LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

Agree.

Also, people don't take into consideration that this award has been given out since 2001. It has been given to 17 attackman and 4 midfielders. Quite a few poles have made the top 5 list but none have ever won. This is clearly an offensive award, although it's stated as a "best overall player" award.

He'll win the Schmeisser, and based on history- would've lost the tewey if he made the top 5. So, what's the difference?

Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

this is Silly. If you have the luxury of a pole that can shut down Kirst, you beat Cornell. You have pole to neutralize Kavanaugh, ND is not very scare. Shutting down the engine of an offense can have just as big of an affect as that engine scoring 5 pts.

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:40 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

this is Silly. If you have the luxury of a pole that can shut down Kirst, you beat Cornell. You have pole to neutralize Kavanaugh, ND is not very scare. Shutting down the engine of an offense can have just as big of an affect as that engine scoring 5 pts.

No defenseman is getting this award. Sorry - ain’t happening. Get over it.

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:49 am

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:40 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

this is Silly. If you have the luxury of a pole that can shut down Kirst, you beat Cornell. You have pole to neutralize Kavanaugh, ND is not very scare. Shutting down the engine of an offense can have just as big of an affect as that engine scoring 5 pts.

No defenseman is getting this award. Sorry - ain’t happening. Get over it.

That wasn't his point. His point was that a shutdown Defensive player like Adler, who shuts down the opposing teams best offensive weapon, can have just as much if not more of an impact on the outcome of a game, as a prolific goal scorer.

Their were many Cornell games this year where Kirst lit up the other team, and I still felt in many of those games that Adler was the best player on the field.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:49 am

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:40 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

this is Silly. If you have the luxury of a pole that can shut down Kirst, you beat Cornell. You have pole to neutralize Kavanaugh, ND is not very scare. Shutting down the engine of an offense can have just as big of an affect as that engine scoring 5 pts.

No defenseman is getting this award. Sorry - ain’t happening. Get over it.

That wasn't his point. His point was that a shutdown Defensive player like Adler, who shuts down the opposing teams best offensive weapon, can have just as much if not more of an impact on the outcome of a game, as a prolific goal scorer.

Their were many Cornell games this year where Kirst lit up the other team, and I still felt in many of those games that Adler was the best player on the field.

Gobigred
Joewillie78

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

I'd agree with just about all of this. I'd also think the Dordevic pick may have been influenced by the committee wanting another team, Georgetown, represented. The other candidates being discussed here -- Adler, Dickson, Cormier -- are from the same school as another candidate so I'd think the committee would prefer to have another school represented.

Dickson's production and shooting accuracy have been stellar, but I wonder if they picked Shellenberger over him because Shellenberger is viewed as a more complete player in the qb role whereas Dickson is viewed more as a finisher.

If Tucker Durkin didn't get any Tewaaraton buzz the years he literally shut down every single attackman he faced including Lyle Thompson then I'm not sure Adler or any other defenseman will again. It just is what it is. Absolutely fine with Dordevic being on there. 57 goals on 35% shooting for a Final Four caliber team — he's not going to win but that's good enough to be a finalist this year.

coda wrote
Shutting down the engine of an offense can have just as big of an affect as that engine scoring 5 pts.

See Dave Pietramala on Gary Gait in the '89 opener when Hopkins beat Cuse 14-13.
He pretty much shut down Gary on Memorial Day too but Cuse squeaked by with a
13-12 win. The one loss in three years was largely attributable to that D man.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:20 am If Tucker Durkin didn't get any Tewaaraton buzz the years he literally shut down every single attackman he faced including Lyle Thompson then I'm not sure Adler or any other defenseman will again. It just is what it is. Absolutely fine with Dordevic being on there. 57 goals on 35% shooting for a Final Four caliber team — he's not going to win but that's good enough to be a finalist this year.

This is not really the point people are trying to make. Durkin should have been on the list. The award's mission is "honoring the most outstanding men’s college players". This is very similar to Heisman discussions, which has essentially become a QB award. The Tewaaraton award has been given out 21 times and 19 attackmen have won it (Lyle and Myles split it) and 3 midfielders. No midfielder has won since 2009. It has essentially become an award for the best attackman in the country. That is not the intend mission of the committee according to the website. In both cases I think the argument against the selection biases are 100% correct, but I doubt it gains any traction.

