I was a 2X AA DI tender, my dad a 3X AA DI and NC tender, son All-Ivy tender... Lots of discussions over the years about goaltending! Obviously, men's game.
But very different styles of play, differing as athletes. Father was small, 5'9" quick as lightning, forced fast breaks, very high arc. I was bigger, 5'11" quick hands and first step but not as fast out of the net, medium arc; son 6'1" and strong out of net, but careful, lower though not flat arc, very disciplined footwork..each differing arcs, footwork, etc. Games differed due to stick technology, etc.
Son has coached both women and men high school and college tenders, and international men's tenders. He also trained as a high school player with some women shooters, including multiple future DI AA and a Tewey winner; much of the following is based on my discussions with him.
Certainly athleticism helps in various aspects of the game, but I'd agree with the comment about mental aspects being more important than physical.
Of course, great tenders have to have some of both. Gotta have quick hand eye at a very minimum. Comfort out of the cage is a big plus, though less important than ball stopping and clean passing for women's game tenders...men's too!
The mental aspects do include fundamental disciplines, a thoughtful, practiced approach in every detail of play. We can debate arcs, footwork, crouch, etc, but my son would say that these need to be adapted to the specific tender, their physical attributes...yet need, nevertheless, to be very disciplined. Stick position in cage, balance, lead hand movement to ball, body following are another matter. These are pretty darn consistent as to what works best and they need to be so disciplined and drilled that there's never any thought involved. (and yet often aren't disciplined which is what I think is being critiqued).
As to flopping, etc, I don't think I ever went to the ground, nor did my dad, yet my son did frequently when shots were in close and read low. When you're denying the likes of Lyle Thompson or Dylan Molloy in tight, you do need to sell out all the way. That said, I always want to see hands to ball and clean balance on intermediate and outside shots. Flopping on those shots eliminates ability to react to bounce and too often indicates a sense of panic rather than confident control.
The biggest difference for stopping women's shots is the speed of release out of the stick. Way less wind up...though Charlotte North's penalty wind up would give any tender a lump in the throat! So for male tenders, working with shots from top girls or women can be quite challenging to be ready for release time. On the other hand, the release point on shots is easier to read as the men's sticks enable more deception in that aspect.
Back to mental. If you begin with great fundamental techniques, drilled to be as if instinctual, then you build confidence in your preparation to handle any shot challenge. That enables the even more important aspects of staying cool under pressure, the ability be able to 'flush' the last score, the confidence to challenge the shooter...to want the shot...to be 'in the moment'...to achieve 'the zone'...
LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.
NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.
I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.
I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.
Curious to hear others on this matter.
Are you a lawyer? You pick words apart like you get paid for it clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry!
And why all the CAPITAL LETTERS? Are you yelling when you do that? Did you miss the part where I said clearly you had a track record of success? Whatever you teach must be working, and whatever I taught worked as well—it took me from lowly D3 assistant to D1 head coach. And a kid from a non hot bed area to all American. You have your method. I have mine. That’s what makes the world go around!
Okay, not a Lawyer, but know a lot of them. It's not hard for me to have a discussion with anyone, but I am not one to overlook obvious mistakes. I just jump in.
I use capital letters for emphasis sometimes, nothing more. The whole shouting thing for me is when I do an entire sentence in capitals.
I started this thread to talk about how the level of goalie play has declined and I got hit with "were any people on this thread actual women's goaltenders?", "there is no proper way to make saves", and "you do it your way and I'll do it my way".
Those responses made me respond, but I was looking for people to explain why this happened and what can be done to make the position better.
and tothedraw, No Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound. She had a good tournament, but check her overall stats for the season. BC won and that's all that really matters for BC fans.
LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.
NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.
I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.
I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.
Curious to hear others on this matter.
Are you a lawyer? You pick words apart like you get paid for it clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry!
