All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[seacoaster]

The perils of "back to work." Does McConnell have a plan?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opin ... ening.html

"House Democrats have passed a new “phase four” $3 trillion coronavirus relief bill. You could call it an opening bid toward a package to support a sensible, deliberate economic reopening.

But Republicans are having none of it. No one has staked out the “no” position as starkly as Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader. He declared the bill “dead on arrival” upon its release. Weeks ago, when it was barely a twinkle in Nancy Pelosi’s eye, he asserted that “we can’t pass another bill unless we have liability protections.”

Unsurprisingly, the president agrees with Mr. McConnell that any federal cash to states must be conditioned on “lawsuit indemnification,” as he indicated in a tweet.

Democrats adamantly oppose removing a critical incentive for businesses to prevent workplace contagion and keep employees and communities safe. Insisting that they imbibe this specific poison is more than a hardball negotiating tactic. Mr. McConnell is essentially saying that the debate over the next round of coronavirus relief is finished before it starts because Republicans are in charge and their course is set: Americans will suffer for the Dow, Democrats can’t stop it, and negotiation over what else might be done will be limited to policy instrumental to the Trump-McConnell plan.

The ruling Republican approach to the economic crisis of mass social distancing seems to be to simply to cut it short, force a hasty reboot of the economy and recklessly gamble on penniless states and municipalities muddling through without creating too much politically inconvenient carnage.

The president’s repudiation of responsibility pushed the burden of pandemic control onto states with imploding budgets. Yet Republican leadership holds that states shouldn’t get a dime of additional aid unless, by agreeing to liability reform, they not only endorse the rush to re-engage the economy but also do so in a way that accepts that thousands more may sicken or worse in the push to kick America’s casinos and car dealerships back into gear.

It makes an appalling sort of sense. If your goal is to break America’s lifesaving resolve to maintain social-distancing measures or introduce reliable test-and-trace regimes, it can be counterproductive to relieve intensifying pressure on wrecked state and municipal budgets. Steadfast federal inaction will suffice to starve workers back into the yoke and compel governors and mayors fearing fiscal ruin and popular uprising to reopen.

The hitch in the plan for a blitzkrieg economic reboot, as Republicans see it, is that some business owners might hesitate to reopen if there’s a risk that employees who catch Covid-19 on the job might sue them for failing to take reasonable safety precautions.

But this isn’t really a problem. It’s an excuse to coerce Americans back to work by refusing desperately needed help.

You’ll notice that the Republican call for liability protection amounts to a frank admission that in hurrying back to shops and offices, factories and showrooms, Americans might die. The wariness of business owners to expose themselves to the legal peril of reopening during an uncontained epidemic isn’t a problem. It’s a market signal telling us that for now, the risks of rushing to reopen might outweigh the rewards. If it were generally safe to reopen, Republicans wouldn’t need to shut this signal down.

That said, there’s really very little risk of “a second epidemic of frivolous lawsuits,” as Mr. McConnell heartlessly put it. Personal injury lawyers, who generally get paid only if they win or settle, are unlikely to pursue Covid-19 lawsuits against employers. It would be very difficult to establish precisely when and where someone caught the virus or to prove that a worker would not have picked it up but for their employer’s negligence. Nor is it likely to build a plausible class-action lawsuit by bundling together many injuries of such easily contestable origin. In any case, many employment agreements require workers to waive their right to join class-action suits. There will be no plague of ambulance chasers.

Still, our real problem, the first and actual epidemic, remains to be contained. According to existing liability law, businesses have little to fear if they take “reasonable care” to protect the health and safety of their workers. This means little more than following state and local reopening guidelines and adopting prevailing industry standards.

The demand for liability reform is just a pretext for disgraceful inaction — an excuse for legislative obstruction that attempts to cast Democrats as the obstruction’s source.

Democrats may have little power to stop the Trump-McConnell plan. But they can rattle Republican resolve to refuse aid to suffering workers and struggling states through brutal clarity about the shocking, electorally toxic reality of the Republican “plan” for our country.

