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Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 10:29 am
by laxer12
Tyrrell should've been a finalist over Colson and/or Moreno.

Colson played on an extremely subpar Maryland team and I'm of the opinion that the only reason Moreno had such good save percentage numbers is because of that amazing defense in front of her.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 11:36 am
by njbill
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:12 am I'll be shocked if Charlotte North doesn't win the Tewaaraton now. I read some of the ridiculous posts alleging North's ineffectiveness in yesterday's game. First off--are they even in the final four without North's 96 goals and 170 draw controls? Secondly--if you just want to make it about yesterday's performance--even better for North's case:

North had two goals and an assist for 3 points, figuring in 3 of the teams 11 goals. You work out the percentage. Only teammate Jenn Medjid had more goals or points than North. Only two members of the Tar Heels had more goals and points than North. Charlotte had two electrifying goals at key times during the game yesterday. Her first goal, which developed because of the deftest ground ball pickup running at near top speed I've ever seen, and then the spectacular goal following to tie the game at 4. North then set up Medjid a little over a minute later for the go ahead goal--a lead they would not share or relinquish for the remainder of the game.

Then the silly draw control argument. Fine--North technically didn't win any draw controls? How about the 7 the team got? She had nothing to do with that? She gets no credit for telling her teammates where to go and winning the draw in that direction? Or getting in the way of an opponent so a teammate could grab the loose ball?

And to top it off--all these nit-picky critiques on North for a game BC won. That's usually only done when a team loses. Please.

So who should the award be given to instead--Scane? Scane is nowhere near being in the same category as North because of the draw control statistic. North 170 Scane 12. And for goals: North 96 Scane 98. Ortega? 82 goals 0 DC's. Moreno? Colson? Stop it already.

Oh, and just for good measure, North now owns the NCAA Tournament all time record for goals scored which she broke a few days ago, and she still has one game to play.

If the committee gives it to anyone but North--they'll get it tragically wrong.
As the author of some of those "ridiculous" posts, let me respond.

I 100% disagree with you about North's performance yesterday. I'm actually quite surprised at your comments as you usually study things pretty carefully. I made my case in some detail yesterday. I guess I have to do it again.

My comments were about her game yesterday. Yesterday only. If we were talking about her overall chances for winning the Tewaaraton, then, sure, her season as a whole is relevant. But my comments were about her play against UNC. Yesterday was "even better" for North's case? Huh? No. It hurt her chances.

She shot two for eight. 25%. Against a goalie who had a bad day. If you think that was a good shooting performance, there is nothing I can say. It wasn't. Even our friend "Mr. North" hasn't said she had a good day yesterday.

She has now twice been shut down by Emma Trenchard. Does that disqualify North from winning the Tewaaraton? No, but it doesn't help her case. It hurts it.

You put more stock in "electrifying" goals than I do. A goal is a goal. Counts the same.

As to the "silly" draw control argument, posters have argued quite a bit that her DC process should be factored into her Tewaaraton candidacy. Rightly so. Well, yesterday she came up goose eggs in that department. In the biggest game of her life. The seven her team got? What about the fact that she got ZERO herself? What about the 16 the other team got on her watch? You like to look up stats. How many games this year did she get no DCs? Generally she's good at drawing to herself, but wasn't able to do that at all yesterday. Zippo. When I rewatched the game, I was looking at shots, not DCs, so I didn't make a list of whether North should get any "credit" for any of the seven draws her team won. But my general impression is there were a lot of draws won yesterday in mad scrambles involving the circle players, the centers, and sometimes even players over the restraining lines. In those scrambles, the center got little to no credit for directing the ball to one of her teammates so she could collect the draw. There is no way North is entitled to even some credit for all of the seven draws BC got. Maybe some credit for some of them. But that's it. All in all her draw performance yesterday was not good and way, way below her normal level of play.

And then there were her turnovers. The box score has her with one. I counted at least two on the replay. And at least two of her shots were saved, which effectively were turnovers.

Where did she rank in terms of individual performances on her team? Well down the list. Behind Hall. Behind Medjid. Behind Smith. Behind Urbank (6 DCs). Behind local girl Mossman. Don't know the defenders well enough by name to list the ones that played well yesterday, but there are probably two or three who played better than North. So the Tewaaraton finalist was outplayed by a significant majority of her own teammates yesterday.