And why all the CAPITAL LETTERS? Are you yelling when you do that? Did you miss the part where I said clearly you had a track record of success? Whatever you teach must be working, and whatever I taught worked as well—it took me from lowly D3 assistant to D1 head coach. And a kid from a non hot bed area to all American. You have your method. I have mine. That’s what makes the world go around!
Okay, not a Lawyer, but know a lot of them. It's not hard for me to have a discussion with anyone, but I am not one to overlook obvious mistakes. I just jump in.
I use capital letters for emphasis sometimes, nothing more. The whole shouting thing for me is when I do an entire sentence in capitals.
I started this thread to talk about how the level of goalie play has declined and I got hit with "were any people on this thread actual women's goaltenders?", "there is no proper way to make saves", and "you do it your way and I'll do it my way".
Those responses made me respond, but I was looking for people to explain why this happened and what can be done to make the position better.
and tothedraw, No Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound. She had a good tournament, but check her overall stats for the season. BC won and that's all that really matters for BC fans.
Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound according to your approach to fundamentals. But she may have been taught a different type of fundamentals. In education this is called differentiation of instruction. Teaching a student differently, according to their needs/learning styles/strengths, in order to get them to the same point as everyone--proficiency in the content. As it relates to Hall, she may have been taught differently. You may not love her save percentage, but she clearly proved her proficiency in being the starting keeper for a national championship squad.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 pm
by OuttaNowhereWregget
Larry I'm wondering if you would please assess the goaltending technique on this goal. There are replays and multiple camera angles. I thought Hennessey went down prematurely but I'm no coach. What do you think? Thanks
LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.
NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.
I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.
I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.
Curious to hear others on this matter.
Are you a lawyer? You pick words apart like you get paid for it clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry!
And why all the CAPITAL LETTERS? Are you yelling when you do that? Did you miss the part where I said clearly you had a track record of success? Whatever you teach must be working, and whatever I taught worked as well—it took me from lowly D3 assistant to D1 head coach. And a kid from a non hot bed area to all American. You have your method. I have mine. That’s what makes the world go around!
Okay, not a Lawyer, but know a lot of them. It's not hard for me to have a discussion with anyone, but I am not one to overlook obvious mistakes. I just jump in.
I use capital letters for emphasis sometimes, nothing more. The whole shouting thing for me is when I do an entire sentence in capitals.
I started this thread to talk about how the level of goalie play has declined and I got hit with "were any people on this thread actual women's goaltenders?", "there is no proper way to make saves", and "you do it your way and I'll do it my way".
Those responses made me respond, but I was looking for people to explain why this happened and what can be done to make the position better.
and tothedraw, No Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound. She had a good tournament, but check her overall stats for the season. BC won and that's all that really matters for BC fans.
Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound according to your approach to fundamentals. But she may have been taught a different type of fundamentals. In education this is called differentiation of instruction. Teaching a student differently, according to their needs/learning styles/strengths, in order to get them to the same point as everyone--proficiency in the content. As it relates to Hall, she may have been taught differently. You may not love her save percentage, but she clearly proved her proficiency in being the starting keeper for a national championship squad.
Exactly correct. Here in Baltimore there are several goalie trainers that have all produced a ton of top level D1 goalie talent. They all teach different fundamentals. Larry's may way work great for a lot of players. But maybe other's would be better off with different fundamentals. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. It's no different than any other sport. You should be training athletes to use their physical abilities in the most efficient and effective way. It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. The key is that there is consistency in what the keeper is doing. While goalies may learn different techniques from different coaches they all strive to have muscle memory instilled in their goalies so that their movements come naturally.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:55 am
by LarryGamLax
hmmm wrote the following :
"Exactly correct. Here in Baltimore there are several goalie trainers that have all produced a ton of top level D1 goalie talent. They all teach different fundamentals. Larry's may way work great for a lot of players. But maybe other's would be better off with different fundamentals. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. It's no different than any other sport. You should be training athletes to use their physical abilities in the most efficient and effective way. It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. The key is that there is consistency in what the keeper is doing. While goalies may learn different techniques from different coaches they all strive to have muscle memory instilled in their goalies so that their movements come naturally."
