Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:40 pm Club ball contributed little. But it’s a hot bed area. Town programs get pretty good coaching on the way up.
See it's the opposite for where I am in South NJ. It's not far from a hotbed area (right outside Philly), but man the coaching at the club level is mostly dads, many who didn't even play lacrosse as kids. And even the public high school coaches are a mixed bag - some are great, but many of them are just the football coach who is coaching lacrosse in the spring (and you can imagine what that end product looks like...).
So you play travel because that's where you get coached by people who are lacrosse coaches. Coaching helps develop the kids.
There's a point where the dad coaching gets ridiculous - yeah fundamentals are super important, but there's only so much you can get from watching Youtube or other coaches. After a kids been playing lacrosse for awhile, they need tips and hints from someone who's been there before and more advanced coaching than just fundamentals.
For example, at where my son is, the past two years he has learnt very little from the amateur coaches in the town rec experience. They're too busy trying to coach basic fundamentals to the other kids (like throwing and catching, let alone use of an offhand). He does get something out of it, of course - he gets reps, gets live game experience, and gets to play with his friends. And he can apply what he's learned in the summer and really push it on the rec scene. But his real improvement comes in the summer - better coaching, better competition, etc.
I'd imagine in a real hotbed area, where you have actual dedicated lacrosse coaches...and coaches who played at some point, it's a completely different story as you mention above.
Yep. It takes a while to build up the knowledge base. The dynamic for non hot bed is different. In the developed areas, kids are getting pretty good coaching from 4th grade through 8th grade and then its the high school program. The club coaching is not much of a factor. Not enough practice days to be meaningful. The clubs games are a measuring stick. Not sure it makes a player better other games may force a player to realize his deficiencies and then works on them. If club lacrosse were more like club soccer, by that I mean at least 2 to 3 practices a week for 3 or 4 moths at a time, I would have a different opinion on the value added by coaching. Just hard to do much with 6-7 practices over a 4 -5 week period.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm
by Unknown Participant
I played at a NESCAC school, hockey and lacrosse, I loved, loved being part of those teams and the experience. So I wanted/want my boys to experience being part of a college team, but really only if they did too. Oldest son did 2.5 years of DII lax and gave it up last year. When he told me he was giving it up, he was concerned I'd be angry. I wasn't, a little sad that one of the best phases of my life (watching my kids compete) was coming to an end. Youngest son, who was no. 1 goalie recruit of one of the two DIII schools that can't or won't guarantee admission, was not admitted by that school. He is attending my alma mater and will try and make the team, but since he is a goalie, may not. His grades and test scores got him admitted, not lacrosse.
We did the club circuit for years in a non hotbed area. I knew my sons were not going DI (unlike my daughter, a DI caliber runner), but as others have written, I enjoyed watching and traveling with the boys, some really good times, e.g, steak eating contests at Golden Corral, watching Miracle over and over, and I would do it again in a heart beat. My biggest beef was that the coaches were just going through the motions, doing the minimum. Basically, warm up, some form of line drills, maybe a 1v1 drill and then 10v10 full field. All that for $800. In my youngest son's spring club season after his junior year, I told the club coach it wasn't worth $800 to have him stand around all practice and split time at games. He told me to get lost and gave me back my money. I would have gladly paid the money for some good coaching. Son was still AA and a POY nominee without club ball.
Another story,
In 2016, old coaching staff left my kids' public school for a prep school 20 miles away. After 2017 season, one of our better sophomores, whose parents had high lacrosse aspirations (they are divorced and each is an idiot in his/her own right), followed the coach to the new school for academic reasons (a much better school) and lacrosse recruiting opportunities. Alas, after leaving all his friends and shelling out 20K per at prep school to (i) get into a better college and (ii) be recruited, that kid is going to Florida State (an ok but not great school and does not have a lax team).
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:11 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
This was a remarkable documentary. This girl is one of the best female players I have ever seen. Father was a nut....just a remarkable player.
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:40 pm Club ball contributed little. But it’s a hot bed area. Town programs get pretty good coaching on the way up.
See it's the opposite for where I am in South NJ. It's not far from a hotbed area (right outside Philly), but man the coaching at the club level is mostly dads, many who didn't even play lacrosse as kids. And even the public high school coaches are a mixed bag - some are great, but many of them are just the football coach who is coaching lacrosse in the spring (and you can imagine what that end product looks like...).