Mr. Trump displays his determination to restart the economy in plain defiance of his administration’s own public health guidelines nearly every day. It’s a transparently panicked effort to memory-hole what may be the deadliest presidential failure in American history, foist the blame onto China or Democrats or both, and flog the recalcitrant donkey of America’s stalled economy into a virulent gallop — all to conjure the illusion of a successfully managed return to normality well before the election in November.

Mitch McConnell’s liability protection ruse is a refined encapsulation of the wild dishonesty, incoherence and cruelty of the president’s desperate rush to reopen the country.

Why will workers agree to show up at a workplace that wouldn’t have reopened if their employer hadn’t been encouraged to discount their safety? Well, because they’ll get kicked off unemployment if they don’t, which could force them to choose between working in unsafe conditions or watching their children go hungry.

For a strategy meant to foster an illusion of economic success, these are atrocious optics. The Republican Party is broadcasting that it can’t see the difference between the interests of capital and the health and welfare of ordinary working Americans. It’s communicating that fatal losses to workers and their communities are tolerable, but financial losses to the business class are not.

The longer you look at it, the more Republican haste to reopen resembles harsh class warfare. This won’t be lost on the working class, including white blue-collar voters Republicans need to avoid a wipeout, especially if Democrats drive the message home: Trump-McConnell Republicans believe that you deserve nothing but owe them everything."

[MDlaxfan76]

At the risk of interrupting our lesson on racism and raw fish, here is an interesting chart:

https://twitter.com/PatriarchTree/statu ... 4511354880

Any correlation between higher per capita numbers and Democrat Governors is purely coincidental.

There's no correlation with Dem vs GOP governors (eg VT Dem, MD GOP), rather there's a strong correlation with where the virus first landed pre-recognition and adoption of social distancing, and a correlation with density. If you drill further down instead of state level, the spread has been worst in dense areas where people are congregated.

However we are seeing and are very likely going to continue to see new spread where people congregate in areas that have lowered standards around social distancing, where the politics are creating critical masses of congregation. This is likely to be more and more smaller town situations throughout the country. These are areas with less travel to and from hot zones, but eventually the virus will get there.

We will also continue to see spread among areas with high poverty combined with high density.

We're far from doing what we need to do with testing, tracing, isolating.

Saw an interesting bit with Dr. Hazleltine this AM who was suggesting that death rates of those intubated has been dropping from above 80% to 30%...a huge jump in survival, leading to lower death count. But he's calling for counting hospitalizations and serious after impact, destroyed kidneys, damaged hearts, etc. Much like we do way, way better for our soldiers in battle today, but should count those injured, the loss of limbs, the head injuries leading to suicides, etc.

[Peter Brown]

interesting exchange on CNBC: https://theweek.com/speedreads/916588/c ... -president

revealing exchange, but that's the short version. Click here and listen to the longer version:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnbc-segmen ... ople-died/

Sorkin, like most Democrats, gets emotional and angry when confronted with their awful analysis, the actual facts, and their poor predictions. He's been wrong on everything, he's a journalist so there's no accountability and he will continue to get the gilded invite to Davos where he pretends to be a player while players mock him behind his back, and when called out on his fear hysteria, he gets all girly on you. Good for the other guy Kernen for telling it like it is.

Trust me, if more people called out journo's on their constant partisan Dem lies and economy-ruin fear peddling, they'd all have the same reaction as Sorkin: 'but 100,000 people died....' as if that's Kernen's burden. This is a stock price show, not a philosophy course in weighted personal responsibility.

Thanks for the longer version. Sorkin is correct, Kernan pooh poohed the virus's health impact, stupidly, wrongly, at each and every stage in lock step with Trump. Wrong when it was just a handful of infections, wrong when it was just a handful of deaths, wrong over and over and over again as the deaths mounted and they kept predicting it was going to go away any day.

Not to benefit investors, but full on in the tank supporting Trump.

The stock market on the other hand is a reflection not of this year's economy's strength, but rather the expectations for the ensuing 20 years and especially in relation to other places to put the enormous influx of cash pumped by the central banks.