My take is North's play yesterday (when viewed in isolation) hurt her chances for winning the T. They were helped because the other finalists didn't have strong games either. And they were helped a lot by the fact that she's now the only one still alive. Of the four finalists who played yesterday, only Moreno had a worse game than North. Ortega didn't have a good game (1 for 4 shooting, two assists), but it was slightly better (or less worse) than North's. (If you want to argue about that, I could see calling their games pretty similar.) Scane had the best day of the four, but even her game was by her standards only pretty good (4-9, 3 assists). She is the only one of the four who didn't hurt her candidacy yesterday.

I actually think the race is still up for grabs between Scane, North, and Ortega. The latter two had clunkers yesterday so their respective poor performances may cancel each other out. Was Scane's better game enough to put her over the top? Maybe. North has a chance tomorrow to redeem herself. If she has a balls out game that plays a significant role in her team winning its first Natty, that will certainly help her. But if she has another poor game, perhaps the committee with disregard the Final Four for all three candidates and just look at the regular season. If they do, I think the race is wide open between these three.

It is always a mystery what weight the committee gives to the Final Four as opposed to the regular season. I can think of one instance in which the winner's team lost in the finals and she didn't have a good game.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:07 pm
by Cletus
Couple of other thoughts:

- This is a game you want to point to as a negative for Charlotte North's chance at the Tewwy?? (see YouTube highlights below)

- Note: that's The Real Emma Trenchard covering North on both goals.

As ol' TL would say--that is all.
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:12 am I'll be shocked if Charlotte North doesn't win the Tewaaraton now. I read some of the ridiculous posts alleging North's ineffectiveness in yesterday's game. First off--are they even in the final four without North's 96 goals and 170 draw controls? Secondly--if you just want to make it about yesterday's performance--even better for North's case:

North had two goals and an assist for 3 points, figuring in 3 of the teams 11 goals. You work out the percentage. Only teammate Jenn Medjid had more goals or points than North. Only two members of the Tar Heels had more goals and points than North. Charlotte had two electrifying goals at key times during the game yesterday. Her first goal, which developed because of the deftest ground ball pickup running at near top speed I've ever seen, and then the spectacular goal following to tie the game at 4. North then set up Medjid a little over a minute later for the go ahead goal--a lead they would not share or relinquish for the remainder of the game.

Then the silly draw control argument. Fine--North technically didn't win any draw controls? How about the 7 the team got? She had nothing to do with that? She gets no credit for telling her teammates where to go and winning the draw in that direction? Or getting in the way of an opponent so a teammate could grab the loose ball?

And to top it off--all these nit-picky critiques on North for a game BC won. That's usually only done when a team loses. Please.

So who should the award be given to instead--Scane? Scane is nowhere near being in the same category as North because of the draw control statistic. North 170 Scane 12. And for goals: North 96 Scane 98. Ortega? 82 goals 0 DC's. Moreno? Colson? Stop it already.

Oh, and just for good measure, North now owns the NCAA Tournament all time record for goals scored which she broke a few days ago, and she still has one game to play.

If the committee gives it to anyone but North--they'll get it tragically wrong.


Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:27 pm
by njbill
That was a great play which consumed three or four seconds of a 60 minute game.

I assume you don’t intend that to be your entire rebuttal. :lol:

Edit: didn’t initially notice that your clip went on after the first goal. Don’t think the rest adds anything of material substance to your case.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:02 pm
by wlaxphan20
I read the comment about North's effectiveness yesterday more as an example of Trenchard's abilities & highlighting the decision to leave her off the list as a Tewaaraton finalist for Colson..NOT necessarily as a criticism or North

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:06 pm
by Lax247
wlaxphan20 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:02 pm I read the comment about North's effectiveness yesterday more as an example of Trenchard's abilities & highlighting the decision to leave her off the list as a Tewaaraton finalist for Colson..NOT necessarily as a criticism or North
Agree with above : 2/8 and no DC and at least 2 TO.
But agree if she has a monster game or even a slightly above average one even if they lose- she wins it .

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:14 pm
by wlaxphan20
Something I thought was mildly interesting - IF BC loses to Cuse tomorrow that means NONE of the Tewaaraton finalists are on the national championship team. Has this every happened before?

