Re: Tiers in addition to Polls
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:38 am
Same Party, Different House
https://fanlax.com/forum/
Welp—every party needs a pooper.DMac wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:44 am Not a polls guy, mean pretty much jack to me.
Lotta discussion for nothing, I just like the games one at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMeskvDHKgo
If I were to sit down and do this I'd probably have to add a tier or two or make subdivisions for tiersDr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 amBeat who they were supposed to beat...that is Loyola....if you recall, Cuse was #4 and Loyola was #6. So a 1 goal loss to the #4 team is their only mark. Yes, they played a lot of subs in less tough games, but they still beat who they were supposed to. Beat ranked Penn, Princeton, Florida, and NR Penn St....Its not a stretch that they will end the season 16-1 with that one "good" loss.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 amIt’s certainly debatable. My rationale is that both Loyola and Princeton have underachieved in games at certain points. Up to this point, Duke and Denver have beaten the teams they were supposed to beat. It’s not an exact science but I prefer the fluidity of the tiers system.Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:42 amI still dont see Duke or Denver ahead of Loyola (or Princeton).OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am Tier 1 - NC, BC.
Tier 2 - NU, Syracuse, Duke, Denver, Stony Brook.
Tier 3 - Loyola, Princeton, Rutgers, JMU, Maryland, Florida, Colorado, Stanford, USC.
Tier 4 - Michigan, Virginia, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Army, Ohio St, Penn St, UMass, Vandy, UConn, Jacksonville, Navy, Richmond, JHU, Temple, St Joe’s.
Tier 5 - The rest
OTOH, Duke's quality wins are Penn, ND. Tight wins against teams they should have beat relatively easily - Liberty (8-7), Pitt (15-14).
Duke's SOS is 34th, Loyola 17th. https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-women/
So my opinion is that if you want to tier and you think Duke is in Tier 2, then Loyola is as well.
Yes! Please do.wlaxphan20 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:50 pmIf I were to sit down and do this I'd probably have to add a tier or two or make subdivisions for tiersDr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 amBeat who they were supposed to beat...that is Loyola....if you recall, Cuse was #4 and Loyola was #6. So a 1 goal loss to the #4 team is their only mark. Yes, they played a lot of subs in less tough games, but they still beat who they were supposed to. Beat ranked Penn, Princeton, Florida, and NR Penn St....Its not a stretch that they will end the season 16-1 with that one "good" loss.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 amIt’s certainly debatable. My rationale is that both Loyola and Princeton have underachieved in games at certain points. Up to this point, Duke and Denver have beaten the teams they were supposed to beat. It’s not an exact science but I prefer the fluidity of the tiers system.Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:42 amI still dont see Duke or Denver ahead of Loyola (or Princeton).OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am Tier 1 - NC, BC.
Tier 2 - NU, Syracuse, Duke, Denver, Stony Brook.
Tier 3 - Loyola, Princeton, Rutgers, JMU, Maryland, Florida, Colorado, Stanford, USC.
Tier 4 - Michigan, Virginia, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Army, Ohio St, Penn St, UMass, Vandy, UConn, Jacksonville, Navy, Richmond, JHU, Temple, St Joe’s.
Tier 5 - The rest
OTOH, Duke's quality wins are Penn, ND. Tight wins against teams they should have beat relatively easily - Liberty (8-7), Pitt (15-14).
Duke's SOS is 34th, Loyola 17th. https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-women/
So my opinion is that if you want to tier and you think Duke is in Tier 2, then Loyola is as well.
What about 25 tiers with one team per tier?wlaxphan20 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:50 pmIf I were to sit down and do this I'd probably have to add a tier or two or make subdivisions for tiersDr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 amBeat who they were supposed to beat...that is Loyola....if you recall, Cuse was #4 and Loyola was #6. So a 1 goal loss to the #4 team is their only mark. Yes, they played a lot of subs in less tough games, but they still beat who they were supposed to. Beat ranked Penn, Princeton, Florida, and NR Penn St....Its not a stretch that they will end the season 16-1 with that one "good" loss.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 amIt’s certainly debatable. My rationale is that both Loyola and Princeton have underachieved in games at certain points. Up to this point, Duke and Denver have beaten the teams they were supposed to beat. It’s not an exact science but I prefer the fluidity of the tiers system.Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:42 amI still dont see Duke or Denver ahead of Loyola (or Princeton).OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am Tier 1 - NC, BC.