I want you to PM me and tell me who the Goalie Trainers are and the ton of top level D1 talent they have produced. I'm curious. You are talking about female goalies right?
Different Fundamentals? What does that mean? Is that similar to "Alternative Facts"? This is how it was taught to me and the these things are tried and true. Every Goalie may be different, but there are certain things they should have in common. Those things are certain techniques and Fundamentals. Good technique and Fundamentals will allow a "athletic" goalie to use their abilities in an efficient and effective way.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:50 am
by Dr. Tact
LarryGamLax wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:55 am
hmmm wrote the following :
"Exactly correct. Here in Baltimore there are several goalie trainers that have all produced a ton of top level D1 goalie talent. They all teach different fundamentals. Larry's may way work great for a lot of players. But maybe other's would be better off with different fundamentals. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. It's no different than any other sport. You should be training athletes to use their physical abilities in the most efficient and effective way. It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. The key is that there is consistency in what the keeper is doing. While goalies may learn different techniques from different coaches they all strive to have muscle memory instilled in their goalies so that their movements come naturally."
I want you to PM me and tell me who the Goalie Trainers are and the ton of top level D1 talent they have produced. I'm curious. You are talking about female goalies right?
Different Fundamentals? What does that mean? Is that similar to "Alternative Facts"? This is how it was taught to me and the these things are tried and true. Every Goalie may be different, but there are certain things they should have in common. Those things are certain techniques and Fundamentals. Good technique and Fundamentals will allow a "athletic" goalie to use their abilities in an efficient and effective way.
I am treading in deep water here...I know squat about goaltending fundamentals and technique. As a parent to middies, I usually focus on the offensive side and dont really have a deep understanding of the keeper's moves. But, I notice different types of goalies. The athletic ones complete with flashy splits and kick saves (hockey like), the active ones who move/react to all attackers stick moves, and the solid wall goalie that holds her line/angles (not locked to the ground, but smart about coming out to narrow openings). Those are three different types that I see and I'm just a dumb Rasta Redhead with yellow skin.
I know I am ^^oversimplifying^^ and yes, there has to be a certain set of standard truths/fundamental techniques to all goalies. So if that is the argument, I would think you both could agree.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:00 pm
by MDlaxfan76
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 pm
Larry I'm wondering if you would please assess the goaltending technique on this goal. There are replays and multiple camera angles. I thought Hennessey went down prematurely but I'm no coach. What do you think? Thanks
Yes, there's nothing in the attacker's motion that would indicate a low shot. Moreover the tender's stick head lowered a bit well before the attacker's move (should have stayed high at that point) and then she went down to the ground, hands up, meaning she had no idea where the ball was going. Simply impatient.
Stick should have remained high, body up, unless and until there was a read low in which case the top hand should go down, reversing with other hand up, so stick going down flat, body following...but she never actually had the low read, so all the other motion was just impatience...it happens.
On that move in which the attacker turns back down the alley stick high, the tender should remain high, stick up and close to the pole taking away almost all angle. If the attacker tries to draw the ball across to far corner, the top hand crosses to the ball catching or deflecting wide the shot. Don't let it inside. If the attacker tries to go low, you already have your body cutting off most of that opportunity, drop the hands with the shot and only go down if certain.
Instead the attacker takes exactly what she's given, the whole top of the net, lots of white space.
That said, the attacker's shot might well have scored nevertheless, might have placed it differently etc; we'll never know.
LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:11 pm
Shots are coming in tighter and with quicker release in the women’s game (no pockets). So we would always teach shallower arc (more reaction time) and hands closer together (easier to snap the across your body, particularly high inside). Just a few examples.
NO POCKETS? I think you need to really research that one.
I definitely do not do the shallow arc and definitely do not do hands close together. I see that as bad technique(my opinion) and that will get you beat.