So you play travel because that's where you get coached by people who are lacrosse coaches. Coaching helps develop the kids.
There's a point where the dad coaching gets ridiculous - yeah fundamentals are super important, but there's only so much you can get from watching Youtube or other coaches. After a kids been playing lacrosse for awhile, they need tips and hints from someone who's been there before and more advanced coaching than just fundamentals.
For example, at where my son is, the past two years he has learnt very little from the amateur coaches in the town rec experience. They're too busy trying to coach basic fundamentals to the other kids (like throwing and catching, let alone use of an offhand). He does get something out of it, of course - he gets reps, gets live game experience, and gets to play with his friends. And he can apply what he's learned in the summer and really push it on the rec scene. But his real improvement comes in the summer - better coaching, better competition, etc.
I'd imagine in a real hotbed area, where you have actual dedicated lacrosse coaches...and coaches who played at some point, it's a completely different story as you mention above.
Yep. It takes a while to build up the knowledge base. The dynamic for non hot bed is different. In the developed areas, kids are getting pretty good coaching from 4th grade through 8th grade and then its the high school program. The club coaching is not much of a factor. Not enough practice days to be meaningful. The clubs games are a measuring stick. Not sure it makes a player better other games may force a player to realize his deficiencies and then works on them. If club lacrosse were more like club soccer, by that I mean at least 2 to 3 practices a week for 3 or 4 moths at a time, I would have a different opinion on the value added by coaching. Just hard to do much with 6-7 practices over a 4 -5 week period.
I would disagree, although the experience from club to club is certainly different, so I'm really just conveying my experience versus yours. My son played for a club that held several practices a week in the summer preparing for weekend tournaments, played a fall tournament schedule with several practices a week, and held evening, indoor workouts in the winter if you wanted to participate in those. The summer/fall practices were primarily drills, with a 15 minute scrimmage at the end. Positional coaching for at least half of the practice, followed by full team competition drills, then the scrimmage. Winter workouts almost exclusively positional drills, with some competition at the end.
The coaches were college assistants, very demanding of attention and effort from the kids, and ran drills that required the brain to work as well as the hands and feet. I believe that those practices and workouts were primarily responsible for the kids on that team becoming not just good players, but smart players, the kind of kids who know where they're supposed to be on the field, and always compete hard. In short: hotbed kids.
If you've ever gone to a prospect day at a Middlebury, or a Holy Cross, a Fairfield - those kids are all there. The pain in the ass, smart, competitive hotbed kids. It's why the NESCAC is so tough, it's filled with those kids - a little underersized, maybe, not quite fast enough for D1: but, the boys can play the game at the highest level.
Nothing against non-hotbed kids at all, I've seen some great ones.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:51 am
by Typical Lax Dad
I thought I mentioned more practice would be better? If you are getting 2-3 practices a week for 3-4 months at a time that is a good thing. We have some “good clubs” around here. They don’t practice as much as your club. Summer lax is usually 5-6 weeks. If you are getting more than that with more practices, that’s a good too.
I am a big fan of winter fundamental clinics. Particularly shooting. Not a fan of fall lacrosse.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:50 am
by middleAgedBear
This is all very interesting to me, my son is almost 10 and we were recently pitched by the local club that he'd been going to for weekly drills/smallball in the winter/spring to join the summer travel team. I asked my son, he said "NO!" He wanted to hang out with his buddies and have a break from sports for the summer. I have noticed that many of his friends started playing club soccer a few years ago, and now they're starting to play club lacrosse. Very type-A town, very type-A parents. I know some of the guys who run the clubs, former D1 studs, etc. But it really does seem a bit gross to me, a money grab, holding the golden carrot of elite college admittance/financing over eager parents' heads. One of my friends sons was a stud in hs, played club, started on his D1 college team as a freshman. If this kid wasn't the 'full boat' kid, I don't know who would be. His dad told me he got about 10k/year, which is nice, but when the total freight is 50-60k it's not a game changer. As one other poster mentioned, I don't think many parents understand the reality of 12 scholarships for 45 kids on the typical D1 team.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:13 am
by palaxoff
Has anyone ever seen a mission statement for a club? Do they post the coaches credentials? Been thinking it seems like the purpose of clubs is to get recruited, not train them. Considering that there is 850 to 950 spots open D1 doesn't seem like it is a great investment. Add another 3500 to 4000 for D 2 and D 3 still not great numbers.