Tier 2 - NU, Syracuse, Duke, Denver, Stony Brook.
Tier 3 - Loyola, Princeton, Rutgers, JMU, Maryland, Florida, Colorado, Stanford, USC.
Tier 4 - Michigan, Virginia, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Army, Ohio St, Penn St, UMass, Vandy, UConn, Jacksonville, Navy, Richmond, JHU, Temple, St Joe’s.
Tier 5 - The rest
OTOH, Duke's quality wins are Penn, ND. Tight wins against teams they should have beat relatively easily - Liberty (8-7), Pitt (15-14).
Duke's SOS is 34th, Loyola 17th. https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-women/
So my opinion is that if you want to tier and you think Duke is in Tier 2, then Loyola is as well.
Knowing myself, that’s probably how it would end up. Full circlecltlax wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:37 pmWhat about 25 tiers with one team per tier?wlaxphan20 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:50 pmIf I were to sit down and do this I'd probably have to add a tier or two or make subdivisions for tiersDr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 amBeat who they were supposed to beat...that is Loyola....if you recall, Cuse was #4 and Loyola was #6. So a 1 goal loss to the #4 team is their only mark. Yes, they played a lot of subs in less tough games, but they still beat who they were supposed to. Beat ranked Penn, Princeton, Florida, and NR Penn St....Its not a stretch that they will end the season 16-1 with that one "good" loss.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 amIt’s certainly debatable. My rationale is that both Loyola and Princeton have underachieved in games at certain points. Up to this point, Duke and Denver have beaten the teams they were supposed to beat. It’s not an exact science but I prefer the fluidity of the tiers system.Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:42 amI still dont see Duke or Denver ahead of Loyola (or Princeton).OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am Tier 1 - NC, BC.
Tier 2 - NU, Syracuse, Duke, Denver, Stony Brook.
Tier 3 - Loyola, Princeton, Rutgers, JMU, Maryland, Florida, Colorado, Stanford, USC.
Tier 4 - Michigan, Virginia, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Army, Ohio St, Penn St, UMass, Vandy, UConn, Jacksonville, Navy, Richmond, JHU, Temple, St Joe’s.
Tier 5 - The rest
OTOH, Duke's quality wins are Penn, ND. Tight wins against teams they should have beat relatively easily - Liberty (8-7), Pitt (15-14).
Duke's SOS is 34th, Loyola 17th. https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-women/
So my opinion is that if you want to tier and you think Duke is in Tier 2, then Loyola is as well.
That's a cool idea ...lets give a special name...how about poll?cltlax wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:37 pmWhat about 25 tiers with one team per tier?wlaxphan20 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:50 pmIf I were to sit down and do this I'd probably have to add a tier or two or make subdivisions for tiersDr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 amBeat who they were supposed to beat...that is Loyola....if you recall, Cuse was #4 and Loyola was #6. So a 1 goal loss to the #4 team is their only mark. Yes, they played a lot of subs in less tough games, but they still beat who they were supposed to. Beat ranked Penn, Princeton, Florida, and NR Penn St....Its not a stretch that they will end the season 16-1 with that one "good" loss.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:57 amIt’s certainly debatable. My rationale is that both Loyola and Princeton have underachieved in games at certain points. Up to this point, Duke and Denver have beaten the teams they were supposed to beat. It’s not an exact science but I prefer the fluidity of the tiers system.Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:42 amI still dont see Duke or Denver ahead of Loyola (or Princeton).OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:45 am Tier 1 - NC, BC.
Tier 2 - NU, Syracuse, Duke, Denver, Stony Brook.
Tier 3 - Loyola, Princeton, Rutgers, JMU, Maryland, Florida, Colorado, Stanford, USC.
Tier 4 - Michigan, Virginia, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Army, Ohio St, Penn St, UMass, Vandy, UConn, Jacksonville, Navy, Richmond, JHU, Temple, St Joe’s.
