LaxPower Back-Up Stick

ah23 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:55 pm

pcowlax wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:13 am It is exceedingly unusual to have a mass incidence like this outside of something like a building collapse and crush injuries.

It happens with college football programs. Happened with Iowa (13 players), happened with Oregon (3 players), and happened with a number of others that I can’t remember off the top of my head. IIRC it’s also more common (relatively speaking) in high intensity activities like CrossFit or spin cycling.

As a few people have noted - rhabdo doesn’t automatically indicate that some inhumane workout was conducted. It CAN, but ultimately it’s ‘just’ the body’s response to overexertion, especially after a period of lessened activity. That’s why the football examples are from the preseason, after guys have spent the summer away from team-structured S&C and suddenly get thrown back in. Similar for CrossFit or spin…people push way too hard and go past their limit without realizing it. A few days later, they end up going to the hospital.

Beyond what the workout actually was, I’m most curious about who the ’trainer’ was and what kind of background/preparation/support they had. If they were a legit trainer? Easier to see this as an unfortunate mistake/misalignment of expectations and preparation, but not indicative of negligence or poor management. However, if they were just some BUD/S grad who was brought in because HOOAH but weren’t actually capable of leading legit athletic training? That would be a different, much more damaging story.

I will say: there is nothing inherently wrong with having a SEAL/Marine/member of any branch lead workouts. Good and bad training happens in all environments, and the “D-III kids shouldn’t be doing military workouts!” stuff just doesn’t make sense at all. Teams at all levels do "military workouts" without issue. In my experience, “military workouts” in a sports context are just challenging workouts with a greater focus on overcoming adversity as a group while using unusual implements. Carry this log. Hoist this sandbag. Jump in that pool. Etc. I absolutely think there are valid criticisms of how orgs like The Program view and teach leadership, but that’s not because I think D-III athletes shouldn’t be working out hard in September. Just plain do not understand that line of thinking at all.

Finally…the same nuclear “toxic culture!! fire everyone!!” hot takes will come from many of the same people for many of the same reasons they always do, but ultimately no one in here knows anything. Alleging forced drug/alcohol abuse or power-drunk coaches trying to pull off a coverup and knowingly endangering their players, etc. is ridiculous.

I assume the investigation will be made public. Looking forward to some actual facts on this to understand what went on and whether this was just an unfortunate situation or actual malpractice took place. If the fact pattern says negligence and direct responsibility, the response should be cut and dry. If the fact pattern says this was just an unfortunate mix of hard training + not being physically ready for that (completely understandable - it's September), don't think there should or will be major consequences.

(meant to respond to more than just pcowlax, but I'm on mobile and had a hard time scrolling/finding everything)

Red4Life wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:15 pm (with a gentle slant towards let’s not over react)

Quick point to mull over - over 25% of the players participating were hospitalized ….

ah23 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:22 pm

Red4Life wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:15 pm (with a gentle slant towards let’s not over react)

100% - it costs nothing to wait for legit information and react to that.

Quick point to mull over - over 25% of the players participating were hospitalized ….

It’s pretty remarkable - good point highlighting it.

IMO a number that high says the workout was poorly designed from the jump and based on bad expectations about where they would be fitness-wise two weeks into the school year. Such a big chunk of a team is crazy, especially given their play style and the level of conditioning I assume they have to maintain. That doesn’t just happen because a few guys were out of shape or something - indicates a bigger problem.

Laxdds wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:35 am

ah23 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:22 pm

Red4Life wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:15 pm (with a gentle slant towards let’s not over react)

100% - it costs nothing to wait for legit information and react to that.

Quick point to mull over - over 25% of the players participating were hospitalized ….

It’s pretty remarkable - good point highlighting it.

IMO a number that high says the workout was poorly designed from the jump and based on bad expectations about where they would be fitness-wise two weeks into the school year. Such a big chunk of a team is crazy, especially given their play style and the level of conditioning I assume they have to maintain. That doesn’t just happen because a few guys were out of shape or something - indicates a bigger problem.

