Israel and West Bank Settlements

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runrussellrun
Posts: 7583
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:07 am

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by runrussellrun »

Brooklyn wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:47 am Give Peace a Chance


https://libertarianinstitute.org/articl ... -a-chance/


Armchair generals and warmongers often share a similar view when it comes to analyzing historical and contemporary events; if the military was not constrained, then victory would be assured. That is the language of mass murderers disguised beneath the need for strategic necessity. It’s ruthless execution uninhibited by morality or law. It’s the collectivists’ sword wielded with savage disregard for innocent individuals. As the war drums beat we hear the same voices now calling for death and destruction. The solution: more military power, operations, kill, conquer, bomb, destroy!

On the cusp of another world war, the world watches on as experts and war hawks try to sound rational, even righteous. In their minds it is reasonable to wage a multi-front war against numerous nations. This is a sign that the American empire is in its death throes, but war may be redemptive. Perhaps their thinking is not so clear cut, but the danger to the world does suggest it may be be that simplistic and ludicrous.

A call to arms has been simmering for some time. It began with the cruise missile diplomacy that emerged at the end of the Cold War and has matured into embargoes and drone strikes. Operating from numerous military bases, allied with coalitions of friendly nations, and with trillions of dollars in debt and a militant culture, the United States is again focusing its arsenal. War is seen as inevitable and acceptable. Even the bloodshed, destruction, hatred, and sorrow.

To be antiwar can at times be contrarian to the point of extremes. To go along with the energy for war, or merely be apathetic, is a tradition that many have come to understand as being normal. A powerful government that employs, protects, and provides monopoly services will occasionally make demands on its populace. It’s the patriotic thing to serve. It’s right to support the war. Otherwise, one is criticizing the courage of the troops, betraying them.

That mentality is guided by variations of societal conditioning, but it is also self-inflicted. In the march to war, the cowardly shy away from controversial opinions. To be antiwar is to err on the side of the radical. Or if they do disagree with war it’s barely with a whisper in the safety of one’s own company. To bring up such an “ugly” topic elsewhere would be impolite. Past penalties for violating this social taboo have been tar and feathering, arrest, and ridicule by both the state and peers.

Even the bad wars have some benefit, we are told. In war a nation can earn reputation and define itself, technology is invented, knowledge gained, and the next generation is tested. Plus, jobs are created! The lie of World War II is that it ended the Great Depression and that it was fought for freedom, liberation. Napoleon and the Kaiser had to be stopped to prevent a single power from controling all of Europe, don’t you know? That’s why the European Union is in charge. The American myth is that their Founders fought a war of separation from the British crown to end taxation so that their descendents could build the biggest government and empire in history. For Australians, our mythology is that the defeat at Gallipoli helped to forge a national identity. While some may find glory and adventure in this tall tale, the truth is gory and miserable.

For those who have vested interests, war is profitable. For weapons manufacturers it is a guaranteed income. Then other industries benefit from contracts that come from a wasteful government seeking all the help it can get. Politicians benefit from inventing threats and calling for war against external or internal enemies. (It’s an ancient tactic.) The media and academics benefit from the coverage of war and the expertise needed to sell war. The speculation and research that goes into propping up phony threats and intellectualizing imperialism and mass murder is how the civilized kill babies. It’s even advertisement friendly for networks and online platforms.

On the cusp of war, clarity begins to be lost.

Dignity and respect for the individual follow. Suddenly, everyone from the targeted pariah region or race or faith deserves death. They need to be punished, killed, humiliated and, even if they seek surrender (if that’s at all possible in the modern age of war), they are still made to suffer. Any injustices from the home team are omitted or explained as pragmatic exertions. A school bus full of children obliterated? A cheerleader will brush it off with, “Things happen in war.” A massacre of the unarmed? “They do it as well.”

War is the most human of all actions and it’s where our sociopath tendencies prevail. Every action leads to outcomes that have consequences for individual human beings. An important hand swipe across a map, or a low rank finger pulling a trigger, all lead to outcomes that ruin lives. The futility is that before, when everything is so certain, the need for immediate action and the energy to conquer and kill is unstoppable. After, once the smoke clears, such energy and desire is lost to time, seemingly forgotten by many old enough to know better.