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:16 am

Creasedive wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 8:36 am

DMac wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 7:37 am Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

Dordevic wasn't even the best player on his own attack line for the first half of the season. Even now I would put a lot of money on Adler to completely erase Dordevic if they were matched up on each other.

laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:54 am

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

ACC was far and away the best conference. Big 10 was the second best. Ivy was clear #3 based on the season. ACC had 60% of their conference receive at-large bids and those 3 received a top 3 seeding. Big 10 had 66.7% of the league make the tournament and 50% of the conference receive at-large bids, Ivy had 43% of their conference make the tournament and 28.7% receive at-large bids. Ivy's highest seed was an 8 seed, both the ACC and Big 10 had 3 teams seeded inside of 8

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

He's got everything you'd want as an attacker. Which is why I was surprised when they played ND, he was only trying to bull dodge/overpower Chris Fake...who is all power. He didn't try to use speed to go by or separate for his outside shot. Consequently, he got shut down in that game (1 goal on 4 shots). Was really surprising. Otherwise he's been excellent.

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 12:14 pm

laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:54 am

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

ACC was far and away the best conference. Big 10 was the second best. Ivy was clear #3 based on the season. ACC had 60% of their conference receive at-large bids and those 3 received a top 3 seeding. Big 10 had 66.7% of the league make the tournament and 50% of the conference receive at-large bids, Ivy had 43% of their conference make the tournament and 28.7% receive at-large bids. Ivy's highest seed was an 8 seed, both the ACC and Big 10 had 3 teams seeded inside of 8

ACC isn't a "conference" in lacrosse. Cornell played Yale twice and Marquette which beat Penn State. Cornell was in the top 5 on Massey for most of the season and is #6 on Massey today. Cornell is sufficiently well-ranked for its players to command respect here & by the Tewaaraton Foundation.

laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:23 pm

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 12:14 pm

laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:54 am

Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:32 am Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

ACC was far and away the best conference. Big 10 was the second best. Ivy was clear #3 based on the season. ACC had 60% of their conference receive at-large bids and those 3 received a top 3 seeding. Big 10 had 66.7% of the league make the tournament and 50% of the conference receive at-large bids, Ivy had 43% of their conference make the tournament and 28.7% receive at-large bids. Ivy's highest seed was an 8 seed, both the ACC and Big 10 had 3 teams seeded inside of 8

ACC isn't a "conference" in lacrosse. Cornell played Yale twice and Marquette which beat Penn State. Cornell was in the top 5 on Massey for most of the season and is #6 on Massey today. Cornell is sufficiently well-ranked for its players to command respect here & by the Tewaaraton Foundation.

the acc is absolutely a conference in lacrosse.

i agree it's weird for anyone to believe cornell or ivies don't carry sufficient competition. plus this topic is about an individual award, and i'm pretty sure who players play already factors in to selection. not to mention all the stats cited (and a basis for those tapped) are piled up vs all sorts of competition.

coda wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:42 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:20 am If Tucker Durkin didn't get any Tewaaraton buzz the years he literally shut down every single attackman he faced including Lyle Thompson then I'm not sure Adler or any other defenseman will again. It just is what it is. Absolutely fine with Dordevic being on there. 57 goals on 35% shooting for a Final Four caliber team — he's not going to win but that's good enough to be a finalist this year.

This is not really the point people are trying to make. Durkin should have been on the list. The award's mission is "honoring the most outstanding men’s college players". This is very similar to Heisman discussions, which has essentially become a QB award. The Tewaaraton award has been given out 21 times and 19 attackmen have won it (Lyle and Myles split it) and 3 midfielders. No midfielder has won since 2009. It has essentially become an award for the best attackman in the country. That is not the intend mission of the committee according to the website. In both cases I think the argument against the selection biases are 100% correct, but I doubt it gains any traction.

Exactly.

It's not that we don't understand what is happening with the selections, it's that it's clearly not congruent with the stated objective.

A suggestion was made to simply say "most outstanding offensive player" if that's the actual intent. (Or do what they claim).

IMO, it's unusual, but not impossible, for the most outstanding player in a season to be a defensive player. Could be a shutdown defender, erasing the best offensive player on the opposing teams and with lots of CT's, GB's, etc, or a goaltender who so outperforms as to be the difference maker again and again and again. Going into the tournament certainly one of the 5 potentially to be the player who is so outstanding as to be the key for his team beating the very best opponents. Lots of good examples of such being at a minimum in the final 5.

And then let the chips fall where they may.

Though not a Cornell guy, I'd love to see Adler match up on O'Neill in the quarters and stymie him; gotta shut down Boehm first.

But the desire to have no more than one from each team probably fouled that up.

On the Shellenberger vs Dickson, the reality is that the former QB's that offense, sets the tone and pace, controls the flow. Lots of 'hockey assists'. Not his best year, for sure, but I think that's why he's there vs Dickson. But I'd have had Dickson over Dordevic, who is certainly good and has a hot hand recently, but I just don't think that his season's performance puts him in the top 5.