NIL and Lacrosse

[AreaLax]

This week’s IL Friday podcast looks at Lacrosse and NIL

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i ... 0644745589

[SCLaxAttack]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

[coda]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

[wgdsr]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

[wgdsr]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

would've been great if they had a couple players in telling congress about some of the stories of coach-hopping, cutting players because all they were one year schollies, huge lake houses, yada. and van pelt with the cherry that the ONLY thing recruits ask about is money.

nice cottage industry these guys have had going.

[Essexfenwick]

Once the inevitable happens and NIL can be paid by schools. UMD will be in a sweet spot since it’s doesn’t have to spend as much on football as other Big and sec schools do. There will be a ton of money for the state sport Lax. As well as men’s basketball.

[coda]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

[wgdsr]

Once the inevitable happens and NIL can be paid by schools. UMD will be in a sweet spot since it’s doesn’t have to spend as much on football as other Big and sec schools do. There will be a ton of money for the state sport Lax. As well as men’s basketball.

other b1g and sec schools bring in twice as much money as maryland does. hoo knows how all the loose couch change shakes out?

[wgdsr]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

[Essexfenwick]

Once the inevitable happens and NIL can be paid by schools. UMD will be in a sweet spot since it’s doesn’t have to spend as much on football as other Big and sec schools do. There will be a ton of money for the state sport Lax. As well as men’s basketball.

other b1g and sec schools bring in twice as much money as maryland does. hoo knows how all the loose couch change shakes out?

UMD should switch to the Paul Johnson flexbone for football which would be competitive but cost zilch. Then take all the money and put into basketball plus lax. Other sports get zilch

[coda]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

[Farfromgeneva]

Full disclosure the parent company (Edly) is a client of mine. I know the NILLY business but don’t have any work for it but sharing as some may find it interesting. It was only a matter of time-owner/founder as a former structure finance head at Merrill Lynch and CS, his son plays lax on a A10 team (and getting some run but not a starter as a Soph)

https://www.nilly.us/

[wgdsr]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

[coda]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

[1766]

NIL and lacrosse is going to be a funny game. The direction the sport is going as it relates to NIL is going to exclude a large swath of schools being competitive. Enterprising supporters with funds to burn can essentially stockpile talent, scholarship limits be damned. NIL is has very little to actually do with NIL. It's pay for play and should be noted as such.

I am not sure what the answer is but there is a real scenario where a small number of schools are going to be playing each other for the ultimate prize every year. What that means for the sport I am not sure but it's going to change it significantly.

There is a basketball tournament being played next year in Las Vegas. I believe it's 12 teams and the prize money is $2MM in "NIL deals", which really means payouts to the players. How that gets allocated to each player I would guess is determined by the programs themselves. A lot to chew on but maybe that's the future of lacrosse too.

[Farfromgeneva]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Unfortunately the binary outcomes required by the grow or die framework also consumes itself ultimately.

But yes I’ve been a beloved that the colleges will lease their own brand to privately owned college teams for at least 6-8yrs.

But to his earlier comment I think most folks who are thoughtful do bifurcte big money college sports from the rest mentally but if he’s suggesting that can be don cleanly and have zero impact on higher Ed or the non money sports I think that would be a crazy position to believe. Hope as a strategy at best.

Question is what’s the distribution of college outcomes post change look like? What’s the best variable to look at today? Endowment /student, ratio of CFB/BB rev to non teaching expenditures? Debt service on non educational assets to cash revenue?

[wgdsr]

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

coda,
having top attendance teams bring in fewer than 2k fans shows the state of play. i noted tosu as they are an absolutely humongous state school as u mentioned, and 700 in isolation, or 1,800 in toto reflects that.

viewership for the sport, between some big international games, to playoff games, even to the pll is way up. good, even though softball still dwarfs it. any success in popularity, also good. never said otherwise. the sport itself hasn't grown in the last 5 years re: participation. so we'll see whether it joins the list of almost all other sports except for bowling.

to me, that's fine and maybe inevitable, tho i'd like to see some modicum of grass roots growth return. but that'll come imo from other avenues than a bunch of big state universities signing on (which is more than a little unlikely, anyway). we have a lot of games on teevee. division 3 fanatics can watch a lot of the contenders play regularly. some pretty organized college club programs and leagues are options for other players/students. ivies and mid-majors can contend. i commented bc of the notion that we "need" expansion. understand that's your opinion about it, and valid as your thought. but to me, we're in a pretty good place. with some warts.


as far as nil goes, it's baked in the cake for now. we'll see how it bleeds once football and hoops sort it out.

[1766]

If fannies in seats is the goal, the powers that be would be smart to push the season back. It's no fun watching lacrosse in the northeast with snowbanks on the sides of the field in 20 degree weather. Rutgers averages 3K fans plus when the weather is warm. It's a lot less when it isn't. I'm sure that's the case for many schools north of the Mason Dixon line.

[coda]

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

coda,
having top attendance teams bring in fewer than 2k fans shows the state of play. i noted tosu as they are an absolutely humongous state school as u mentioned, and 700 in isolation, or 1,800 in toto reflects that.

viewership for the sport, between some big international games, to playoff games, even to the pll is way up. good, even though softball still dwarfs it. any success in popularity, also good. never said otherwise. the sport itself hasn't grown in the last 5 years re: participation. so we'll see whether it joins the list of almost all other sports except for bowling.

to me, that's fine and maybe inevitable, tho i'd like to see some modicum of grass roots growth return. but that'll come imo from other avenues than a bunch of big state universities signing on (which is more than a little unlikely, anyway). we have a lot of games on teevee. division 3 fanatics can watch a lot of the contenders play regularly. some pretty organized college club programs and leagues are options for other players/students. ivies and mid-majors can contend. i commented bc of the notion that we "need" expansion. understand that's your opinion about it, and valid as your thought. but to me, we're in a pretty good place. with some warts.


as far as nil goes, it's baked in the cake for now. we'll see how it bleeds once football and hoops sort it out.

The 1800 is not a large absolute number, but it does rank 8th among lacrosse programs. That is telling, especially considering the location and lack of tradition. My argument is that lacrosse is basically considered an east coast sport. That is where the fans are coming from. The growth will come from places like Texas, California, Florida, and the Midwest. That is where the growth is. It would be great to have major universities playing lax in all those areas.

[Farfromgeneva]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

I don’t think that’s the right logic here. “Being big” = “doing more to grow the game” is problematic. And given both the small numbers and unique nature I don’t think this data tells you much that one can do something with. It’s problematic but some equal access system would be the best path to grow the game. Something better than the current AQ system unless we give up on
The myth that conferences have any value