The American war on Vietnam, the invasion of Iraq, and twenty years of occupying Afghanistan are all now mostly accepted as being regretful wars, “mistakes.” Before they were mechanically pursued. Despite antiwar protests and the argument of the opposition, those wars happened. Opposition to war is often marginalized as pacifists, ideological radicals, or hippies. Anyone who is wary of war must be on the side of the enemy, or at least a deluded isolationist. Kooks, essentially. But when the body bags fill up—the Black Tulip flights, as the Russians call them—and return home to fill coffins, war wariness becomes mainstream. It’s suddenly mature and reasonable to question the war and advocate its end. Such collective realization always comes too late.

If it was not for the First World War, much of the horrible history that followed would not be possible. It ensured the Second World War, the rise of totalitarianism, and a post-colonial world marred by ethnic conflicts and genocide. If anything is going to lead to unintended consequences, it would have to be war. It does not bring peace, but instead just creates the next war.

There is a helpless wariness of war among the lower tiers of society. They are already struggling. People in government do not favor them or listen to them. They are unable to profit from war. In times of conscription, it’s their sons (and soon daughters) that fill uniforms and body bags. Despite claims that liberty democracy grants a voice to the public-at-large, those nations tend to march to war regardless of consensus. Referendums are seldom if ever used to determine war as the answer. Ironically, it’s often the nations doing the invading which have a system of government that’s supposed to allow such democratic process.

I was recently asked why it’s called antiwar and not pro-peace. Perhaps the answer is that peace tends to be reactionary. But for the most part it’s the normal state of humanity. Moments of violence become memorable and defining, and savage violence is life changing. War on the other hand is a collective monstrosity, the coercion and recruitment of individuals to harm and fight others.

A friend who works in the defense industry told me that the war in Ukraine bought him his Audi. There are bonuses and great benefits to working in the arms sector. Many claim to hate or dread the military-industrial complex, yet will eagerly work inside of it. That seems to be the defining feature of most Western societies: income above all else. The blood of foreigners may as well be an abstract compared to the tangible dollars flooding into a bank account. Mass murder is good for the economy of the immoral and unprincipled. It’s a nightmare for everyone else.

If war is meant to unite, to fix an economy, or to spread peace then we have failed. It’s been demonstrated to be ineffective at all of the above. War leads to more war. Those of us who are antiwar or pro-peace must say no. Just stop. To quote John Lennon, “All we are saying, is give peace a chance.”





As I have written on this forum (and on LP) many times before, take all the profit out of war and then we will have peace.
belongs in the taats thread.......like no turd

convert the region to L ron Hubbard junk "science". About as legit as any idiotic religion.

PROVE......that I am NOT the second coming. Prove it.
ILM...Independent Lives Matter
Pronouns: "we" and "suck"
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23842
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
Brooklyn
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Location: St Paul, Minnesota

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

runrussellrun wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:35 am belongs in the taats thread.......like no turd

convert the region to L ron Hubbard junk "science". About as legit as any idiotic religion.

PROVE......that I am NOT the second coming. Prove it.


taats? that's shaat

but yes, as we all know, you are the Second Coming, the Great Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah, the forum's one & only Knight in Shining Armor, and the True Chosen --- :lol:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Well one commonality is you both make claims with the facade of strength and then demand the burden of proof is on others to prove the opposite which isn’t how communication, discourse or pursuit of truth works.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15561
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:50 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
So what your saying is that you have no solution. To quote John McClain...welcome to the party pal. IMO since the UN created this dilemma it should be on them to try and find a solution. Unless of course being the eternal optimist that you are you see a path to peace and a viable 2 state solution. FTR since YOU brought up the dullard issue... you ever read back some of your 150 paragraph posts of financial tedious bullchit that can make a persons eyeballs glaze over and fall right out of their sockets? ;) You have reinvented and redefined the meaning of DULL... Your knowledge works for you. It pretty much bores everybody else to tears. I'm guessing they being other posters are too kind to point that out to you.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23842
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:19 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:50 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
So what your saying is that you have no solution. To quote John McClain...welcome to the party pal. IMO since the UN created this dilemma it should be on them to try and find a solution. Unless of course being the eternal optimist that you are you see a path to peace and a viable 2 state solution. FTR since YOU brought up the dullard issue... you ever read back some of your 150 paragraph posts of financial tedious bullchit that can make a persons eyeballs glaze over and fall right out of their sockets? ;) You have reinvented and redefined the meaning of DULL... Your knowledge works for you. It pretty much bores everybody else to tears. I'm guessing they being other posters are too kind to point that out to you.
Who said it had to be a two state solution? I don’t have an answer (which is confusing to you because answers are more important than questions in your mind) but my initial hypothesis would be a ine state solution with guardrails to ensure neither majority nor minority rule beyond human rights and basic decency. Maybe that’s unrealistic but that feels like the other most likely to improve the misery for all those cats. And the idea they aren’t trying is evidence you make things up without fact. Once again ignoring that you’ve:

