality.

The error of some is to assume that someone simply 'smart' asserting a hypothesis, and claiming data in support, is necessarily to be trusted. Nope, the hypothesis needs to be examined, tested, repeated by others.

In Shockley's case, it really didn't take that long to discover that he'd actually phonied his purported data so as to fit his asserted hypothesis.

But, unfortunately, when someone "smart" makes such an assertion and it fits within other biases (in this case racist biases) it can be all too easily accepted by the non-scientist. In Shockley's case, one major early question mark was why a physicist was making scientific assertions in a field so far from his own, what motivated him to wander over to an entirely different field of science? And yup, he'd had long held racist biases...that he'd actually intentionally phonied his data was more of a shocker than that he'd simply made errors, but it fit with the intensity of his biases. "smart" is not character.

And no, Shockley's "study" was certainly not "establishment" within that field of science. There was outcry immediately, as his data did not line up with the other work that had been done in the area, so the question immediately was 'why' does this not line up? Turns out it was because he'd phonied the data.

But if you mean that it 'fit' with the white supremacist narrative that has so long plagued this country, and are calling that 'establishment', I'd agree that such thinking did support a lot of that racist legacy and those who had, from positions of power, benefited from it...but it wasn't establishment' in the scientific world.

As you know I'm not a big podcast guy, but glad you found it interesting...I don't think it would be at all surprising that the Monsanto folks knew how awful some of their products were and hid that...much like the Dupont story and Teflon...and so many other stories of capitalism run amok as a result of greed and a lack of regulation. Did you imagine I'd be pro- Round Up and Agent Orange???

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:52 pm
by MDlaxfan76
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:27 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:11 pm
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:31 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:08 am
So, I really don't care how many 'smart' folks who think it might have been engineered in a lab. I'm only interested in what the folks who are actually experts in this area of science find through their examination and analysis of the available genetic information...and their strong consensus is that it was not engineered, far more likely to have been zoonotic (though that doesn't mean it wasn't from an animal in a lab being studied).

But that doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a lab engineered virus. It's possible, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to have confidence that China would tell the world if had been. They are a quite untrustworthy regime, though can be predicted with some confidence to act in their own self interest.
Are you intentionally using the words 'engineered' and 'genetic information' as a way to escape? Then flip it and say "far more likely to be zoonic"

Why do you believe it can not not be both and the same? It is my understanding that GoF does this very thing....mimic and simulate zoonic and other viruses like influenza, I believe it is called antigenic shift and antigenic drift.
Nope, engineered would include GoF, and the strong consensus is that it wasn't the result of such research. but that consensus doesn't 100% eliminate the possibility.

Zoonotic is from the animals themselves whether in the wild or captured, whether on a farm or a wet market or in lab cages.
So I was right....you don't know, as you stated in bold.

More to my point as noted in your last sentence, this can be done in a controlled manner in a lab.
Of course it's "possible".

Every single post of mine says so, but that doesn't mean it is the likely source.
And those who know a heck of a lot more about this than I'd ever aspire to know have a strong consensus that it was zoonotic.
Absent definitive proof otherwise, I'll stick with that answer.

And I'm also clear that doesn't mean that paying serious attention to the risks associated with lab work isn't worthwhile. The mere possibility of such a lab leak is enough for me. Pay serious attention to safety protocols.

Same for animal handling, food processing, etc...serious risks.
Exactly my point......zoonotic can happen in a lab. But you seem to be using the term zoonotic as if that can only take place outside of a lab; hence we I said earlier...it can be both and the same (in a lab AND zoonotic)
No, I have multiple times repeated that a zoonotic transmission can happen between an animal and another animal (human) wherever that contact is made, including animals in lab cages. Through their feces, saliva, air transmission, lots of ways.

None of that is "engineered".
Big, big difference.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:07 pm
by tech37
Latest from Rising and Intercept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cf3FOt3Ieo

NIH BAT CORONAVIRUS GRANT REPORT WAS SUBMITTED MORE THAN TWO YEARS LATE
The unusual timing of a bat coronavirus grant report suggests that an earlier version may have been revised.

Mara HvistendahlSharon LernerMara Hvistendahl, Sharon Lerner
October 1 2021, 1:11 p.m.