Do you think "the splits" and "jumping in the air to body block" are sound techniques? I saw a lot of that this season, but not a lot of saves from it.
I would love to have a face-to-face meeting with you and fergie25. I just see this position suffering year after year. In the Women's game it is the most undercoached position and it shows on the field. Again my opinion based on over 20+ years experience.
Curious to hear others on this matter.
Are you a lawyer? You pick words apart like you get paid for it clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry!
And why all the CAPITAL LETTERS? Are you yelling when you do that? Did you miss the part where I said clearly you had a track record of success? Whatever you teach must be working, and whatever I taught worked as well—it took me from lowly D3 assistant to D1 head coach. And a kid from a non hot bed area to all American. You have your method. I have mine. That’s what makes the world go around!
Okay, not a Lawyer, but know a lot of them. It's not hard for me to have a discussion with anyone, but I am not one to overlook obvious mistakes. I just jump in.
I use capital letters for emphasis sometimes, nothing more. The whole shouting thing for me is when I do an entire sentence in capitals.
I started this thread to talk about how the level of goalie play has declined and I got hit with "were any people on this thread actual women's goaltenders?", "there is no proper way to make saves", and "you do it your way and I'll do it my way".
Those responses made me respond, but I was looking for people to explain why this happened and what can be done to make the position better.
and tothedraw, No Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound. She had a good tournament, but check her overall stats for the season. BC won and that's all that really matters for BC fans.
Rachel Hall is not fundamentally sound according to your approach to fundamentals. But she may have been taught a different type of fundamentals. In education this is called differentiation of instruction. Teaching a student differently, according to their needs/learning styles/strengths, in order to get them to the same point as everyone--proficiency in the content. As it relates to Hall, she may have been taught differently. You may not love her save percentage, but she clearly proved her proficiency in being the starting keeper for a national championship squad.
I didn't watch Rachel Hall enough to critique her specific "fundamentals" but she was ranked 69th in the country in saves percentage and surely played on a rather strong team, so wasn't getting shelled by superior teams. She had a better saves percentage the prior year, significantly worse in her second season. I can't attribute where she is now, or give advice on how to improve without much more study and close observation, including listening to what she's thinking about in her own words, but clearly she has room for improvement. Which is great if she does the work!
I think we're getting mixed up between differences in style of play, specific tactics tailored to body size, etc, but there are indeed common fundamentals that are best practices regardless of "style".
We shouldn't excuse undisciplined fundamentals under the cover of different 'styles'.
That said, indeed there's quite likely a dearth of consistent coaching of these fundamentals. Doesn't mean they don't exist.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:06 pm
by 8meterPA
without looking, see if you can guess 3 of the top 20 in save %
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 pm
Larry I'm wondering if you would please assess the goaltending technique on this goal. There are replays and multiple camera angles. I thought Hennessey went down prematurely but I'm no coach. What do you think? Thanks
Yes, there's nothing in the attacker's motion that would indicate a low shot. Moreover the tender's stick head lowered a bit well before the attacker's move (should have stayed high at that point) and then she went down to the ground, hands up, meaning she had no idea where the ball was going. Simply impatient.
Stick should have remained high, body up, unless and until there was a read low in which case the top hand should go down, reversing with other hand up, so stick going down flat, body following...but she never actually had the low read, so all the other motion was just impatience...it happens.
On that move in which the attacker turns back down the alley stick high, the tender should remain high, stick up and close to the pole taking away almost all angle. If the attacker tries to draw the ball across to far corner, the top hand crosses to the ball catching or deflecting wide the shot. Don't let it inside. If the attacker tries to go low, you already have your body cutting off most of that opportunity, drop the hands with the shot and only go down if certain.
Instead the attacker takes exactly what she's given, the whole top of the net, lots of white space.
That said, the attacker's shot might well have scored nevertheless, might have placed it differently etc; we'll never know.