Tier 5 - The rest
OTOH, Duke's quality wins are Penn, ND. Tight wins against teams they should have beat relatively easily - Liberty (8-7), Pitt (15-14).
Duke's SOS is 34th, Loyola 17th. https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-women/
So my opinion is that if you want to tier and you think Duke is in Tier 2, then Loyola is as well.
I'm sorry, in what way did Northwestern "handle" Syracuse? Northwestern was losing to them for the vast majority of the second half and had a 3 goal deficit when there was only 4 minutes left in that game. They scraped, clawed, and inched by Syracuse due to draw control domination, questionable officiating, Syracuse imploding with that last minute turnover resulting in the game-tying goal, Doucette making a last second save on Hawryschuk, etc, etc. My point is if any of those things go the other way, Northwestern does not win that game. Northwestern ESCAPED with that win. Nothing more.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:47 am Some of the benefits of tiers are freedom and flexibility. They can change mid week and/or game to game. Plus there's no rule that dictates a particular order within each tier, especially tiers 3 and 4 in this case.
I'm moving Northwestern to tier 2 all by their onesies until the clash vs Maryland in a smidgeda over two weeks from now (Saturday, April 23rd on Weird Field). They'll be on cruise control for upcoming wins over Rutgers, San Diego State and Johns Hopkins, all in Evanston (outside at Martin Stadium finally please??) until that last game of the season vs their archrival. They've handled Stony Brook and Syracuse who are both formidable teams, and every other team they've faced since that 20-9 massacre in Chapel Hill in early March. Maybe it woke them up. They've taken care of business since, winning 6 straight. The streak will have reached 9 by the time the bus pulls into College Park.
A lot of teams dropped off this new alignment because frankly, they're marginal teams and not very compelling at this point. And yup--still not impressed with Maryland. Who have they defeated this year that is a quality win? Florida? Meh. Certainly no one else aside from the Gators can even be considered. We'll see how they do against Northwestern. No one to give them a hard time between now and then with Princeton on the slide lately. And if Maryland loses to the Tigers next week? LOOK OUT BELOOOOOOW.
Tier 1 - Carolina, Boston College
Tier 2 - Northwestern
Tier 3 - Syracuse, Duke, Stony Brook, Denver, JMU, Loyola, Florida*
Tier 4 - Maryland, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Princeton, Arizona St
Tier 5 - The rest
* In a tier above for their win over Syracuse. Maryland ducked Syracuse this year and I don't think they would have been able to go toe to toe with the Orange anyway.
No meaning intended by “handled” other than they beat them.laxer12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:04 amI'm sorry, in what way did Northwestern "handle" Syracuse? Northwestern was losing to them for the vast majority of the second half and had a 3 goal deficit when there was only 4 minutes left in that game. They scraped, clawed, and inched by Syracuse due to draw control domination, questionable officiating, Syracuse imploding with that last minute turnover resulting in the game-tying goal, Doucette making a last second save on Hawryschuk, etc, etc. My point is if any of those things go the other way, Northwestern does not win that game. Northwestern ESCAPED with that win. Nothing more.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:47 am Some of the benefits of tiers are freedom and flexibility. They can change mid week and/or game to game. Plus there's no rule that dictates a particular order within each tier, especially tiers 3 and 4 in this case.
I'm moving Northwestern to tier 2 all by their onesies until the clash vs Maryland in a smidgeda over two weeks from now (Saturday, April 23rd on Weird Field). They'll be on cruise control for upcoming wins over Rutgers, San Diego State and Johns Hopkins, all in Evanston (outside at Martin Stadium finally please??) until that last game of the season vs their archrival. They've handled Stony Brook and Syracuse who are both formidable teams, and every other team they've faced since that 20-9 massacre in Chapel Hill in early March. Maybe it woke them up. They've taken care of business since, winning 6 straight. The streak will have reached 9 by the time the bus pulls into College Park.
A lot of teams dropped off this new alignment because frankly, they're marginal teams and not very compelling at this point. And yup--still not impressed with Maryland. Who have they defeated this year that is a quality win? Florida? Meh. Certainly no one else aside from the Gators can even be considered. We'll see how they do against Northwestern. No one to give them a hard time between now and then with Princeton on the slide lately. And if Maryland loses to the Tigers next week? LOOK OUT BELOOOOOOW.