As for coaching, it is really all over the place from my perceptive as a former college player, youth coach and official. I have seen some amazing coaching, for example John Haus has had some of the best coached youth team I have ever seen, I have had to swallow my whistle listening to some coaches wondering if they have any clue what they are saying, and I seen too many high school and college players on the sideline putting in minimal effort.
I am very thankful as a parent, there was very little of this whole club thing around when my son was young. I think it was Cockeysville for youth and Top 200, Champ Camp, and a fall tournament near Towson high School. I'd say the vast majority of the kids I coached were multi sport athletes and playing in tournaments wasn't that bit a burden.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:29 am
by JBFortunato
palaxoff wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:13 am
Has anyone ever seen a mission statement for a club? Do they post the coaches credentials? Been thinking it seems like the purpose of clubs is to get recruited, not train them. Considering that there is 850 to 950 spots open D1 doesn't seem like it is a great investment. Add another 3500 to 4000 for D 2 and D 3 still not great numbers.
As for coaching, it is really all over the place from my perceptive as a former college player, youth coach and official. I have seen some amazing coaching, for example John Haus has had some of the best coached youth team I have ever seen, I have had to swallow my whistle listening to some coaches wondering if they have any clue what they are saying, and I seen too many high school and college players on the sideline putting in minimal effort.
I am very thankful as a parent, there was very little of this whole club thing around when my son was young. I think it was Cockeysville for youth and Top 200, Champ Camp, and a fall tournament near Towson high School. I'd say the vast majority of the kids I coached were multi sport athletes and playing in tournaments wasn't that bit a burden.
John Haus coached my son at an IL showcase event a few years ago. Agreed, he's an excellent coach and a really nice guy.
Fairfield and Marquette picked up amazing head coaches in this offseason as well.
As for the club experience, I was happy that it was available to my son. He loved lacrosse, wanted to play it as much as possible, and without the club he would not have been able to get on a field and learn and compete nearly as much during high school as he did.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:38 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Unknown Participant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm
I played at a NESCAC school, hockey and lacrosse, I loved, loved being part of those teams and the experience. So I wanted/want my boys to experience being part of a college team, but really only if they did too. Oldest son did 2.5 years of DII lax and gave it up last year. When he told me he was giving it up, he was concerned I'd be angry. I wasn't, a little sad that one of the best phases of my life (watching my kids compete) was coming to an end. Youngest son, who was no. 1 goalie recruit of one of the two DIII schools that can't or won't guarantee admission, was not admitted by that school. He is attending my alma mater and will try and make the team, but since he is a goalie, may not. His grades and test scores got him admitted, not lacrosse.
We did the club circuit for years in a non hotbed area. I knew my sons were not going DI (unlike my daughter, a DI caliber runner), but as others have written, I enjoyed watching and traveling with the boys, some really good times, e.g, steak eating contests at Golden Corral, watching Miracle over and over, and I would do it again in a heart beat. My biggest beef was that the coaches were just going through the motions, doing the minimum. Basically, warm up, some form of line drills, maybe a 1v1 drill and then 10v10 full field. All that for $800. In my youngest son's spring club season after his junior year, I told the club coach it wasn't worth $800 to have him stand around all practice and split time at games. He told me to get lost and gave me back my money. I would have gladly paid the money for some good coaching. Son was still AA and a POY nominee without club ball.
Another story,
In 2016, old coaching staff left my kids' public school for a prep school 20 miles away. After 2017 season, one of our better sophomores, whose parents had high lacrosse aspirations (they are divorced and each is an idiot in his/her own right), followed the coach to the new school for academic reasons (a much better school) and lacrosse recruiting opportunities. Alas, after leaving all his friends and shelling out 20K per at prep school to (i) get into a better college and (ii) be recruited, that kid is going to Florida State (an ok but not great school and does not have a lax team).
To each his own, but....Golden corral? I didn’t think NESCAC alums were even allowed in those germ pits. Couldn’t you have found a ground round or something? Perhaps a dirty Chinese Buffett?