Thanks MDlax76...you summed that up nicely. Patience...that's one of those fundamentals that a LOT of Goalies should be taught these days, but alas, they are not!
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:10 pm
by Dr. Tact
LarryGamLax wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:40 pm
Thanks MDlax76...you summed that up nicely. Patience...that's one of those fundamentals that a LOT of Goalies should be taught these days, but alas, they are not!
This is a trait that I think is god given and learned. And it can be on both sides of that A vs G play. The best close in attacking players have seemingly unlimited patience when tight on the Goal circle. I think of #24 on the Hounds who can go 3 or 4 fakes before shooting. It isn't a skill that all A/M have.
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 pm
Larry I'm wondering if you would please assess the goaltending technique on this goal. There are replays and multiple camera angles. I thought Hennessey went down prematurely but I'm no coach. What do you think? Thanks
Yes, there's nothing in the attacker's motion that would indicate a low shot. Moreover the tender's stick head lowered a bit well before the attacker's move (should have stayed high at that point) and then she went down to the ground, hands up, meaning she had no idea where the ball was going. Simply impatient.
Stick should have remained high, body up, unless and until there was a read low in which case the top hand should go down, reversing with other hand up, so stick going down flat, body following...but she never actually had the low read, so all the other motion was just impatience...it happens.
On that move in which the attacker turns back down the alley stick high, the tender should remain high, stick up and close to the pole taking away almost all angle. If the attacker tries to draw the ball across to far corner, the top hand crosses to the ball catching or deflecting wide the shot. Don't let it inside. If the attacker tries to go low, you already have your body cutting off most of that opportunity, drop the hands with the shot and only go down if certain.
Instead the attacker takes exactly what she's given, the whole top of the net, lots of white space.
That said, the attacker's shot might well have scored nevertheless, might have placed it differently etc; we'll never know.
Thanks very much, MD. I appreciate the full dissection and analysis.
Re: The Art of(or lack thereof) Goaltending
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:56 am
by OuttaNowhereWregget
Sydney Davis of Major Force Lacrosse commits to Kent State
Nice goaltending photo
LarryGamLax wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:56 am
Were any of you as taken aback by the poor goaltending in the Tournament(hell, during the season) as I was?
Fundamentals...absent , Proper Techniques...absent , Proper Mechanics...absent
All of the things that make a goalie good were missing. Here's what replaced those things...highly overrated athleticism, Goalies looking like they were playing the "Flat Arc"(which is not an arc at all), a lot of Goalies helping with the clear(?) by coming past the restraining line or sometimes midfield...WHY?? , Goalies not focusing on the ball , Goalies doing the splits , Goalies jumping in the Air to try and block the ball with their bodies as opposed to making the plays with their sticks. I watched a goalie get scored on 6 times in the same place and she tried to make the save 6 times with a body part, and not once with her stick.
No stepping to the ball on a 45 degree angle, no rotate and turn to face ball at X....Just a lot of non-sensical stuff that has severely diminished the level of play at what is simply the single most important position on the field. We can rave about the offensive prowess of Charlotte North and others, but a few of these teams could have used a MEGHAN TAYLOR(Maryland '19).
Larry—what’s your assessment of Stony Brook goalkeepers Campbell and Halsall?
Last night the Wolverines knocked Notre Dame out of the tournament on the shores of Lake Michigan, fittingly enough. It was a clear and sparkling case of a goaltender winning a game for her teammates.
Consider the numbers:
Arielle Weissman made 17 saves on the 28 shots she faced.
In these other categories, it is apparent that Weissman was the explanation.
Notre Dame won the free position shots battle 9-4; draw controls 19-13; turnovers 20-13 and shots on goal 28-20.
They'll need another performance like that Sunday if they want to grab their program first win over Northwestern, and their first ever trip to the quarterfinals.
clearly you knew what I meant when I said “no pockets”. This is why it’s hard to have discourse with you, Larry! 
WOW!