Made up lies and projected them onto me
Whined forever about MD sharing a PM that was at worst marginal of cost/value vs what you pulled with me. You’ve lost both the moral high ground and never had the intellectual curiosity of a 18yr old blind and deaf dog let alone a puppy.

It’s on one thread and I’ve been very clear I share things I find relevant form my domain knowledge and happy to stop. I know you don’t read so I’m not worried about your opinion on it. Frankly your confusion about the term dullard actually tells me you aren’t the audience.

And funny what you define as dull while critiquing most everything else in my life which you know so little about.

Definition of dullard, for a dullard:

dullard
noun
dull·​ard ˈdə-lərd
Synonyms of dullard
: a stupid or unimaginative person

Synonyms applicable

Stupid and silly people
airhead berk birdbrain blithering idiot blockhead dumb-ass dummy dunce dunderhead eejit mutt need your head examined idiom nimrod nincompoop stupid thicko tosser troglodyte turkey
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15561
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:41 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:19 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:50 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
So what your saying is that you have no solution. To quote John McClain...welcome to the party pal. IMO since the UN created this dilemma it should be on them to try and find a solution. Unless of course being the eternal optimist that you are you see a path to peace and a viable 2 state solution. FTR since YOU brought up the dullard issue... you ever read back some of your 150 paragraph posts of financial tedious bullchit that can make a persons eyeballs glaze over and fall right out of their sockets? ;) You have reinvented and redefined the meaning of DULL... Your knowledge works for you. It pretty much bores everybody else to tears. I'm guessing they being other posters are too kind to point that out to you.
Who said it had to be a two state solution? I don’t have an answer (which is confusing to you because answers are more important than questions in your mind) but my initial hypothesis would be a ine state solution with guardrails to ensure neither majority nor minority rule beyond human rights and basic decency. Maybe that’s unrealistic but that feels like the other most likely to improve the misery for all those cats. And the idea they aren’t trying is evidence you make things up without fact. Once again ignoring that you’ve:

Made up lies and projected them onto me
Whined forever about MD sharing a PM that was at worst marginal of cost/value vs what you pulled with me. You’ve lost both the moral high ground and never had the intellectual curiosity of a 18yr old blind and deaf dog let alone a puppy.

It’s on one thread and I’ve been very clear I share things I find relevant form my domain knowledge and happy to stop. I know you don’t read so I’m not worried about your opinion on it. Frankly your confusion about the term dullard actually tells me you aren’t the audience.

And funny what you define as dull while critiquing most everything else in my life which you know so little about.

Definition of dullard, for a dullard:

dullard
noun
dull·​ard ˈdə-lərd
Synonyms of dullard
: a stupid or unimaginative person

Synonyms applicable

Stupid and silly people
airhead berk birdbrain blithering idiot blockhead dumb-ass dummy dunce dunderhead eejit mutt need your head examined idiom nimrod nincompoop stupid thicko tosser troglodyte turkey
Your posts, if you pay attention to detail, tells more about you than you realize. I know your a financial wizard. Outside of that your as dumb as a box of rocks. You do work very diligently to try and sound smarter than you are. Myself I prefer Popeyes words of wisdom... I am what I am and that's all that I am.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23842
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:56 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:41 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:19 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:50 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
So what your saying is that you have no solution. To quote John McClain...welcome to the party pal. IMO since the UN created this dilemma it should be on them to try and find a solution. Unless of course being the eternal optimist that you are you see a path to peace and a viable 2 state solution. FTR since YOU brought up the dullard issue... you ever read back some of your 150 paragraph posts of financial tedious bullchit that can make a persons eyeballs glaze over and fall right out of their sockets? ;) You have reinvented and redefined the meaning of DULL... Your knowledge works for you. It pretty much bores everybody else to tears. I'm guessing they being other posters are too kind to point that out to you.
Who said it had to be a two state solution? I don’t have an answer (which is confusing to you because answers are more important than questions in your mind) but my initial hypothesis would be a ine state solution with guardrails to ensure neither majority nor minority rule beyond human rights and basic decency. Maybe that’s unrealistic but that feels like the other most likely to improve the misery for all those cats. And the idea they aren’t trying is evidence you make things up without fact. Once again ignoring that you’ve:

Made up lies and projected them onto me
Whined forever about MD sharing a PM that was at worst marginal of cost/value vs what you pulled with me. You’ve lost both the moral high ground and never had the intellectual curiosity of a 18yr old blind and deaf dog let alone a puppy.