Unknown Participant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm
I played at a NESCAC school, hockey and lacrosse, I loved, loved being part of those teams and the experience. So I wanted/want my boys to experience being part of a college team, but really only if they did too. Oldest son did 2.5 years of DII lax and gave it up last year. When he told me he was giving it up, he was concerned I'd be angry. I wasn't, a little sad that one of the best phases of my life (watching my kids compete) was coming to an end. Youngest son, who was no. 1 goalie recruit of one of the two DIII schools that can't or won't guarantee admission, was not admitted by that school. He is attending my alma mater and will try and make the team, but since he is a goalie, may not. His grades and test scores got him admitted, not lacrosse.
We did the club circuit for years in a non hotbed area. I knew my sons were not going DI (unlike my daughter, a DI caliber runner), but as others have written, I enjoyed watching and traveling with the boys, some really good times, e.g, steak eating contests at Golden Corral, watching Miracle over and over, and I would do it again in a heart beat. My biggest beef was that the coaches were just going through the motions, doing the minimum. Basically, warm up, some form of line drills, maybe a 1v1 drill and then 10v10 full field. All that for $800. In my youngest son's spring club season after his junior year, I told the club coach it wasn't worth $800 to have him stand around all practice and split time at games. He told me to get lost and gave me back my money. I would have gladly paid the money for some good coaching. Son was still AA and a POY nominee without club ball.
Another story,
In 2016, old coaching staff left my kids' public school for a prep school 20 miles away. After 2017 season, one of our better sophomores, whose parents had high lacrosse aspirations (they are divorced and each is an idiot in his/her own right), followed the coach to the new school for academic reasons (a much better school) and lacrosse recruiting opportunities. Alas, after leaving all his friends and shelling out 20K per at prep school to (i) get into a better college and (ii) be recruited, that kid is going to Florida State (an ok but not great school and does not have a lax team).
To each his own, but....Golden corral? I didn’t think NESCAC alums were even allowed in those germ pits. Couldn’t you have found a ground round or something? Perhaps a dirty Chinese Buffett?
Ponderosa, Geneva, what you are looking for is The Ponderosa.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:26 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Club Lacrosse in and of itself is not a bad thing. Like many clubs in many sports some are better than others. My son had a good club experience but he got through right before it got crazy. He played for fun. The recruiting was going to happen and it actually started a year before he prepared. He didn’t have a highlight video until he was committed. We were that clueless.
Unknown Participant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm
I played at a NESCAC school, hockey and lacrosse, I loved, loved being part of those teams and the experience. So I wanted/want my boys to experience being part of a college team, but really only if they did too. Oldest son did 2.5 years of DII lax and gave it up last year. When he told me he was giving it up, he was concerned I'd be angry. I wasn't, a little sad that one of the best phases of my life (watching my kids compete) was coming to an end. Youngest son, who was no. 1 goalie recruit of one of the two DIII schools that can't or won't guarantee admission, was not admitted by that school. He is attending my alma mater and will try and make the team, but since he is a goalie, may not. His grades and test scores got him admitted, not lacrosse.
We did the club circuit for years in a non hotbed area. I knew my sons were not going DI (unlike my daughter, a DI caliber runner), but as others have written, I enjoyed watching and traveling with the boys, some really good times, e.g, steak eating contests at Golden Corral, watching Miracle over and over, and I would do it again in a heart beat. My biggest beef was that the coaches were just going through the motions, doing the minimum. Basically, warm up, some form of line drills, maybe a 1v1 drill and then 10v10 full field. All that for $800. In my youngest son's spring club season after his junior year, I told the club coach it wasn't worth $800 to have him stand around all practice and split time at games. He told me to get lost and gave me back my money. I would have gladly paid the money for some good coaching. Son was still AA and a POY nominee without club ball.
Another story,
In 2016, old coaching staff left my kids' public school for a prep school 20 miles away. After 2017 season, one of our better sophomores, whose parents had high lacrosse aspirations (they are divorced and each is an idiot in his/her own right), followed the coach to the new school for academic reasons (a much better school) and lacrosse recruiting opportunities. Alas, after leaving all his friends and shelling out 20K per at prep school to (i) get into a better college and (ii) be recruited, that kid is going to Florida State (an ok but not great school and does not have a lax team).
