Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Brooklyn]

Such peaceful children, taught rather well

https://x.com/kylenabecker/status/17125 ... a82I2GssRg

Israeli children taught to hate Arabs to death: https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli ... U_enUS1067


Israeli children celebrating 9/11 attacks on WTC: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f55410db997 ... ImgRaw&r=0



Nazi children taught to hate and to kill: https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads ... h-life.jpg




Hate is a two way street. It's everywhere.

[OCanada]

Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

That's a reasonable supposition, as is the supposition that what resources and attention they did have were focused on West Bank violence with the settlements.

Egypt may well have human sources closer to Hamas than Israel's and the US' largely technology based monitoring. It is a little "mind boggling" that the listing apparatus didn't pick up chatter...or was it there and they were just understaffed, no one taking sufficiently seriously, "eye off the ball"? Or was Hamas just really smart in how they communicated the plans, trained, etc such that the technical listening wouldn't pick anything up? Were they sophisticated in a disinformation campaign to suggest a false calm? Or a combination?

But Egypt would have been focused on Gaza.

Doesn't mean they were complicit, but then again Egypt is run by a terrible, corrupt regime and there are factions within it who see profit in Hamas...so, can't simply rule it out that they were 'consulted'...

That is not a reasonable supposition by Friedman. It is pure biased conjecture. He's purporting to speak for Israel's officer corps.
...& you're not qualified to disparage Israel's intel services.

Using pute biasrd speculation is so ironic in this context

[Kismet]

None of the recent posts you’ve made, OS, as thoughtful and illuminating as they are, leaf anywhere NEAR the conclusion that “Bibi wanted peace so bad that he cultivated Hamas in an effort at peace”. He and the rest of the Israeli right wing have really done nothing but suppress, imprison, blockade, repress and isolate Gaza, with the aim, I believe, of forever burying the notion of a two-state solution. Regarding that solution, I believe he is on record as having said, essentially, “over my dead body will that ever happen”.

OK. So include yourself with Bibi's political opponents who claim he dealt with Hamas because he knew they'd never accept a 2 state solution.

I think that Bibi's more of a patriot & pragmatist than that. He tried to coexist with Hamas rather than try to eliminate them, which would be too costly, be of questionable legitimacy* & would isolate Israel, in the vain hope that Fatah would ever accept a 2 state solution.
Now watch & see what it will take to eliminate Hamas, ...if it can be done.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pale ... 20platform.

While some of what you espouse might be true I don't think its time to canonize Bibi just yet. (pardon the Christian reference)

I'm not. I just think he was trying to do the best he could with the hand he was dealt. It was, is & remains -- an intractable situation.
The Israeli people appear to be rallying around Bibi & now, his rivals are willing to join him in a unity govt. The Israelis will eventually hold him accountable for the good & the bad. They don't need our help, or meddling, in doing so.

I suspect when this is all over they will vote him out. He was obviously sanguine about dealing with the various Palestinian factions every few years while no progress was made. He then went all -in with the ultra right wing to maintain power and this will now cost him eventually.

[OCanada]

The various takes on Bibi are interesting. He is exactly the leader Israel does not need and increasingly does not want

Netanyahu has the two state solution off the table. Previous PMs for the most part paid lip service to it. His repression of Palestinian human and political rights has been his default. He did give Palestinians some limited economic benefits. It was untenable from the start but he could not have cared less. That typical authoritarian rigidity ( eg Trump and Bibi etc.) and hubris is why ex. Shin Bet head Ami Ayalon told Le Figaro Netanyahu's government bears "a large part of the responsibility" for creating a climate that Hamas judged propitious for an attack.

That it was the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war was no accident.

I sill have to expsnd on Bibi soon.

[MDlaxfan76]

So, a small fraction of Orthodox Jews are not pro-zionism, the rest are...so, what, all those other Orthodox Jews are misreading their sacred texts? They just don't understand that zionism is forbidden? They are ignoring God's clear commands? Only the small percentage of Orthodox Jews are correct?

Have you not ever read midrash discussions of sacred text? The most learned and scholarly Rabbis have for many, many generations argued about the meanings of specific words, phrases, texts, connecting various texts with each other in different ways, arguing context, arguing what is not written is as important as what is on the page...the debate between literal and poetic...

Frankly, IMO, it's one of the most admirable aspects of Jewish learning and thought, the importance of constant questioning. It's a search for "truth" and a search for how we should live in this world consistent with God's wishes. The search itself is valued, not simply the 'answer'.

BTW, who is to say that God's hand is not on the zionist movement? Who is to say what the limits are on God's fulfillment of promises? Who is to say that the mind of God cannot change? You? Me? a few Orthodox Jews?

BTW, I think it's equally offensive for some zionists to claim exclusive comprehension of God's will...or all sorts of such exclusive claims in my religious tradition, Christianity...or any religion...IMO, it's highly arrogant and often quite dangerous...