These are two very different things.

Look, this may all play out marvelously well going forward for Americans, no major spikes or waves, all going to zero any day now. That would be awesome.

But there's going to be an enormous reckoning if that does not occur.

Kernen was “wrong” when he suggested it wasn’t bright to halt an economy when the recovery rate is 99.98%?! And he was “wrong” when he told Sorkin the stock market would recover quickly when it gapped below 20,000?

Wish I was that ‘wrong’.

He was Wrong on every health aspect. At every turn. Colossally wrong.

Why you can't separate these things is beyond me.

How many trillions have the Fed pumped in to save the economy, how many trillions from Congress?

Predicting the stock market is an entirely different matter from understanding that the virus threatened millions of lives if unchecked and recognizing that there would be immense shocks to the economy when people recognized the reality of this threat, such recognition and economic shock being WAY worse the slower the response to checking the virus was.

Now we're gambling that we won't have rolling waves of additional shocks and that somehow the threat will magically disappear.

When MD says a guy is 'wrong', what that means in realspeak is the guy was 'correct but not a Democrat'.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

an interesting video on what offices may look like in the future: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... turn-video

[get it to x]

At the risk of interrupting our lesson on racism and raw fish, here is an interesting chart:

https://twitter.com/PatriarchTree/statu ... 4511354880

Any correlation between higher per capita numbers and Democrat Governors is purely coincidental.

There's no correlation with Dem vs GOP governors (eg VT Dem, MD GOP), rather there's a strong correlation with where the virus first landed pre-recognition and adoption of social distancing, and a correlation with density. If you drill further down instead of state level, the spread has been worst in dense areas where people are congregated.

However we are seeing and are very likely going to continue to see new spread where people congregate in areas that have lowered standards around social distancing, where the politics are creating critical masses of congregation. This is likely to be more and more smaller town situations throughout the country. These are areas with less travel to and from hot zones, but eventually the virus will get there.

We will also continue to see spread among areas with high poverty combined with high density.

We're far from doing what we need to do with testing, tracing, isolating.

Saw an interesting bit with Dr. Hazleltine this AM who was suggesting that death rates of those intubated has been dropping from above 80% to 30%...a huge jump in survival, leading to lower death count. But he's calling for counting hospitalizations and serious after impact, destroyed kidneys, damaged hearts, etc. Much like we do way, way better for our soldiers in battle today, but should count those injured, the loss of limbs, the head injuries leading to suicides, etc.

That you would call "Lockdown Larry" Hogan a Republican is revealing. My trade association, which espouses free enterprise, supported him with a sizable check the first time he ran. That will be the last check he gets from us and I would estimate we are 95+% Republicans. He's an opportunist that knew the Dems were putting up a weak candidate in Anthony Brown.

Lets see, who:

• Kept the NYC subway open?
  Shipped recovering covid patients to nursing homes?
  Said it's OK to celebrate Chinese New Year?
  Had the harshest lockdowns, so people would stay inside when fresh air and sunshine reduced the spread

In fact, Oxiris Barbot, NYC Health Commissioner mocked anyone who was afraid to go to the Lunar New Years Parade.

The certitude of liberal progressives and their fixation on perceived injustices (covid patients being denied admittance to elder care facilities was bigoted in some way) costed way more lives than any move by conservative governors. When Trump shut down travel from China he was labeled a "xenophobe". You do know a phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear of something? Seem's to me his concerns were well founded.

[Peter Brown]

an interesting video on what offices may look like in the future: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... turn-video

I mean, it's an interesting video, Frank, but ultimately it's just a few months' entertainment for the masses to worry over.

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

What might change permanently is some folks will realize that cities and dense offices are not ideal habitats to thrive mentally and emotionally; in my opinion, they never have been. But, I've been wrong often in life and the numbers are the numbers and the numbers suggest a ton of people enjoy living relatively miserable existences in high tax, high crime, high liberal cities. I chalk that up to safety in numbers rather than true desire, but you can't fight the tape forever; even here on Fanlax, many profess to be content in some cr@p states and cities in spite of all evidence suggesting that's impossible.