To each his own, but....Golden corral? I didn’t think NESCAC alums were even allowed in those germ pits. Couldn’t you have found a ground round or something? Perhaps a dirty Chinese Buffett?
Ponderosa, Geneva, what you are looking for is The Ponderosa.
There is a Ponderosa up rye 5&20 in Geneva. Remember liking it when I was very young. Now I wonder if the meatballs in brown gravy is some covert military experiment like when they were testing LSD on soldiers.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:29 pm
by OCanada
Atlantic has an article on sports equality etc.
Couple of stats. Number of participants in HS FB has fallen five straight years.
Number of participants in lacrosse is falling.
For first time number of students has increased but participation numbers are down.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:27 am
by Farfromgeneva
Why like move and sweat and stuff when esports are the jam! I mean discomfort, injury, compromise, teamwork. That’s all lame old person stuff I don’t have time for in my safe space.
Unknown Participant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm
I played at a NESCAC school, hockey and lacrosse, I loved, loved being part of those teams and the experience. So I wanted/want my boys to experience being part of a college team, but really only if they did too. Oldest son did 2.5 years of DII lax and gave it up last year. When he told me he was giving it up, he was concerned I'd be angry. I wasn't, a little sad that one of the best phases of my life (watching my kids compete) was coming to an end. Youngest son, who was no. 1 goalie recruit of one of the two DIII schools that can't or won't guarantee admission, was not admitted by that school. He is attending my alma mater and will try and make the team, but since he is a goalie, may not. His grades and test scores got him admitted, not lacrosse.
We did the club circuit for years in a non hotbed area. I knew my sons were not going DI (unlike my daughter, a DI caliber runner), but as others have written, I enjoyed watching and traveling with the boys, some really good times, e.g, steak eating contests at Golden Corral, watching Miracle over and over, and I would do it again in a heart beat. My biggest beef was that the coaches were just going through the motions, doing the minimum. Basically, warm up, some form of line drills, maybe a 1v1 drill and then 10v10 full field. All that for $800. In my youngest son's spring club season after his junior year, I told the club coach it wasn't worth $800 to have him stand around all practice and split time at games. He told me to get lost and gave me back my money. I would have gladly paid the money for some good coaching. Son was still AA and a POY nominee without club ball.
Another story,
In 2016, old coaching staff left my kids' public school for a prep school 20 miles away. After 2017 season, one of our better sophomores, whose parents had high lacrosse aspirations (they are divorced and each is an idiot in his/her own right), followed the coach to the new school for academic reasons (a much better school) and lacrosse recruiting opportunities. Alas, after leaving all his friends and shelling out 20K per at prep school to (i) get into a better college and (ii) be recruited, that kid is going to Florida State (an ok but not great school and does not have a lax team).
To each his own, but....Golden corral? I didn’t think NESCAC alums were even allowed in those germ pits. Couldn’t you have found a ground round or something? Perhaps a dirty Chinese Buffett?
Ponderosa, Geneva, what you are looking for is The Ponderosa.
There is a Ponderosa up rye 5&20 in Geneva. Remember liking it when I was very young. Now I wonder if the meatballs in brown gravy is some covert military experiment like when they were testing LSD on soldiers.
Ha, good points, all, but while at swamp/jungle phase back at Eglin AFB in winter 1988 and my 5th and 6th weeks of starvation rations, I would construct these elaborate food fantasies in my mind where I would fantasize about basically eating every single thing in a Golden Corral buffet line. So, perhaps I attribute better qualities to it than I should.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:53 pm
by Farfromgeneva
I had Buffalo Wild Wings for dinner last night so nobody to really talk about good tastes. Will try anything once including a KFC Buffett a little south of Greenville just off I85....
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:36 pm
by faircornell
I don't know what the right place is to post this, but there's a new Dr Pepper ad that features lacrosse in the middle of it. Perhaps someone adept at such things might post it. I will also try to figure out how.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:28 pm
by DU-fan
I saw it too. It seemed like the parents were disappointed because their son was focused on lacrosse instead of college football. Kind of like the people on fanlax on the opening weekend of college football
It is good to see lacrosse getting some attention today, even if it was teasing the sport.
Re: Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:34 pm
by DU-fan
Here is the commercial:
Go to about 27 seconds in. The parents are devastated that their son is more interested in lacrosse than college football. Their son retorts with "It is the fastest growing sport in America!"