Deuteronomy 4:2 Moses declares, “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commands of the Lord your God which I command you.” The only way to rightly “keep” God's commands is to not add or subtract from his word.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews believe it and that's why they oppose zionist ideology. Of course, many thousands more despise it from their political standpoint.

BTW, still waiting for anyone to prove to me that the Bible's teaching on this is incorrect.

yup, a very small percentage of Jews, even smaller the group you describe, holding quite fundamentalist, exclusive views of these texts. Many millions of Jews disagree about the reading of the text. I guess they're all wrong according to you? That's a heck of a lot of generations of rabbis and scholars...and you're right, they're wrong?

I'm not Jewish, but that's in my Bible as well and I don't remotely come to that conclusion any more than I come to the conclusion that you must be a Christian to get to heaven based on Jesus' teachings according to certain later writers...doesn't stop some of my brethren quoting scripture as if "proof" of their claims...

BTW, can you prove that that reading is the "only way" to properly understand it?...have you literally spoken to God, because otherwise, I'm pretty sure there is no absolute proof of any interpretation.

[MDlaxfan76]

I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.

I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?

Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.

Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.

Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit? And how the F would you know otherwise?

[Brooklyn]

yup, a very small percentage of Jews, even smaller the group you describe, holding quite fundamentalist, exclusive views of these texts. Many millions of Jews disagree about the reading of the text. I guess they're all wrong according to you? That's a heck of a lot of generations of rabbis and scholars...and you're right, they're wrong?

I'm not Jewish, but that's in my Bible as well and I don't remotely come to that conclusion any more than I come to the conclusion that you must be a Christian to get to heaven based on Jesus' teachings according to certain later writers...doesn't stop some of my brethren quoting scripture as if "proof" of their claims...

BTW, can you prove that that reading is the "only way" to properly understand it?...have you literally spoken to God, because otherwise, I'm pretty sure there is no absolute proof of any interpretation.

If you're so smart why don't you go ahead and have a debate with those rabbis? Show them how "smart" you are. I'll be very interested to see how great your knowledge of Hebrew is compared to them.

[Farfromgeneva]

yup, a very small percentage of Jews, even smaller the group you describe, holding quite fundamentalist, exclusive views of these texts. Many millions of Jews disagree about the reading of the text. I guess they're all wrong according to you? That's a heck of a lot of generations of rabbis and scholars...and you're right, they're wrong?

I'm not Jewish, but that's in my Bible as well and I don't remotely come to that conclusion any more than I come to the conclusion that you must be a Christian to get to heaven based on Jesus' teachings according to certain later writers...doesn't stop some of my brethren quoting scripture as if "proof" of their claims...

BTW, can you prove that that reading is the "only way" to properly understand it?...have you literally spoken to God, because otherwise, I'm pretty sure there is no absolute proof of any interpretation.

If you're so smart why don't you go ahead and have a debate with those rabbis? Show them how "smart" you are. I'll be very interested to see how great your knowledge of Hebrew is compared to them.

Don’t conflate domain knowledge with intellect when interpretation and synthesizing information is concerned. Mistake one shouldn’t make.

If those rabbis you love are legit they’d be more interested in educating than winning a debate and dunking on others.

[Matnum PI]

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited Israel Thursday to pledge that the United States will never falter from its support for Israel as he condemned Hamas’ “litany of brutality and inhumanity” as evoking “the worst of ISIS.”

“The message that I bring to Israel is this: you may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as America exists, you will never, ever have to,” Blinken said in remarks alongside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv. “We will always be there by your side.”...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/politics ... index.html

[youthathletics]

Such peaceful children, taught rather well

https://x.com/kylenabecker/status/17125 ... a82I2GssRg

Israeli children taught to hate Arabs to death: https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli ... U_enUS1067


Israeli children celebrating 9/11 attacks on WTC: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f55410db997 ... ImgRaw&r=0



Nazi children taught to hate and to kill: https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads ... h-life.jpg




Hate is a two way street. It's everywhere.

That was the point.....Brooklyn. So absolutely nothing is going to ever solve it, until it is solved absolutely. And that demands 1 of two things (i) either complete authentic forgiveness....peace or (ii) absence of religion that wants dominance over another.

Been rather quiet since the 30 Year War in the 1600's.

[cradleandshoot]

Such peaceful children, taught rather well

https://x.com/kylenabecker/status/17125 ... a82I2GssRg

Israeli children taught to hate Arabs to death: https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli ... U_enUS1067


Israeli children celebrating 9/11 attacks on WTC: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f55410db997 ... ImgRaw&r=0



Nazi children taught to hate and to kill: https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads ... h-life.jpg




Hate is a two way street. It's everywhere.

That was the point.....Brooklyn. So absolutely nothing is going to ever solve it, until it is solved absolutely. And that demands 1 of two things (i) either complete authentic forgiveness....peace or (ii) absence of religion that wants dominance over another.