Having spent 28 years in the Navy medical department, although I was never stationed at Coronado, I can say with almost 100% certitude that the SEAL's would not undergo physical training without an experienced corpsman standing by and observing. If the person leading the training was a SEAL as reports indicate he certainly should have known that. Which reinforces that fact that the training was poorly planned from the start. The Navy requires a corpsman and an ambulance standing by for a routine 1.5 mile PRT run, or at least they used to.

Was this a recurring type thing every fall? Because it's the type of training you can get away with until you can't

The12lov3 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:43 pm First off the most important thing here is the kids health. Hopefully all will be back to playing soon.

Second - This is not just a Tufts issues - seems like that this type of training has been going on for year at all levels. The workouts needs to be in line with these kids lifestyle. No reason for any of these programs to do such intense workouts that could cause the kids harm.

Third - Everyone is speculating at this point. Myself included. Initially I thought that something else contributed to this because of the numbers and the interview with the MD at BWH . e.g. dehydrating from a hard weekend of drinking during homecoming. Could I be wrong - of course I can be but at the end of the day the workout was very intense and the kids were unprepared no matter what they did the weekend before. That does not mean that there was any wrongdoing here. All the haters want to blame the coach, the staff, the MD, the tweets of the coach, etc without any knowledge of what happened before, during, and after. That is why the university is conducting an investigation of what happened. Let the facts come out - Accidents happen but just because they happen does not mean that people were negligent.

Red4Life wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:40 pm

The12lov3 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:43 pm First off the most important thing here is the kids health. Hopefully all will be back to playing soon.

Second - This is not just a Tufts issues - seems like that this type of training has been going on for year at all levels. The workouts needs to be in line with these kids lifestyle. No reason for any of these programs to do such intense workouts that could cause the kids harm.

Third - Everyone is speculating at this point. Myself included. Initially I thought that something else contributed to this because of the numbers and the interview with the MD at BWH . e.g. dehydrating from a hard weekend of drinking during homecoming. Could I be wrong - of course I can be but at the end of the day the workout was very intense and the kids were unprepared no matter what they did the weekend before. That does not mean that there was any wrongdoing here. All the haters want to blame the coach, the staff, the MD, the tweets of the coach, etc without any knowledge of what happened before, during, and after. That is why the university is conducting an investigation of what happened. Let the facts come out - Accidents happen but just because they happen does not mean that people were negligent.

“Accidents happen but just because they happen does not mean that people were negligent.”

Accident? People not Negligent? …..Really?

The12lov3 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:20 pm I just read an article about a women who did cross-fit and did not know until a few day later that she had the condition. Please read this article because I think it gives good perspective.

https://nypost.com/2024/09/23/lifestyle ... challenge/

The12lov3 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:54 pm If an accident happens in a car - does that mean that someone was negligent.
Hate to say we are all human and make mistake. Mistakes don't mean always mean someone was negligent.

choochooCharlie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 6:40 pm

The12lov3 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:54 pm If an accident happens in a car - does that mean that someone was negligent.
Hate to say we are all human and make mistake. Mistakes don't mean always mean someone was negligent.

Sir, even outside the talk of delayed incident reporting, the presence of any of the compounding factors of alcohol and/or other substances, whether staff members were present, or any other current here-say, what’s been reported sounds like, by legal definition, “negligence.” “-Failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another.” The “captains” weren’t the ones to fill out forms for approval to have an outside entity using facilities on campus, select this program, or pay this individual to come there. Adding to that, medical professionals have already given commentary as to how extremely odd it is to have this condition outside of one isolated individual in a group exercise. The fact that the University has hired an independent investigator and placed the men’s lacrosse staff on leave, combined with the families reportedly hiring attorneys only points more towards the likely presence of one or more of the other potential issues mentioned above.

This is before there is any digging done to figure out what caused the players to be so dehydrated and trigger the notably unusual bloom of this condition. The who what when where’s. But hey, “they don’t put rings on smooth hands” -Coach D September 2024.

Laxdds wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:35 am Was this a recurring type thing every fall? Because it's the type of training you can get away with until you can't