A PROGRESS REPORT detailing controversial U.S.-funded research into bat coronaviruses in China was filed more than two years after it was due and long after the corresponding grant had concluded. The U.S.-based nonprofit the EcoHealth Alliance submitted the report to its funder, the National Institutes of Health, in September 2020, while the group was engulfed in controversy surrounding its work with partners in China. The Intercept obtained the report, along with the grant proposal and other documents, through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

Scientists consulted by The Intercept described the late date as highly unusual and said it merited an explanation, given the controversy surrounding the EcoHealth Alliance’s work at the time that the report was submitted. The scientists spoke under the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the topic with the NIH, the world’s leading funder of biomedical research.

The annual report described the group’s work from June 2017 to May 2018, which involved creating new viruses using different parts of existing bat coronaviruses and inserting them into humanized mice in a lab in Wuhan, China. The work was overseen by the NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is headed by Anthony Fauci.

Neither the NIH nor the EcoHealth Alliance offered an explanation for the date of the report or responded to questions from The Intercept about whether another version of the report had been submitted on time and, if so, in what ways that version may have been altered.

The Intercept is seeking any missing progress reports, among other documents, through ongoing litigation against the NIH.

Related
Leaked Grant Proposal Details High-Risk Coronavirus Research
The agency has been criticized for withholding information that might relate to the origins of the coronavirus pandemic, which is now responsible for more than 4.5 million deaths around the world. “NIH has a public responsibility to be fully transparent on why it gave funding to the EcoHealth Alliance, whether it considered the potential of a possible accidental leak of dangerous bat viruses, and the ethics of approving the study,” said Lawrence Gostin, a professor at Georgetown University’s school of law and director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law. “Overall, it is important to fund good basic research on bat viruses, but the project has been shrouded in uncertainty and lacks full transparency.”

The progress report and other documents were released by the NIH over a year after The Intercept and others requested them. “What [the NIH] really needs to do is not just react to FOIA requests. They need to be proactive and say, ‘OK, here’s the process, and here’s the outcome.’ And they haven’t done that,” said Gregory Koblentz, director of the Biodefense Graduate Program at George Mason University. “That just raises questions about why they’re dragging their heels. They should have provided all relevant information months ago.”

The EcoHealth Alliance and its longtime partner the Wuhan Institute of Virology have come under intense scrutiny in the search for the pandemic’s origins. The two groups are at the center of the lab-origin hypothesis, the idea that the coronavirus could have emerged through a lab accident, the collection and storage of thousands of bat coronavirus samples, or through divisive research that makes viruses more transmissible in order to study how they evolve.

There has been no shortage of unsubstantiated ideas in circulation about SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes the respiratory illness Covid-19, several of which continue to be used as political wedges by former President Donald Trump and the far right. But EcoHealth Alliance President Peter Daszak helped organize scientists to tar any discussion of a possible lab origin, even if it was science-based, as a conspiracy theory.

In February 2020, the medical journal The Lancet published a statement decrying the spread of “rumours and misinformation” around the origins of the pandemic. “We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin,” read the letter. Emails later obtained by U.S. Right to Know showed that Daszak had orchestrated the effort. Daszak has also served on two international committees tasked with investigating the origins of the pandemic, despite having a clear conflict of interest. (Last weekend, the Wall Street Journal reported that one of these committees, a task force convened by The Lancet, would be disbanded.)

For months, Daszak continued to push the notion that a lab origin was preposterous. “They’re coming at this with the belief system that there’s a cabal of mysterious international folks who are trying to kill people,” he said in an online seminar in October 2020, of those who believe it’s possible that the virus that causes Covid-19 emerged from a lab. “They come at it with a belief system. So logic jumps out the window.”

The Coronavirus Crisis
Read Our Complete Coverage
The Coronavirus Crisis
The unusually dated EcoHealth Alliance progress report adds to a string of missing, incomplete, or disappeared information that could be relevant to the origins of the pandemic.

The report describes work done in year four of the five-year, $3.1 million NIH grant “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence.” It was due in April 2018. The version released by the NIH was submitted over two years later, after The Intercept had filed a public records request seeking the bat coronavirus and other NIH grants to the EcoHealth Alliance.

The NIH sends out automatic reminders ahead of key due dates and makes the distribution of new funding contingent upon receipt of the previous years’ annual reports. According to an NIH instruction manual, submission dates are automatically generated, meaning that the date could not be a typo.

Adding to the evidence that the annual update was submitted in 2020 are references to studies that were published after 2018, when the update was due. NIH progress reports include a section in which researchers list any papers that have been published or accepted for publication. In the EcoHealth Alliance progress report, the section lists papers published in 2019 and 2020.