Anyway, to anyone reading this, feel free to move to Florida to fish, golf, date, work, retire, play pickleball, but please, leave behind the lib policies!!!!!

[a fan]

That you would call "Lockdown Larry" Hogan a Republican is revealing. My trade association, which espouses free enterprise, supported him with a sizable check the first time he ran. That will be the last check he gets from us and I would estimate we are 95+% Republicans. He's an opportunist that knew the Dems were putting up a weak candidate in Anthony Brown.

So you're complaining about Hogan locking down Maryland too long in this paragraph......

Lets see, who:

• Kept the NYC subway open?
  Shipped recovering covid patients to nursing homes?
  Said it's OK to celebrate Chinese New Year?
  Had the harshest lockdowns, so people would stay inside when fresh air and sunshine reduced the spread

....and then make fun of NYC for not locking down enough?

Do you just not realize that you're complaining no matter what a governor does? So which path do you want?

[get it to x]

That you would call "Lockdown Larry" Hogan a Republican is revealing. My trade association, which espouses free enterprise, supported him with a sizable check the first time he ran. That will be the last check he gets from us and I would estimate we are 95+% Republicans. He's an opportunist that knew the Dems were putting up a weak candidate in Anthony Brown.

So you're complaining about Hogan locking down Maryland too long in this paragraph......

Lets see, who:

• Kept the NYC subway open?
  Shipped recovering covid patients to nursing homes?
  Said it's OK to celebrate Chinese New Year?
  Had the harshest lockdowns, so people would stay inside when fresh air and sunshine reduced the spread

....and then make fun of NYC for not locking down enough?

Do you just not realize that you're complaining no matter what a governor does? So which path do you want?

My beef with Hogan mainly over essential/non essential. I had to drive to NOVA to play golf. What is more socially distant than 4 people on a 10 acre par 4? Courses eliminated anything people touch, like water jugs, rakes in traps and ball washers. I don’t miss those things but I do miss the “beverage wenches”.

[get it to x]

That you would call "Lockdown Larry" Hogan a Republican is revealing. My trade association, which espouses free enterprise, supported him with a sizable check the first time he ran. That will be the last check he gets from us and I would estimate we are 95+% Republicans. He's an opportunist that knew the Dems were putting up a weak candidate in Anthony Brown.

So you're complaining about Hogan locking down Maryland too long in this paragraph......

Lets see, who:

• Kept the NYC subway open?
  Shipped recovering covid patients to nursing homes?
  Said it's OK to celebrate Chinese New Year?
  Had the harshest lockdowns, so people would stay inside when fresh air and sunshine reduced the spread

....and then make fun of NYC for not locking down enough?

Do you just not realize that you're complaining no matter what a governor does? So which path do you want?

My beef with Hogan mainly over essential/non essential. I had to drive to NOVA to play golf. What is more socially distant than 4 people on a 10 acre par 4? Courses eliminated anything people touch, like water jugs, rakes in traps and ball washers. I don’t miss those things but I do miss the “beverage wenches”.

[a fan]

That's cool, and a fair complaint.

Suffice it to say, you obviously got my point. Don't rip on NY for being "too open", when you're giving it to Hogan for being "too closed".

[RedFromMI]

(omitted stuff)

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

(more omitted stuff)

PB likes to draw to an inside straight...

You are dreaming if you think a widely available vaccine will be in place that early.

[a fan]

Holy *hit. PA Republicans hide the fact that members of PA Congress had Covid, and kept coming in to work. They didn't tell their Dem colleagues.

Talk about a new low. Just....wow.



https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... g-n1216106

[Peter Brown]

(omitted stuff)

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

(more omitted stuff)

PB likes to draw to an inside straight...

You are dreaming if you think a widely available vaccine will be in place that early.

