O Mid vs. Attackman

[Matnum PI]

Why do we even have these two names any more? Why not just "O"? I understand that there are moments when a d-player wins the ball and becomes an O-player and 3 of the formerly O-players (who are now D-players) sprint back onto D and these are typically "middies" while the 3 other formerly O-players stay on O and these are typically "attackmen" and... Is that really why we differentiate between attackmen and middies? Where a player prefers to attack the cage, from in front of or behind the cage? Seems to me that calling Attackmen, attackmen and calling O middies, O middies is just a vestige from years long ago. At best, a reminder of what position the kid played in high school. (When middies are substantially more likely to play both ways. i.e. When middies actually play middy.) Lefty and Righty seems more meaningful than Attackman and Middie. And that's not very meaningful.

[HopFan16]

I think you still need a way to differentiate between offensive players who never leave the field/are involved in every single possession vs. guys who rotate in and out/play roughly 40-70% of possessions (depending on the team)...if only for statistical/All-American purposes.

[Farfromgeneva]

Why would statiscal/accolades be a reason to box in a set of players? Seems backwards.

[Matnum PI]

Good point. With this said, I'd be curious to see how much PT a #1 O middy gets *when the O has the ball* vs. a #1 Attackman. My guess is that the numbers are very similar. Unless the #1 O Mid is actually the #4 Offensive player. And, if that's the case, should we even have a separation between Attackmen and Middies in terms of AAs?

[Matnum PI]

Why would statiscal/accolades be a reason to box in a set of players? Seems backwards.

I'm not following...

[Farfromgeneva]

Was responding to comment that it’s necessary for stats and awards.

There might be other reasons for having the designation but it shouldn’t be to count stats and hand out awards. Those are antecedent to the game not the other way around. 0

[calourie]

I think you still need a way to differentiate between offensive players who never leave the field/are involved in every single possession vs. guys who rotate in and out/play roughly 40-70% of possessions (depending on the team)...if only for statistical/All-American purposes.

I've gotta agree with HopFan16 on this one. It's a small distinction, but a meaningful one, particularly as regards statistical comparison, both in terms of yearly award evaluation as well as career achievement. As a big Yale fan I will pose the example of 1990 grad Jon Reese who still holds the NCAA single season goal scoring record (though he now shares it with Lyle Thompson) with 82 during a season in which he spent about 90% (literally as in of every minute the Bulldogs played of every game) playing at both ends of the field. He also registered 15 assists that year, but to compare his 97 point total to the numerous attackmen playing strictly on the offensive end of the field who have registered over 100 points over the years is a disservice to Reese's achievements. Distinguishing the numbers between players who stay strictly on the offensive end and those who are called upon to play some D and come off the field occasionally feels to me like the appropriate way to evaluate comparative achievement.

[ohmilax34]

This is interesting. Does anyone know of a team that gives different terms (than attack and midfield) to its offensive players based on their roles within the offense. I suppose it could change based on the offense they are running.

For instance a team that starts most of their offensive possessions with a high wing dodge from an offensive player being guarded by a shortstick. Does that offensive player's role have a name?

[Farfromgeneva]

We need to have a formal designation for that? Who are the people handing out these awards or making comparisons that wouldn’t understand the difference?

Basketball is increasingly going positionless. Teams, players and related don’t care. Only marginal fans and people like sport-writers who have financial incentive to care. And agents can find other incentives in contracts than 1st team all nba if positions do ultimately get that fluid.0

[Matnum PI]

I've gotta agree with HopFan16 on this one... As a big Yale fan I will pose the example of 1990 grad Jon Reese... Distinguishing the numbers between players who stay strictly on the offensive end and those who are called upon to play some D and come off the field occasionally feels to me like the appropriate way to evaluate comparative achievement.

For sure true for As and Ms from years gone by. But today, I dunno...

[Matnum PI]

Similarly, is there a difference between a D-man and a LSM? Both cover an offensive player, both get forward into the O end of the field when possible, both... Is there really a difference? A similar issue. In 1985, I'd never say this. But in 2019? I dunno. I see Goalies, FO middies, SSDMs, LSDMs, and O players.

ohmi, I smell a change in our Fantasy League for 2021.

[wgdsr]

We need to have a formal designation for that? Who are the people handing out these awards or making comparisons that wouldn’t understand the difference?