It’s on one thread and I’ve been very clear I share things I find relevant form my domain knowledge and happy to stop. I know you don’t read so I’m not worried about your opinion on it. Frankly your confusion about the term dullard actually tells me you aren’t the audience.

And funny what you define as dull while critiquing most everything else in my life which you know so little about.

Definition of dullard, for a dullard:

dullard
noun
dull·​ard ˈdə-lərd
Synonyms of dullard
: a stupid or unimaginative person

Synonyms applicable

Stupid and silly people
airhead berk birdbrain blithering idiot blockhead dumb-ass dummy dunce dunderhead eejit mutt need your head examined idiom nimrod nincompoop stupid thicko tosser troglodyte turkey
Your posts, if you pay attention to detail, tells more about you than you realize. I know your a financial wizard. Outside of that your as dumb as a box of rocks. You do work very diligently to try and sound smarter than you are. Myself I prefer Popeyes words of wisdom... I am what I am and that's all that I am.
Closing the loop. This is boring me and don’t want to do it anymore so you win. Whatever you say goes.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:25 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:56 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:41 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:19 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:50 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:26 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
I’ve never claimed to be a genius which makes you a liar with respect to this fact right here and right now. There’s no mistaking it. You are making something up. In fact I’m fairly certain high 145 is below the threshold. Pretty sure 160 is the level. I’m sure compared with your 75 it seems that way but that’s still make believe from you once again.

“What’s your solution” doesn’t address the fact that you just bump around here throwing absolute horses**t against the wall hoping some sticks.

Nothing is sailing over my head. This is a crossing of lines that has no solution other than a final one for one side. This detente of sorts weve had for 50yrs with occasional flare ups IS the solution. The alternative is eradication of a cohort.

It’s no different than the many Republicans who whine about immigration but like the status quo in reality because it’s good for business.

Just stop with the idiocy is all. It’s complete stupidity and a joke. Your brain has to have something of value in it other than spewing this nonsense over and over and over. It’s as much of a joke as trips calling everything in the world TAATs. You are just a caricature of a old man in a simpsons episode now.

As such a great person please tell us all your great accomplishments as in intentional dullard. Let’s focus on things since, say, 1993 (30yrs).
So what your saying is that you have no solution. To quote John McClain...welcome to the party pal. IMO since the UN created this dilemma it should be on them to try and find a solution. Unless of course being the eternal optimist that you are you see a path to peace and a viable 2 state solution. FTR since YOU brought up the dullard issue... you ever read back some of your 150 paragraph posts of financial tedious bullchit that can make a persons eyeballs glaze over and fall right out of their sockets? ;) You have reinvented and redefined the meaning of DULL... Your knowledge works for you. It pretty much bores everybody else to tears. I'm guessing they being other posters are too kind to point that out to you.
Who said it had to be a two state solution? I don’t have an answer (which is confusing to you because answers are more important than questions in your mind) but my initial hypothesis would be a ine state solution with guardrails to ensure neither majority nor minority rule beyond human rights and basic decency. Maybe that’s unrealistic but that feels like the other most likely to improve the misery for all those cats. And the idea they aren’t trying is evidence you make things up without fact. Once again ignoring that you’ve:

Made up lies and projected them onto me
Whined forever about MD sharing a PM that was at worst marginal of cost/value vs what you pulled with me. You’ve lost both the moral high ground and never had the intellectual curiosity of a 18yr old blind and deaf dog let alone a puppy.

It’s on one thread and I’ve been very clear I share things I find relevant form my domain knowledge and happy to stop. I know you don’t read so I’m not worried about your opinion on it. Frankly your confusion about the term dullard actually tells me you aren’t the audience.

And funny what you define as dull while critiquing most everything else in my life which you know so little about.

