Tewaaraton Award 2024

[MDlaxfan76]

Tewaaraton winners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaarato ... recipients

The Tewaaraton Winners go to the tourney and they win within the tourney (at least one game). Historically. It's an interesting point. Would Doug Shanahan or Dylan Molloy have won the trophy if Hofstra/Brown didn't go to the tourney and win at least one game? It's not a ridiculous criteria. Shanahan, Molloy, Baum, etc. weren't just great players. They were great players that transformed their non-perennial powerhouse teams into a much better team than they had been historically. Might be something to that.

And yet Brandau definitely deserves the award for regular season play, by a significant margin.

My bet is that one of the other players does have such an outstanding tourney that it trumps the regular season, but if all have good but not great tournaments, hmmm?

[Finster]

If Kav leads his team to the championship again he's definitely winning it. If O'Neal turns it on and leads Duke to the finals again he may win it. If Shelly goes on a tear like his freshman yr in tournament then he could win it. Anyone who is not in the tournament just doesn't have a chance. The voters will remember the tourney and who stepped up in the biggest games of their lives. That's why no one who didn't make the tournament ever won it. If Cornell made it then Kirst would have a chance too. U can have a great season but the superstar who shines when it counts the most and leads his team to a championship or championship game has the best chance to win it.

Points per game:

Brandau: 6.73 (#1)

PKav: 4.62 (#13)

Respectfully, these figures aren’t close enough for a debate as to which player had the BETTER SEASON.

[NYlax222]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

[BetweenTheLines]

If Kav leads his team to the championship again he's definitely winning it. If O'Neal turns it on and leads Duke to the finals again he may win it. If Shelly goes on a tear like his freshman yr in tournament then he could win it. Anyone who is not in the tournament just doesn't have a chance. The voters will remember the tourney and who stepped up in the biggest games of their lives. That's why no one who didn't make the tournament ever won it. If Cornell made it then Kirst would have a chance too. U can have a great season but the superstar who shines when it counts the most and leads his team to a championship or championship game has the best chance to win it.

Points per game:

Brandau: 6.73 (#1)

PKav: 4.62 (#13)

Respectfully, these figures aren’t close enough for a debate as to which player had the BETTER SEASON.

Ehhhh I was with you a month ago when all these teams were doing well and he was putting up 7/game, but more points isn't necessarily a better season when your team then loses the games that matter. Compounding issue: the 2 Princeton losses were at or near his lowest output of the year.

[Finster]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

You’re cherry picking the schedule. Pkav came out of Cleveland State and Marquette with 12 points.

Every game counts imo.

[Finster]

If Kav leads his team to the championship again he's definitely winning it. If O'Neal turns it on and leads Duke to the finals again he may win it. If Shelly goes on a tear like his freshman yr in tournament then he could win it. Anyone who is not in the tournament just doesn't have a chance. The voters will remember the tourney and who stepped up in the biggest games of their lives. That's why no one who didn't make the tournament ever won it. If Cornell made it then Kirst would have a chance too. U can have a great season but the superstar who shines when it counts the most and leads his team to a championship or championship game has the best chance to win it.

Points per game:

Brandau: 6.73 (#1)

PKav: 4.62 (#13)

Respectfully, these figures aren’t close enough for a debate as to which player had the BETTER SEASON.

Ehhhh I was with you a month ago when all these teams were doing well and he was putting up 7/game, but more points isn't necessarily a better season when your team then loses the games that matter. Compounding issue: the 2 Princeton losses were at or near his lowest output of the year.

I think this is the best argument AGAINST Brandau, but I don’t know anything about those games to layer in nuance if any nuance is deserved. He likely would have sealed the deal had Yale won both.

[lorin]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

You’re cherry picking the schedule. Pkav came out of Cleveland State and Marquette with 12 points.

Every game counts imo.

Princeton ranked 13th in D, Albany D went I think 9th in PLL draft, UNC, Cuse, Michigan, Cornell not great on D.

[coda]

Tewaaraton winners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaarato ... recipients

The Tewaaraton Winners go to the tourney and they win within the tourney (at least one game). Historically. It's an interesting point. Would Doug Shanahan or Dylan Molloy have won the trophy if Hofstra/Brown didn't go to the tourney and win at least one game? It's not a ridiculous criteria. Shanahan, Molloy, Baum, etc. weren't just great players. They were great players that transformed their non-perennial powerhouse teams into a much better team than they had been historically. Might be something to that.