Of course I'm 'dreaming'; I'm an American, we are optimists! Being optimistic about humanity has been life's easiest bet ever; humans are hard-wired to survive and thrive, and no one understood that better than the earliest settlers and eventual Founders of this country! This is why Democrats represent the backwards view of life and America, and Republicans the forward!

[kramerica.inc]

New York City is allowing you to hang out on the beaches, but not swim.

California is allowing you to swim, but not hang out on the beaches.

Both claim science is guiding their policies.

So which is it?



In the military, “dilution is the solution.”

[MDlaxfan76]

At the risk of interrupting our lesson on racism and raw fish, here is an interesting chart:

https://twitter.com/PatriarchTree/statu ... 4511354880

Any correlation between higher per capita numbers and Democrat Governors is purely coincidental.

There's no correlation with Dem vs GOP governors (eg VT Dem, MD GOP), rather there's a strong correlation with where the virus first landed pre-recognition and adoption of social distancing, and a correlation with density. If you drill further down instead of state level, the spread has been worst in dense areas where people are congregated.

However we are seeing and are very likely going to continue to see new spread where people congregate in areas that have lowered standards around social distancing, where the politics are creating critical masses of congregation. This is likely to be more and more smaller town situations throughout the country. These are areas with less travel to and from hot zones, but eventually the virus will get there.

We will also continue to see spread among areas with high poverty combined with high density.

We're far from doing what we need to do with testing, tracing, isolating.

Saw an interesting bit with Dr. Hazleltine this AM who was suggesting that death rates of those intubated has been dropping from above 80% to 30%...a huge jump in survival, leading to lower death count. But he's calling for counting hospitalizations and serious after impact, destroyed kidneys, damaged hearts, etc. Much like we do way, way better for our soldiers in battle today, but should count those injured, the loss of limbs, the head injuries leading to suicides, etc.

That you would call "Lockdown Larry" Hogan a Republican is revealing. My trade association, which espouses free enterprise, supported him with a sizable check the first time he ran. That will be the last check he gets from us and I would estimate we are 95+% Republicans. He's an opportunist that knew the Dems were putting up a weak candidate in Anthony Brown.

Lets see, who:

• Kept the NYC subway open?
  Shipped recovering covid patients to nursing homes?
  Said it's OK to celebrate Chinese New Year?
  Had the harshest lockdowns, so people would stay inside when fresh air and sunshine reduced the spread

In fact, Oxiris Barbot, NYC Health Commissioner mocked anyone who was afraid to go to the Lunar New Years Parade.

The certitude of liberal progressives and their fixation on perceived injustices (covid patients being denied admittance to elder care facilities was bigoted in some way) costed way more lives than any move by conservative governors. When Trump shut down travel from China he was labeled a "xenophobe". You do know a phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear of something? Seem's to me his concerns were well founded.

Only in the whacko upside down Trump world would a guy who twice ran unsuccessful but hard fought congressional campaigns to displace entrenched Dems (first one in 1981), who served in the Ehrlich administration and who founded an org to battle O'Malley and criticize his Administration, who, as an R Governor has balanced an otherwise overwhelmingly Dem legislature...be questioned as Republican.

Apparently the problem is that he's enjoyed such high overall support from Maryland citizens, way more than just the narrow hard right wing of the GOP that constantly crashes against the rocks when they tack too hard right. And oh yeah, he doesn't kiss Trump's butt.

But hey, his golf restrictions were too stringent for you...

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

an interesting video on what offices may look like in the future: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... turn-video

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

maybe. but not only do we need the vaccine, we need to develop enough, and then distribute, then get people in for it. before they die.

then we need it to work.

and we still need therapy for those afflicted.

but sure a vaccine would be a good enhancement. aint no one gonna argue that!

[kramerica.inc]

an interesting video on what offices may look like in the future: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... turn-video

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

maybe. but not only do we need the vaccine, we need to develop enough, and then distribute, then get people in for it. before they die.

then we need it to work.

and we still need therapy for those afflicted.

but sure a vaccine would be a good enhancement. aint no one gonna argue that!