Definition of dullard, for a dullard:

dullard
noun
dull·​ard ˈdə-lərd
Synonyms of dullard
: a stupid or unimaginative person

Synonyms applicable

Stupid and silly people
airhead berk birdbrain blithering idiot blockhead dumb-ass dummy dunce dunderhead eejit mutt need your head examined idiom nimrod nincompoop stupid thicko tosser troglodyte turkey
Your posts, if you pay attention to detail, tells more about you than you realize. I know your a financial wizard. Outside of that your as dumb as a box of rocks. You do work very diligently to try and sound smarter than you are. Myself I prefer Popeyes words of wisdom... I am what I am and that's all that I am.
Closing the loop. This is boring me and don’t want to do it anymore so you win. Whatever you say goes.
Well that's different, me boring you for change. :D usually it's the other way around.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:58 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:31 am
OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2007.
No argument there, ever since Hamas took control.

A successful resolution (at least IMO) would need to remove Hamas or any other Palestinian org dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing Jews, AND it would require a successful Palestinian state with the sort of land bridge that existed before. Both states would need to have a stake in the success of the other.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:05 pm
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:58 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:31 am
OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2007.
No argument there, ever since Hamas took control.

A successful resolution (at least IMO) would need to remove Hamas or any other Palestinian org dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing Jews, AND it would require a successful Palestinian state with the sort of land bridge that existed before. Both states would need to have a stake in the success of the other.
#1 very well said. The solution is so simple on the surface yet too complex to find a workable solution. It is a shame because the potential of Gaza to be a world class destination is easy to visualize. The mistrust from both sides is hard to understand. The possibilities would benefit Palestinians and Israelis alike.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:15 am Well one commonality is you both make claims with the facade of strength and then demand the burden of proof is on others to prove the opposite which isn’t how communication, discourse or pursuit of truth works.


Hee, hee ~ someone else describes you thus: "as dumb as a box of rocks".

See? What goes around comes around.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

On an ominous note Hamas brutally murdered and abused the bodies of 2 Palestinians they believe collaborated with Israel. If your a Palestinian fed up with the status quo the message was received. The vast majority of Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution. Hamas is leading them into the meat grinder and apparently don't care what that means in the long run. At least Yassar Arafat understood how far he could go. These Hamas folks are leading Palestinians in a direction that makes no sense to rational people. They declared war on Israel and Israel is responding in kind. Calls for a ceasefire will fall on deaf ears in Israel. The sad reality is many of these people grabbed by Hamas might as well already be dead. If Hamas had some sort of strategy on play when they organized this assault I'll be damned if I know what it is. The words of General Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor come to mind. This is paraphrasing but accurate... I fear what we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

The mistrust from both sides is hard to understand ... On an ominous note Hamas brutally murdered and abused the bodies of 2 Palestinians they believe collaborated with Israel.

War is hell and all too often civilians get attacked such as these Palestinians here:


https://twitter.com/i/status/1719131909794771267

How on earth is this self defense?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1720483979407847715

Palestinian journalists driving to a conflict area encounter an Israeli tank shooting at civilian vehicles that are flying from said danger zone.

- tank shot at the minibus seen at the start of the footage coming in the opposite direction from which the journalists are headed




The white washing of the IDF will continue but there will always be online video blurbs such as these which reveal the truth that you won't see on TV.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Brooklyn wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:27 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:15 am Well one commonality is you both make claims with the facade of strength and then demand the burden of proof is on others to prove the opposite which isn’t how communication, discourse or pursuit of truth works.


Hee, hee ~ someone else describes you thus: "as dumb as a box of rocks".

See? What goes around comes around.
No idea what your talking about. Are you taking about Cradle? Do you think that means something? I guess you will use anything no matter how pathetic to support your petty need to “win”. Must not have had enough in life to have such a deep need. Feels like you’d take sides with Hitler to win a petty debate. That’s some company to keep.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
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Brooklyn
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:17 pm

No idea what your talking about. Are you taking about Cradle? Do you think that means something? I guess you will use anything no matter how pathetic to support your petty need to “win”. Must not have had enough in life to have such a deep need. Feels like you’d take sides with Hitler to win a petty debate. That’s some company to keep.

So Cradle is now Hitler? Wow. That sure shows desperation on your part. I've had my disagreements with him over the years but have never nor will ever stoop to the level of equating him with that.