And yet Brandau definitely deserves the award for regular season play, by a significant margin.

My bet is that one of the other players does have such an outstanding tourney that it trumps the regular season, but if all have good but not great tournaments, hmmm?

I liked Kirst over Brandau. Kirst played a much tougher schedule. His riding ability creates offense and culture beyond simple pts. I would picking him #1, if we had an Ivy draft .

[MDlaxfan76]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

Past 9 games? Why just 9? You didn't want to include the games ND scored over 20?

Pat scored 60 of ND's 324 points in 13 games so far this season.

Brandau played in 14 of Yale's 15 games so far this season and has 113 of the team's total 351 points.

Both guys are attackmen and presumably benefit from # of offensive possessions created by teammates and benefit from excellent shooting and scoring threats from their fellow players. Which guy saw more offensive possessions per game? Which guy had better shooting teammates, better scoring threats to take attention away from him?

ND has had higher offensive efficiency and higher shooting % overall than Yale, surely benefiting Pat over Matt, right?
Maybe Matt was taking too many shots? no, his shooting % was 36.1 compared to 32.4 for team. Pat's was 34.3 while team was higher at 37.3%.

This isn't a remotely close call.

That said, odds are that one of the other four has a stellar tournament and that trumps Brandau not being there.

[DocBarrister]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

Past 9 games? Why just 9? You didn't want to include the games ND scored over 20?

Pat scored 60 of ND's 324 points in 13 games so far this season.

Brandau played in 14 of Yale's 15 games so far this season and has 113 of the team's total 351 points.

Both guys are attackmen and presumably benefit from # of offensive possessions created by teammates and benefit from excellent shooting and scoring threats from their fellow players. Which guy saw more offensive possessions per game? Which guy had better shooting teammates, better scoring threats to take attention away from him?

ND has had higher offensive efficiency and higher shooting % overall than Yale, surely benefiting Pat over Matt, right?
Maybe Matt was taking too many shots? no, his shooting % was 36.1 compared to 32.4 for team. Pat's was 34.3 while team was higher at 37.3%.

This isn't a remotely close call.

That said, odds are that one of the other four has a stellar tournament and that trumps Brandau not being there.

The numbers are eye-catching and certainly support Brandau’s candidacy.

Having said that … there just hasn’t been the perception that Brandau’s the best player in college lacrosse. O’Neill, PK, and Shellenberger have all been praised as possibly the best player in college lacrosse. It’s not a statistical thing, but rather a matter of perception.

That reputation for greatness takes time to build and is difficult to overcome. I have watched O’Neill several times this season. There is no way he is the current best player in college lacrosse. He flashes moments of greatness here and there, but he has disappeared a few too many times this season. Yet … here he is … certainly more favored as a Tewaaraton candidate than Brandau.

Brandau had a great season, but there are other players with longer-established reputations for greatness (O’Neill, PK, and CS). The Tewaaraton is almost a career award these days, and Brandau just hasn’t had the high-profile career the other candidates have had.

DocBarrister

[nyjay]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

[coda]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

I think they do a good job of scheduling to maximize RPI. I dont think anyone is ducking them. Cornell doesnt have issues finding OOC games. When was the last time Yale scheduled an ACC team?

[MDlaxfan76]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

Past 9 games? Why just 9? You didn't want to include the games ND scored over 20?

Pat scored 60 of ND's 324 points in 13 games so far this season.

Brandau played in 14 of Yale's 15 games so far this season and has 113 of the team's total 351 points.

Both guys are attackmen and presumably benefit from # of offensive possessions created by teammates and benefit from excellent shooting and scoring threats from their fellow players. Which guy saw more offensive possessions per game? Which guy had better shooting teammates, better scoring threats to take attention away from him?

ND has had higher offensive efficiency and higher shooting % overall than Yale, surely benefiting Pat over Matt, right?
Maybe Matt was taking too many shots? no, his shooting % was 36.1 compared to 32.4 for team. Pat's was 34.3 while team was higher at 37.3%.

This isn't a remotely close call.

That said, odds are that one of the other four has a stellar tournament and that trumps Brandau not being there.

The numbers are eye-catching and certainly support Brandau’s candidacy.

Having said that … there just hasn’t been the perception that Brandau’s the best player in college lacrosse. O’Neill, PK, and Shellenberger have all been praised as possibly the best player in college lacrosse. It’s not a statistical thing, but rather a matter of perception.