Been rather quiet since the 30 Year War in the 1600's.

A simple thing I observed the other day on NBC no less. Gaza is being bombed into oblivion and Hamas still has the infrastructure to keep launching rockets into Israel. I'm DARN SURE Hamas will keep firing rockets until they don't have any more left or any place to launch them from. Won't that be so sad for the usual suspects on this forum.

[dislaxxic]

Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign ~The Jerusalem Post

Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found.

An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety.

Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.

The survey, which polled 620 Israeli Jews from across the country, also found that a majority of respondents believed Netanyahu should resign following the conclusion of Operation Swords of Iron.

Seems to belie Salty's assertion that "the population is rallying around" Bibi...

..

[PizzaSnake]

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited Israel Thursday to pledge that the United States will never falter from its support for Israel as he condemned Hamas’ “litany of brutality and inhumanity” as evoking “the worst of ISIS.”

“The message that I bring to Israel is this: you may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as America exists, you will never, ever have to,” Blinken said in remarks alongside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv. “We will always be there by your side.”...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/politics ... index.html

Why? Does the US offer such assurance to any other nation?

Peculiar. Unparalleled. Immoderate.

[Farfromgeneva]

Such peaceful children, taught rather well

https://x.com/kylenabecker/status/17125 ... a82I2GssRg

Israeli children taught to hate Arabs to death: https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli ... U_enUS1067


Israeli children celebrating 9/11 attacks on WTC: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f55410db997 ... ImgRaw&r=0



Nazi children taught to hate and to kill: https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads ... h-life.jpg




Hate is a two way street. It's everywhere.

That was the point.....Brooklyn. So absolutely nothing is going to ever solve it, until it is solved absolutely. And that demands 1 of two things (i) either complete authentic forgiveness....peace or (ii) absence of religion that wants dominance over another.

Been rather quiet since the 30 Year War in the 1600's.

I just heard the siren call for chappelle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fKIwj1TQmFs

[old salt]

I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.

I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?

Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.

Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.

Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit? And how the F would you know otherwise?

Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.

[old salt]

Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign ~The Jerusalem Post

Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found.

An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety.

Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.

The survey, which polled 620 Israeli Jews from across the country, also found that a majority of respondents believed Netanyahu should resign following the conclusion of Operation Swords of Iron.

Seems to belie Salty's assertion that "the population is rallying around" Bibi...

Surprise. They're not happy to be invaded & they blame the govt in power.
A unity govt has been formed & it did not require Bibi's resignation to come together.
That poll was taken before the Unity govt was formed & Gantz joined.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.

I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?

Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.

Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.

Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit? And how the F would you know otherwise?

Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.

[Farfromgeneva]

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited Israel Thursday to pledge that the United States will never falter from its support for Israel as he condemned Hamas’ “litany of brutality and inhumanity” as evoking “the worst of ISIS.”

“The message that I bring to Israel is this: you may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as America exists, you will never, ever have to,” Blinken said in remarks alongside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv. “We will always be there by your side.”...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/politics ... index.html

Why? Does the US offer such assurance to any other nation?

Peculiar. Unparalleled. Immoderate.

Moral hazard and the wrong incentive structure is created by language and positions such as this.

[jhu72]

Such peaceful children, taught rather well

https://x.com/kylenabecker/status/17125 ... a82I2GssRg

Sweet kids who wanna blow up Jews, stab Jews and drive over them. We need to understand why they are so angry. I've been angry with quite a few people in my life. Never so angry I wanted to stab someone and drive over them and then blow them up. There is a whole lot of hostility in those young people. Is that really the message of Islam??

... no it is the message of the republiCON party! Nicky Haley told a similar lie on a video I just saw on Faux News 10 minutes ago. The message is don't worry about how many Palestinian kids the Israeli's kill, they are of no value. It is the same lie people have been telling about Jews and blacks, etc, since time began. The people spreading this message are not interested in anything but chaos. The only kids of any value are white! Stupid Nicky Haley wants to be president so bad, she doesn't stop to think, the people making this sh*t up will turn on her.

People need to engage brain and not just believe this kind of stuff.

[jhu72]

Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign ~The Jerusalem Post

Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found.

An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety.

Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.

The survey, which polled 620 Israeli Jews from across the country, also found that a majority of respondents believed Netanyahu should resign following the conclusion of Operation Swords of Iron.

Seems to belie Salty's assertion that "the population is rallying around" Bibi...

Surprise. They're not happy to be invaded & they blame the govt in power.
A unity govt has been formed & it did not require Bibi's resignation to come together.
That poll was taken before the Unity govt was formed & Gantz joined.

... it is more than that. Bibi has been selling himself as "Mr. I'll keep you safe". This has been his sales pitch his entire life. He didn't keep them safe. Even Trump is blaming Bibi.