Many researchers say the experiment that involved infecting humanized mice with altered bat coronaviruses described in the annual report qualifies as “gain-of-function research of concern.” None of the viruses described in the experiment are related to SARS-CoV-2 closely enough to have evolved into it. But scientists said the odd submission date raises questions about whether information in an earlier draft of the report had been altered — or omitted — amid controversy over the EcoHealth Alliance’s work in Wuhan.

Early on, several groups, media outlets, and individuals requested the grant documents and communications surrounding them, an effort that apparently irked Daszak. “Conspiracy-theory outlets and politically motivated organizations have made Freedom of Information Act requests on our grants and all of our letters and e-mails to the NIH,” he told Nature in August 2020. “We don’t think it’s fair that we should have to reveal everything we do.”

The Intercept requested the grant documents from the NIH on September 3 of that year. The anomalous progress report was submitted less than two weeks later, on September 16.

The documents released to The Intercept are also missing a year-five progress report, covering the crucial period of June 2018 to May 2019, which was due in September 2019, according to NIH guidelines. Scientists said that NIH program officers sometimes overlook reports for the final reporting period, but taken together with the odd date on the year-four report, the omission raises questions that the agency should answer.

Federal funding documents are routinely released under the Freedom of Information Act. In this case, public interest in the origins of the pandemic should have led to a timely and full release of documents, transparency experts say. “The presumption of disclosure is all the more crucial when dealing with documents that are squarely in the public interest,” said Gunita Singh, a staff attorney with the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. “And records about how the pandemic may have originated and where our taxpayer dollars have been spent are clearly worthy of public observation and scrutiny and debate.”

“Records about how the pandemic may have originated and where our taxpayer dollars have been spent are clearly worthy of public observation and scrutiny and debate.”
The origins of the pandemic remain hotly debated. In August, President Joe Biden announced that a three-month inquiry into the matter by U.S. intelligence agencies was inconclusive. Many scientists lean toward a natural origin, but in recent months an increasing number of prominent researchers have gone on record as saying that a lab origin deserves thorough investigation.

The progress report is just one of many missing puzzle pieces that could shed light on the question. In June, evolutionary biologist Jesse Bloom reported that key data from Wuhan had been deleted from an NIH database, a move allowed by NIH rules but that is nonetheless unusual. From a Google Cloud server, he recovered 13 partial viral sequences collected from people in the city in the early days of the pandemic. These added to evidence that the coronavirus was circulating in the city long before the December 2019 outbreak at the city’s Huanan seafood market, which was a major focus of the recent WHO report on the origins of the pandemic. It turned out that researchers from Wuhan University had emailed the NIH in June 2020 to request that the sequences be deleted.

Then in July, after the Washington Post reported on other discrepancies in early WHO data, the WHO changed the virus sequence IDs associated with three early patients described in the joint report.

There are also important gaps in what we know about the history of RaTG13, a relative of SARS-CoV-2, which was sequenced and written about by scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Last summer, Shi Zhengli, director of the Center for Emerging Infectious Diseases of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, admitted to Science magazine that RaTG13 was a renamed version of a virus found in a Chinese mineshaft where miners fell ill in 2012. But that admission only came following pressure from independent scientists.

Also unresolved are questions about revisions made to public databases of viruses that infect pangolins and about a database that the Wuhan Institute of Virology took offline in September 2019, claiming that it had been hacked.

In 2019, the NIH renewed the EcoHealth Alliance bat coronavirus grant for a second five-year period. The Trump administration suspended funding in April 2020. (The NIH reinstated the grant in July 2020, under strict terms that Daszak said his group could not meet.) It is unclear whether the EcoHealth Alliance would have been required to file a progress report for the final year of the grant, given that it was terminated.

Correction: October 3, 2021

A previous version of this article incorrectly stated that Peter Daszak did not sign a February 2020 letter in The Lancet. Although Daszak had originally suggested keeping his name off the letter, in the end he did in fact sign it.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:19 pm
by MDlaxfan76
:lol: :lol: :roll:

Absolutely classic: "Fauci LIES On Gain Of Function Research CONFIRMED By NIH, EcoHealth Failed To Report Findings"

The key sentences of this article, though say the opposite:
Many researchers say the experiment that involved infecting humanized mice with altered bat coronaviruses described in the annual report qualifies as “gain-of-function research of concern.” None of the viruses described in the experiment are related to SARS-CoV-2 closely enough to have evolved into it.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:47 pm
by youthathletics