That reputation for greatness takes time to build and is difficult to overcome. I have watched O’Neill several times this season. There is no way he is the current best player in college lacrosse. He flashes moments of greatness here and there, but he has disappeared a few too many times this season. Yet … here he is … certainly more favored as a Tewaaraton candidate than Brandau.

Brandau had a great season, but there are other players with longer-established reputations for greatness (O’Neill, PK, and CS). The Tewaaraton is almost a career award these days, and Brandau just hasn’t had the high-profile career the other candidates have had.

DocBarrister

I dunno what's in the heads of selectors, which is why this all just discussion, at least from me, as to who actually deserves the award in 2024.

I predict that someone will have a stellar tournament and that's who will separate from the pack, but if all so-so, we're back to who truly deserves in 2024...and even then, might go to whoever is on winning team at end. And if that's ND, unless Entenmann isn't the major factor in that run the way he has been in season, he's my choice of those two. Would be cool to have a tender...

Obviously they are ALL stellar players.

And if anyone has to be the guy who gets the nod over Brandau I'm rooting for Shellenberger to drive a UVA run...

[MDlaxfan76]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

[HopFan16]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

I think they do a good job of scheduling to maximize RPI. I dont think anyone is ducking them. Cornell doesnt have issues finding OOC games.

Shay usually schedules well but I don't think it did them any favors this year. I get throwing a bone to Le Moyne as an alum but they didn't need or benefit from those Albany and Hofstra games at the end of the year. First half of the schedule was excellent but you could tell that RPI was going to drop like a lead balloon in April. You already know Dartmouth is going to be a drain on the entire conference's RPI so you can't really afford a team like Brown to unexpectedly do the same. To be fair I don't think anyone predicted Brown's record would be as bad as it was, but the margins are slim — one team on your schedule can be the difference between making the tournament or not. Don't think the non-con schedule was as optimized as it could have been.

[nyjay]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

I think they do a good job of scheduling to maximize RPI. I dont think anyone is ducking them. Cornell doesnt have issues finding OOC games.

Here are their OOC games - Villanova, Colgate, PSU, Denver, LeMoyne, BU, Hofstra, Albany. No ACC schools and one B1G. I don't think that's strong enough, and it makes them very reliant on being successful in conference, especially when the RPI of the other conference teams isn't great (like this year). Just my $0.02.

[coda]

Kavanagh is going to win the award if ND - as I think most of us expect - wins the tourney, and, to quote William Munny, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

On a more general topic, I do think Yale would benefit from toughening up their OOC schedule a bit, assuming anyone wants to play them.

I think they do a good job of scheduling to maximize RPI. I dont think anyone is ducking them. Cornell doesnt have issues finding OOC games.

Shay usually schedules well but I don't think it did them any favors this year. I get throwing a bone to Le Moyne as an alum but they didn't need or benefit from those Albany and Hofstra games at the end of the year. First half of the schedule was excellent but you could tell that RPI was going to drop like a lead balloon in April. You already know Dartmouth is going to be a drain on the entire conference's RPI so you can't really afford a team like Brown to unexpectedly do the same. To be fair I don't think anyone predicted Brown's record would be as bad as it was, but the margins are slim — one team on your schedule can be the difference between making the tournament or not. Don't think the non-con schedule was as optimized as it could have been.

I usually loads up on solid teams. You dont see him scheduling Blue Bloods very often. That tends to play well for RPI. Solid games that you are likely going to win. Like I said, I cant remember the lat time they scheduled an ACC team

[lorin]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

Past 9 games? Why just 9? You didn't want to include the games ND scored over 20?

Pat scored 60 of ND's 324 points in 13 games so far this season.

Brandau played in 14 of Yale's 15 games so far this season and has 113 of the team's total 351 points.

Both guys are attackmen and presumably benefit from # of offensive possessions created by teammates and benefit from excellent shooting and scoring threats from their fellow players. Which guy saw more offensive possessions per game? Which guy had better shooting teammates, better scoring threats to take attention away from him?

ND has had higher offensive efficiency and higher shooting % overall than Yale, surely benefiting Pat over Matt, right?
Maybe Matt was taking too many shots? no, his shooting % was 36.1 compared to 32.4 for team. Pat's was 34.3 while team was higher at 37.3%.

This isn't a remotely close call.