Tier 1 - Carolina, Boston College
Tier 2 - Northwestern
Tier 3 - Syracuse, Duke, Stony Brook, Denver, JMU, Loyola, Florida*
Tier 4 - Maryland, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Princeton, Arizona St
Tier 5 - The rest
* In a tier above for their win over Syracuse. Maryland ducked Syracuse this year and I don't think they would have been able to go toe to toe with the Orange anyway.
That's fine then. But to put them in a tier of their own and (not include SU) when Syracuse could've and really should've beaten them, is pretty disingenuous to say the least. But, it is your set of tiersOuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:10 amNo meaning intended by “handled”. Just meant they beat them.laxer12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:04 amI'm sorry, in what way did Northwestern "handle" Syracuse? Northwestern was losing to them for the vast majority of the second half and had a 3 goal deficit when there was only 4 minutes left in that game. They scraped, clawed, and inched by Syracuse due to draw control domination, questionable officiating, Syracuse imploding with that last minute turnover resulting in the game-tying goal, Doucette making a last second save on Hawryschuk, etc, etc. My point is if any of those things go the other way, Northwestern does not win that game. Northwestern ESCAPED with that win. Nothing more.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:47 am Some of the benefits of tiers are freedom and flexibility. They can change mid week and/or game to game. Plus there's no rule that dictates a particular order within each tier, especially tiers 3 and 4 in this case.
I'm moving Northwestern to tier 2 all by their onesies until the clash vs Maryland in a smidgeda over two weeks from now (Saturday, April 23rd on Weird Field). They'll be on cruise control for upcoming wins over Rutgers, San Diego State and Johns Hopkins, all in Evanston (outside at Martin Stadium finally please??) until that last game of the season vs their archrival. They've handled Stony Brook and Syracuse who are both formidable teams, and every other team they've faced since that 20-9 massacre in Chapel Hill in early March. Maybe it woke them up. They've taken care of business since, winning 6 straight. The streak will have reached 9 by the time the bus pulls into College Park.
A lot of teams dropped off this new alignment because frankly, they're marginal teams and not very compelling at this point. And yup--still not impressed with Maryland. Who have they defeated this year that is a quality win? Florida? Meh. Certainly no one else aside from the Gators can even be considered. We'll see how they do against Northwestern. No one to give them a hard time between now and then with Princeton on the slide lately. And if Maryland loses to the Tigers next week? LOOK OUT BELOOOOOOW.
Tier 1 - Carolina, Boston College
Tier 2 - Northwestern
Tier 3 - Syracuse, Duke, Stony Brook, Denver, JMU, Loyola, Florida*
Tier 4 - Maryland, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Princeton, Arizona St
Tier 5 - The rest
* In a tier above for their win over Syracuse. Maryland ducked Syracuse this year and I don't think they would have been able to go toe to toe with the Orange anyway.
Of course. It’s all subjective, anyway. Just something to pass the time between games. I’d love to see you (and anyone else) put up a set of tiers. I find everybody’s opinions on who should be ranked where very interesting. Good discussion fodder.laxer12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:31 amThat's fine then. But to put them in a tier of their own and (not include SU) when Syracuse could've and really should've beaten them, is pretty disingenuous to say the least. But, it is your set of tiersOuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:10 amNo meaning intended by “handled”. Just meant they beat them.laxer12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:04 amI'm sorry, in what way did Northwestern "handle" Syracuse? Northwestern was losing to them for the vast majority of the second half and had a 3 goal deficit when there was only 4 minutes left in that game. They scraped, clawed, and inched by Syracuse due to draw control domination, questionable officiating, Syracuse imploding with that last minute turnover resulting in the game-tying goal, Doucette making a last second save on Hawryschuk, etc, etc. My point is if any of those things go the other way, Northwestern does not win that game. Northwestern ESCAPED with that win. Nothing more.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:47 am Some of the benefits of tiers are freedom and flexibility. They can change mid week and/or game to game. Plus there's no rule that dictates a particular order within each tier, especially tiers 3 and 4 in this case.