Basketball is increasingly going positionless. Teams, players and related don’t care. Only marginal fans and people like sport-writers who have financial incentive to care. And agents can find other incentives in contracts than 1st team all nba if positions do ultimately get that fluid.0

probably everyone that votes on it? and basketball doesn't have the same substitution, restart and offsides rules, it's apples and oranges.

not that they wouldn't understand the difference, but that when they lined up 12 attackmen, who were on the field for every fast break to receive the fruit of everyone else's labor, and for every possession, without having to play d, run out a clear, or take a wing --- they'd have the #s of 80-110 points for a whole host of guys, vs 45-65 for a bunch of middies --- and att would take down 80-90% of those spots guaranteed. or more, probably.

just because the role of middies isn't exactly as it were in your mind's eye decades ago (hint - it's actually pretty close), doesn't mean this concept fits. it doesn't. attackmen get plenty of accolades, the headline of almost every recap. they're fine. (all imo)

[Matnum PI]

just because the role of middies isn't exactly as it were in your mind's eye decades ago (hint - it's actually pretty close), doesn't mean this concept fits. it doesn't. attackmen get plenty of accolades, the headline of almost every recap. they're fine. (all imo)

wgd, I really don't think it's pretty close. Mids used to run 2-3 lines because the 1st line needed to rest. i.e. The middies played O and D. If a 1st line middy didn't have a 2nd line middy to replace him, he'd be running the full length of the field all game. Today, this is uncommon. Today, O mids off, D mids on.

[Farfromgeneva]

The game doesn’t exist for voters of awards is what I’m suggesting. Fans exist because of the game. Having positions comes with the cost of fixing the concept of the game for many (most) players and coaches and limits the creativity and possibilities of the game. Stats are for super fans, not players who care about winning.

Anyone who’s seriously following along knows who does what. We’ve seen discussions about Scanlan for an easy example.

[wgdsr]

just because the role of middies isn't exactly as it were in your mind's eye decades ago (hint - it's actually pretty close), doesn't mean this concept fits. it doesn't. attackmen get plenty of accolades, the headline of almost every recap. they're fine. (all imo)

wgd, I really don't think it's pretty close. Mids used to run 2-3 lines because the 1st line needed to rest. i.e. The middies played O and D. If a 1st line middy didn't have a 2nd line middy to replace him, he'd be running the full length of the field all game. Today, this is uncommon. Today, O mids off, D mids on.

what years are you talking about? were there plastic sticks on the field? when i played, we ran 2 offensive lines, never a 3rd line. and had 2 lsms and a ssdm on a line. and backups for the rope line. there were years where our faceoff guy played offense, and others where we had a fogo. and a designated wing guy.
because there wasn't a clearing clock, that was often when the substitutions were made, and outside of fast breaks, they got done. were mids caught on d a little more? yeah. that's about it.

watch some old syracuse games and count how many times the gaits were caught on d. that was over 30 years ago. 30.

[wgdsr]

The game doesn’t exist for voters of awards is what I’m suggesting. Fans exist because of the game. Having positions comes with the cost of fixing the concept of the game for many (most) players and coaches and limits the creativity and possibilities of the game. Stats are for super fans, not players who care about winning.

Anyone who’s seriously following along knows who does what. We’ve seen discussions about Scanlan for an easy example.

i agree. but stats are the byproduct of the difference of positions. they are different, they're run differently, they have different roles. just in settled offense, attackmen are also primarily set up closer to the goal to do the finishing and take advantage of middies further out moving and stretching the defense.
to name them as equals defies all of that.

[Farfromgeneva]

Why is defying that a net negative? What if we all fix our thinking of how attachment should be set up because of this distinction and there were a better way out there? It’s constraining and that’s where I wonder if there’s a better reason than stats and awards to have fixed names for positions. That alone shouldn’t limit the game.

Hobart basically has run 5 attackmen out there (almost all lefty’s too which at times is a problem). It’s interesting if not by design but a product of recruiting success. Or what if there were 4-5 middies out there really spacing it out? Who cares what their title is. It’s about getting the ball in the back of the net.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

We need to have a formal designation for that? Who are the people handing out these awards or making comparisons that wouldn’t understand the difference?

Basketball is increasingly going positionless. Teams, players and related don’t care. Only marginal fans and people like sport-writers who have financial incentive to care. And agents can find other incentives in contracts than 1st team all nba if positions do ultimately get that fluid.0

good point. it used to be 12345. now its GGGFF and even that isnt true. in the era of 7 footers dribbling, shooting threes, etc.

the one general *difference ill point out between A & M is the longstick coverage. *top middie excluded, of course

[Matnum PI]

Far, that's my question. So Hobart is running 5 As on offense. My question is... Why do we call them As? Why do we call the 6th O guy an M?

[Matnum PI]

the one general *difference ill point out between A & M is the longstick coverage. *top middie excluded, of course

Exactly. If there are 4 Long sticks on the field, the longies cover the 4 best O players. Not the three As and the top M (though the 3 As and the top M are often the top 4 O players). Also, the longies often cover the non-crease players when the crease players are clearly defined but... Longies and O players are the match-ups. Not Longies and As and Ms.