The award is for the season's body of work and weight on the NCAA tournament is a mystery, just thought it was a fun stat

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm
by 8meterPA
good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:30 pm
by Lax247
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Ortega also has 110 points...
Scane has like 100,000...

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
by Cletus
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:37 pm
by wlaxphan20
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
8meter I do not mean to speak for you - but I believe the argument was simply for Tyrrell being a finalist.. Not to take North's place on the list, or that North is not deserving of the spot at all.

Unfortunately there are only 5 finalists and there are going to be snubs every year, especially as players develop over a season. Lucky we have so much talent to help grow the game.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm
by 8meterPA
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
They both had zero yesterday...

You do realize that Tyrrell isn't on the draw circle right?

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:00 pm
by 8meterPA
wlaxphan20 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:37 pm
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
8meter I do not mean to speak for you - but I believe the argument was simply for Tyrrell being a finalist.. Not to take North's place on the list, or that North is not deserving of the spot at all.

Unfortunately there are only 5 finalists and there are going to be snubs every year, especially as players develop over a season. Lucky we have so much talent to help grow the game.
Correct, argument I'm making is if u are considering North why not Tyrrell? Both deserving, no?

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:02 pm
by Cletus
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
They both had zero yesterday...

You do realize that Tyrrell isn't on the draw circle right?
Precisely. North is more valuable to her team because of her dominating presence on the draw.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:03 pm
by Cletus
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm They both had zero yesterday...
and they don't base the Tewwy on one game--so, so what?

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:06 pm
by Cletus
wlaxphan20 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:37 pm the argument was simply for Tyrrell being a finalist.. Not to take North's place on the list, or that North is not deserving of the spot at all.

Unfortunately there are only 5 finalists and there are going to be snubs every year, especially as players develop over a season. Lucky we have so much talent to help grow the game.
I agree. And she should have been there instead of Colson--who was a sentimental finalist for the committee.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:22 pm
by 8meterPA
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 3:02 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
They both had zero yesterday...

You do realize that Tyrrell isn't on the draw circle right?
Precisely. North is more valuable to her team because of her dominating presence on the draw.
You literally just argued against yourself - CN had zero draws yesterday, zero. Hardly a dominating presence in the biggest game of the year. So therefore she added no value to her team according to your logic.. And even with zero draw controls, BC won the game. How did that happen?

In of themselves, DC's are a garbage stat...especially since they changed up the circle.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:08 pm
by Cletus
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 3:22 pm
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 3:02 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 pm
Cletus wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 pm
8meterPA wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 2:24 pm good point which is why is mentioned that it's a shame that Tyrrell isn't a finalist, she should be. She quietly has 110 points and is arguably the most valuable player on any team (North has 108 - a very loud 108 points).
Draw Controls - North 170 Tyrrell 0

...anything else? 😉
They both had zero yesterday...

You do realize that Tyrrell isn't on the draw circle right?
Precisely. North is more valuable to her team because of her dominating presence on the draw.
You literally just argued against yourself - CN had zero draws yesterday, zero. Hardly a dominating presence in the biggest game of the year. So therefore she added no value to her team according to your logic.. And even with zero draw controls, BC won the game. How did that happen?

In of themselves, DC's are a garbage stat...especially since they changed up the circle.
Again--they don't give out the Tewwy based on one game.

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:54 pm
by Can Opener
Can Opener wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:25 am
Can Opener wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:02 am Here are a few stats from the top four Tewaaraton finalists' performances over the weekend.

North - Team wins over Fairfield (19-6) and Temple (21-11)
15G 0A 71.4%SH 0TO 2CT 22DC 65.5%TeamDC

Scane - Team win over Denver 19-4
8G 3A 57%SH 2TO 0CT 1DC

Ortega - Team win over JMU 14-9
4G 0A 44%SH 2TO 0CT 0DC

Moreno - Team win over JMU 14-9
9SV 9GA 50%SV

That is my order on who had the best weekend making her case for the Tewy. North vs. Scane is really close, but I think North gets the edge because of DCs, shot % and lack of TOs. As a goalie, Moreno really needs to do something extraordinary to pass CN and IS. Having said that, her path to the Tewy (hate to say it) probably involves JO continuing to put up so-so numbers and then standing on her head in the championship game against NU. So in that sense, it was a good start for TM.