That said, odds are that one of the other four has a stellar tournament and that trumps Brandau not being there.

The numbers are eye-catching and certainly support Brandau’s candidacy.

Having said that … there just hasn’t been the perception that Brandau’s the best player in college lacrosse. O’Neill, PK, and Shellenberger have all been praised as possibly the best player in college lacrosse. It’s not a statistical thing, but rather a matter of perception.

That reputation for greatness takes time to build and is difficult to overcome. I have watched O’Neill several times this season. There is no way he is the current best player in college lacrosse. He flashes moments of greatness here and there, but he has disappeared a few too many times this season. Yet … here he is … certainly more favored as a Tewaaraton candidate than Brandau.

Brandau had a great season, but there are other players with longer-established reputations for greatness (O’Neill, PK, and CS). The Tewaaraton is almost a career award these days, and Brandau just hasn’t had the high-profile career the other candidates have had.

DocBarrister

Brandau has had a more consistent career then O'Neill go compare the stats, if the ESPN GROUPIES talked about him like they do O'Neil and Spallina he would win it hands down. Spencer won it in 2019 same stats lost in first round.

[DocBarrister]

Not knocking Brandau in any way - exceptional player with a historic year given injuries at Yale , and I'm not even suggesting Kav should win the award. but my issue with PPG as determining factor is it can't factor in opponents. Past nine games for each team:

Yale: Princeton (2), Albany, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Boston, Penn, Brown, LeMoyne.
ND: Duke, UVA (2), Carolina, Cornell, Duke, Syracuse, Michigan. Ohio State

Past 9 games? Why just 9? You didn't want to include the games ND scored over 20?

Pat scored 60 of ND's 324 points in 13 games so far this season.

Brandau played in 14 of Yale's 15 games so far this season and has 113 of the team's total 351 points.

Both guys are attackmen and presumably benefit from # of offensive possessions created by teammates and benefit from excellent shooting and scoring threats from their fellow players. Which guy saw more offensive possessions per game? Which guy had better shooting teammates, better scoring threats to take attention away from him?

ND has had higher offensive efficiency and higher shooting % overall than Yale, surely benefiting Pat over Matt, right?
Maybe Matt was taking too many shots? no, his shooting % was 36.1 compared to 32.4 for team. Pat's was 34.3 while team was higher at 37.3%.

This isn't a remotely close call.

That said, odds are that one of the other four has a stellar tournament and that trumps Brandau not being there.

The numbers are eye-catching and certainly support Brandau’s candidacy.

Having said that … there just hasn’t been the perception that Brandau’s the best player in college lacrosse. O’Neill, PK, and Shellenberger have all been praised as possibly the best player in college lacrosse. It’s not a statistical thing, but rather a matter of perception.

That reputation for greatness takes time to build and is difficult to overcome. I have watched O’Neill several times this season. There is no way he is the current best player in college lacrosse. He flashes moments of greatness here and there, but he has disappeared a few too many times this season. Yet … here he is … certainly more favored as a Tewaaraton candidate than Brandau.

Brandau had a great season, but there are other players with longer-established reputations for greatness (O’Neill, PK, and CS). The Tewaaraton is almost a career award these days, and Brandau just hasn’t had the high-profile career the other candidates have had.

DocBarrister

Brandau has had a more consistent career then O'Neill go compare the stats, if the ESPN GROUPIES talked about him like they do O'Neil and Spallina he would win it hands down. Spencer won it in 2019 same stats lost in first round.

I hear what folks are saying, and they are all good comments. Brandau would certainly merit the trophy if he won it.

For me personally, I would give the Tewaaraton to the player who creates the most chaos for opponents. That player from my perspective is Pat Kavanaugh. He is the most dynamic player in college lacrosse today. He often contributes to goals without ever making the scoresheet (e.g., dragging away two Virginia defenders on a goal a week ago). If lacrosse counted hockey assists, I think he would lead the nation in points.

And I don’t even like the Kavanaughs. Call it grudging respect.

DocBarrister

[Farfromgeneva]

Finalists are out. Brandau is almost certainly done with no tournament appearance, will be one of Shelly, PKav, Oneill, or Entenmann

You’re assuming one of those ‘tournament’ guys excels the next two weeks.

I still say it’s Brandau’s. His PPG lead over everyone is too large to ignore.

One of the four will have strong enough a run and get enough attention to kill Brandau.