A vax may be right for some. An effective vax would be awesome.
But I wont be the first raising my hand to get a vax for something that hasn't been at least tested a little bit.
How do they develop a vax when they still can't tell us all the characteristics of this virus and how it spreads? IS it effected by heat? Sun? How long does it last on surfaces? Then the bigger questions- What is the actual death rate from this virus? How many strains are there? Waaay more questions than answers so far.
I'm certainly not an antivaxxer. I'll generally pump myself and my kids full of whatever vax you got. But I'm not enthusiastic about a safe/effective vax by Halloween, or Christmas.

[RedFromMI]

an interesting video on what offices may look like in the future: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... turn-video

You'll have a vaccine before Fall so the fear of a permanently changed landscape is a tad overdone, to say the least.

maybe. but not only do we need the vaccine, we need to develop enough, and then distribute, then get people in for it. before they die.

then we need it to work.

and we still need therapy for those afflicted.

but sure a vaccine would be a good enhancement. aint no one gonna argue that!

A vax may be right for some. An effective vax would be awesome.
But I wont be the first raising my hand to get a vax for something that hasn't been at least tested a little bit.
How do they develop a vax when they still can't tell us all the characteristics of this virus and how it spreads? IS it effected by heat? Sun? How long does it last on surfaces? Then the bigger questions- What is the actual death rate from this virus? How many strains are there? Waaay more questions than answers so far.
I'm certainly not an antivaxxer. I'll generally pump myself and my kids full of whatever vax you got. But I'm not enthusiastic about a safe/effective vax by Halloween, or Christmas.

You have to spend a certain amount of time to really see the combination of low side effects and the ability to either prevent getting COVID-19 or at least reducing its lethality significantly. The chances of having something that has passed through all the required hoops and at the same time are universally available is tiny before Christmas. Maybe even significantly longer.

[wgdsr]

WHO Halts Trial Of Trump’s Anti-Malaria Drug After Study Finds Higher Mortality Rate In COVID Cases

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/who- ... ovid-cases

World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesu announced on Monday that the organization is temporarily suspending its drug trial of hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malaria drug President Donald Trump has persistently claimed to treat COVID-19 despite having no scientific evidence.

Ghebreyesu said during a press briefing that researchers heading the WHO’s Solidarity Trial will stop the trial to hold a review after the Lancet’s sweeping study on hydroxychloroquine found that not only did the drug fail to yield any benefits in the 96,000 COVID-19 cases in the study, it actually caused an increased mortality rate among hospitalized patients.

“The review will consider data collected so far in the Solidarity Trial and in particular robust randomised available data, to adequately evaluate the potential benefits and harms from this drug,” the WHO leader said.

“The Executive Group has implemented a temporary pause of the hydroxychloroquine arm within the Solidarity Trial while the safety data is reviewed by the Data Safety Monitoring Board,” he continued.

Perhaps the end of the HCQ craze?

Nope, the Trumpists will claim that WHO is some leftist partisan front for China...

not to worry. randomized trials hopefully give better answers on hcq and others.

for all those hoping the hyq saga would peter out... GUESS AGAIN!!!!
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... r-covid-19
seems the tiny, never-heard-of before data aggregator from the lancet study is coming under the gun. for starters, having more deaths in australia in 5 hospitals than australia had recorded for the entire country. (they're adjusting now for 4 hospitals. yeah, that must be it).

also ftr, the study claimed to have data from 559 hospitals in usa, canada and mexico representing over 63,300 patients by the study cutoff date, april 14. meanwhile, thru april 14th there had been only 67,000 hospitalizations total in usa, canada and mexico and there are over 6,000 usa hospitals and over 12,000 hospitals when you include canada and mexico.
those are some really unlucky 559 hospitals!

i'll find one of the articles i read from a couple days ago starting to exploit whatever this study was really about. can't wait for the clinical trials so we can get some real answers and stop the nonsense both ways. hope they're with zinc at a minimum.

[old salt]

...& Trump survived his HCQ regimen. Sad day for the anti-HCQ zealots.