If you need more evidence on why CN had the better weekend, check out the highlights below. Yes, Izzy scores a lot of goals, but I have never seen her do anything like this:
https://twitter.com/BCwlax/status/13939 ... 08548?s=20
https://twitter.com/BCwlax/status/13940 ... 47587?s=20
https://twitter.com/BCwlax/status/13932 ... 91810?s=20
Here are some updated numbers from the weekend.

North - Team win over ND 21-10
8G 1A 73%SH 2TO 0CT 7DC 73%TeamDC

Ortega - Team win over SB 14-11
4G 3A 57%SH 2TO 1CT 0DC

Scane - Team win over Duke 22-10
5G 2A 50%SH 6TO 1CT 1DC

Moreno Team win over SB 14-11
8SV 11GA 42%SV

That is my order on who had the best weekend. North set the NCAA record for tournament goals with one or two more games to go. She is averaging 7.7 GPG and shooting 72% for the tournament. I don't follow NU closely enough to understand why IS consistently has a lower shooting % than CN and JO. That is part of why I ranked her below JO this week. She also did not help her case with 6 TOs and 2 yellow cards yesterday. Again, North leading her team to domination on DCs is a big plus. I suppose you could make a case for JO having a better day based on more assists in a tight game, but goals, DCs and shot % cinch it for CN. Moreno will need a huge final four to have a chance.
The Tewaaraton committee is comprised of coaches. Ain't a coach in America who wouldn't take yesterday's outcome for North and her team. The other three finalists lost yesterday. North played against the best defense and the best goalie in America on a team that hadn't lost in two years. The fact that she hit a pipe and that Moreno made a couple of nice saves on her means absolutely zippo in the big pictures of the team win and North's overall performance this season. As Uncle Joe would say, "C'mon man."

Having said that, there's no way to sugar coat the DC performance yesterday. As you all know, I am a massive fan of North's success on draw controls. That has been a big factor in BC's success this year. Until yesterday, the team had not lost the DC battle all year, including against some of the top DC specialists in the country. Hey, even TD, Trevor and Nardella have off days sometimes. It happens. I've always viewed CN's DC prowess to be icing on the cake. I've been saying for weeks that if it's roughly a tie on offensive performance between North and Scane, the committee has to give it to North because of her historic DC performance.

JO and TM had nice seasons, but they have no chance. Right now Scane has 98 goals and North has 96. Scane has taken a mind-boggling 194 shots and has significantly more turnovers than North. North has needed only 152 shots to produce 96 goals. This competition is over. As much as the #countless crowd wishes otherwise, North has already won the Tewaaraton. Goals + shooting % + DCs + team going further in the tournament = 2 Tewys for BC in 3 seasons. Giddy up!!!

Just to be consistent, I have updated the stats I have provided after each tournament round.

North - Team win over UNC 11-10
2G 1A 25%SH 1TO 0CT 0DC 30%TeamDC
Tournament totals:
25G 2A 63%SH 3TO 2CT 60%TeamDC

Scane - Team loss to Syracuse 13-21
4G 3A 44%SH 3TO 0CT 1DC
Tournament totals:
17G 8A 52%SH 11TO 1CT

Ortega - Team loss to BC 10-11
1G 2A 25%SH 2TO 0CT 0DC

Moreno Team loss to BC 10-11
8SV 11GA 42%SV

Re: 2021 Tewaaraton watch list released

Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:30 pm
by Cletus
Can Opener wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:54 pm Just to be consistent, I have updated the stats I have provided after each tournament round.

North - Team win over UNC 11-10
2G 1A 25%SH 1TO 0CT 0DC 30%TeamDC
Tournament totals:
25G 2A 63%SH 3TO 2CT 60%TeamDC

Scane - Team loss to Syracuse 13-21
4G 3A 44%SH 3TO 0CT 1DC
Tournament totals:
17G 8A 52%SH 11TO 1CT

Ortega - Team loss to BC 10-11
1G 2A 25%SH 2TO 0CT 0DC

Moreno Team loss to BC 10-11
8SV 11GA 42%SV
Do you have tourney totals for JO?