I'm moving Northwestern to tier 2 all by their onesies until the clash vs Maryland in a smidgeda over two weeks from now (Saturday, April 23rd on Weird Field). They'll be on cruise control for upcoming wins over Rutgers, San Diego State and Johns Hopkins, all in Evanston (outside at Martin Stadium finally please??) until that last game of the season vs their archrival. They've handled Stony Brook and Syracuse who are both formidable teams, and every other team they've faced since that 20-9 massacre in Chapel Hill in early March. Maybe it woke them up. They've taken care of business since, winning 6 straight. The streak will have reached 9 by the time the bus pulls into College Park.
A lot of teams dropped off this new alignment because frankly, they're marginal teams and not very compelling at this point. And yup--still not impressed with Maryland. Who have they defeated this year that is a quality win? Florida? Meh. Certainly no one else aside from the Gators can even be considered. We'll see how they do against Northwestern. No one to give them a hard time between now and then with Princeton on the slide lately. And if Maryland loses to the Tigers next week? LOOK OUT BELOOOOOOW.
Tier 1 - Carolina, Boston College
Tier 2 - Northwestern
Tier 3 - Syracuse, Duke, Stony Brook, Denver, JMU, Loyola, Florida*
Tier 4 - Maryland, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Princeton, Arizona St
Tier 5 - The rest
* In a tier above for their win over Syracuse. Maryland ducked Syracuse this year and I don't think they would have been able to go toe to toe with the Orange anyway.
Parenthetically, you could apply the same principle to Syracuse’s win over Loyola—but once you start down that rabbit hole, you have to do it for every game that’s close or has controversial calls or non-calls.
Ultimately, woulda-coulda-shoulda’s fit into the category of “losers lament”. Though the points may be valid, they’re sour grapes once the win or loss goes down in the books.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:33 pmParenthetically, you could apply the same principle to Syracuse’s win over Loyola—but once you start down that rabbit hole, you have to do it for every game that’s close or has controversial calls or non-calls.
Syracuse had substantial leads in both games (NU and Loyola) in the fourth quarters and let it get away from them in both instances. The Loyola game never should have come down to those 2 controversial calls at the end of the game. However, Syracuse's complete lack of composure and killer instincts made it come down to those calls and therefore definitely could've resulted in them losing both games. But in the same retrospect, SU could've (and should've as I've personally stated) won both those games as well. Not saying I think Syracuse is worlds better than Northwestern or Loyola, because I don't. I'm saying it's incorrect to have Northwestern in a group of their own. I would put Cuse, Northwestern, Loyola, Stony Brook, and Duke all in the same tier.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:33 pmParenthetically, you could apply the same principle to Syracuse’s win over Loyola—but once you start down that rabbit hole, you have to do it for every game that’s close or has controversial calls or non-calls.
Haha I'm not lamenting or whining about the Northwestern loss at all. I just wholeheartedly disagree with any notion that Northwestern is the better team in comparison to Syracuse.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:13 pmUltimately, woulda-coulda-shoulda’s fit into the category of “losers lament”. Though the points may be valid, they’re sour grapes once the win or loss goes down in the books.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:33 pmParenthetically, you could apply the same principle to Syracuse’s win over Loyola—but once you start down that rabbit hole, you have to do it for every game that’s close or has controversial calls or non-calls.
In regards to the Northwestern loss, I don’t consider a three-goal lead late in the fourth with more than three minutes to go substantial, especially against that offense. Plus, I remember watching that game. Syracuse choked that one away. They deserved to lose that game. So Northwestern earned that win. No asterisks involved.laxer12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:36 pmHaha I'm not lamenting or whining about the Northwestern loss at all. I just wholeheartedly disagree with any notion that Northwestern is the better team in comparison to Syracuse.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:13 pmUltimately, woulda-coulda-shoulda’s fit into the category of “losers lament”. Though the points may be valid, they’re sour grapes once the win or loss goes down in the books.OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:33 pmParenthetically, you could apply the same principle to Syracuse’s win over Loyola—but once you start down that rabbit hole, you have to do it for every game that’s close or has controversial calls or non-calls.