Unfortunately, you have one very apparent weakness ~ the lack of humility. You likely recall that our pal Petey twice praised me on these pages for having outsmarted him in my posts. To this day he is the only one who has had enough honest character to admit that I defeated him in these debates.

With re to these discussion on the present crisis in Gaza I have presented online evidence that Biden's poll numbers have taken a drastic drop because of his stupidity in siding with Israel. Clearly it is evident that the MAJORITY of Americans disagree with his ill advised position as I have indicated. This has gone unchallenged by Israel's apologists on this forum. Now it is reported by Newsweek and other media that liberal John Fetterman is also facing a backlash over his strong support for Biden.


https://jacobin.com/2023/11/joe-biden-p ... atic-party
https://www.newsweek.com/john-fetterman ... ar-1846352



As for being compared to Hitler, there are many voices in the wind comparing tRump to him:

https://www.google.com/search?q=republi ... UTF-8#ip=1


If these accusations are valid, then remember that it is Biden's choice in supporting Israel (which is opposed by the nation's majority) that enabled tRump to get back in the White House. Don't say I didn't warn you.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

Trump will embrace the Palestinians and Muslims as his own.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Brooklyn wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:55 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:17 pm

No idea what your talking about. Are you taking about Cradle? Do you think that means something? I guess you will use anything no matter how pathetic to support your petty need to “win”. Must not have had enough in life to have such a deep need. Feels like you’d take sides with Hitler to win a petty debate. That’s some company to keep.

So Cradle is now Hitler? Wow. That sure shows desperation on your part. I've had my disagreements with him over the years but have never nor will ever stoop to the level of equating him with that.

Unfortunately, you have one very apparent weakness ~ the lack of humility. You likely recall that our pal Petey twice praised me on these pages for having outsmarted him in my posts. To this day he is the only one who has had enough honest character to admit that I defeated him in these debates.

With re to these discussion on the present crisis in Gaza I have presented online evidence that Biden's poll numbers have taken a drastic drop because of his stupidity in siding with Israel. Clearly it is evident that the MAJORITY of Americans disagree with his ill advised position as I have indicated. This has gone unchallenged by Israel's apologists on this forum. Now it is reported by Newsweek and other media that liberal John Fetterman is also facing a backlash over his strong support for Biden.


https://jacobin.com/2023/11/joe-biden-p ... atic-party
https://www.newsweek.com/john-fetterman ... ar-1846352



As for being compared to Hitler, there are many voices in the wind comparing tRump to him:

https://www.google.com/search?q=republi ... UTF-8#ip=1


If these accusations are valid, then remember that it is Biden's choice in supporting Israel (which is opposed by the nation's majority) that enabled tRump to get back in the White House. Don't say I didn't warn you.
That’s not what I wrote. Good stuff. “Feels like you would…” is based on your portfolio of work here not on this specific post and nothing in the way it was written would lead any honest person to read it that way unless they weee just gaslighting dbagging it.

Reading is fundamental.

https://fb.watch/oys70OL0wh/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

“I defeated him”. Do you know how f**king stupid the bolded comment is? Do you play basketball in a wheelchair league and run in the special olympics too?

Wait I think I saw a video of you fight once:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ico66bxAI
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
Brooklyn
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:13 pm
That’s not what I wrote. Good stuff. “Feels like you would…” is based on your portfolio of work here not on this specific post and nothing in the way it was written would lead any honest person to read it that way unless they weee just gaslighting dbagging it.

Reading is fundamental.

https://fb.watch/oys70OL0wh/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

“I defeated him”. Do you know how f**king stupid the bolded comment is? Do you play basketball in a wheelchair league and run in the special olympics too?



His ideas honeybunch, not mine. Mebbe you should learn to stop bullying, elevate yourself, and learn some humility like he did. And do learn to address issues rather than gas light like an angry attack dog.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

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OCanada
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:05 pm
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:58 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:31 am
OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2007.
No argument there, ever since Hamas took control.

A successful resolution (at least IMO) would need to remove Hamas or any other Palestinian org dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing Jews, AND it would require a successful Palestinian state with the sort of land bridge that existed before. Both states would need to have a stake in the success of the other.
No doubt. There probably should be a caretaker govt until a foundation can be instituted. Hamas got control bcs of the corruption of the previous government some of which was due to outside players
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