Ivy League 2023

[The Orfling]

A great day for Yale. The Bulldogs beat Brown in a must-win game to grab the ILT tie-breaker against Brown, and they also benefit from Penn's win over Harvard -- Yale would have lost out to Penn in a 3-3 tiebreaker situation, but now Yale is (virtually, I think?) assured of at least a "tournament play-in game" against Harvard. Most importantly of all, Yale played its best defensive game of the season. Brown scored only two second half goals and, although two-thirds of Brown's 21 turnovers were not caused turnovers, Yale's controlled aggression on defense (only 1 penalty on the day) seemed like it contributed to some of what would be seen as unforced errors on a stat sheet (e.g. dropped inside feeds).

As the ESPN+ announcers said, "this is the Yale people thought we'd see this year." After the win over Brown, Yale is on a three-game winning streak heading into a Friday night game against Albany on the road and then, in two weeks, the showdown with the Cantabs with (I think?) an ILT berth on the line.

[pcowlax]

Great game from Yale, after a slow start a compete team effort. With their offense, if they can just hold teams to less than, say, 12 they should be in great shape, they don’t need to hold anyone to 6. As for Columbia, I am pretty sure Title IX is not based on number is team for men v women but roster slots relative to the number of each on campus. Football thus must be balanced by several women’s sports. They didn’t drop lax because of Title IX, obviously, but having dropped it years before the rule, the presence of the rule makes it much harder to add back.

[FannOLax]

For anyone interested, here is the Make it 8 website run by Columbia alumni trying to get varsity men's lacrosse at the NYC Ivy school.
https://www.makeit8.org/#:~:text=Founde ... ity%20team.
Men's lax has been a topic for many decades at Columbia, and it's tough to be optimistic about the prospects about it becoming a varsity sport. As an aside to an earlier comment, getting varsity ice hockey (men's and/or women's) would require a real investment as there is no suitable rink in the vicinity... but then, the Columbia golf teams have two home courses, one in Westchester County NY and one in NJ, so if there's a will, there's a way.

Back to lacrosse, congratulations to Cornell! The Ivy OOC record needs all the help it can get, and today's result in West Point definitely helps. I also think that Yale needs to win Friday in Albany if it is to make the NCAAs without winning the ILT. The Orfling's post here a while ago was a good one, so I won't repeat what he said except to say "well said." I will add that when Paquette is on his game, he is very good, like today. I think Cohen has improved notably this year and played a strong game today in defense... but then, De Muth and the entire defense looked good. Lyons, Lyons, Lyons, it's hard to pin down what makes him so good, but I'll say "versality," and "lacrosse IQ" and no doubt he benefits from playing with the likes of Brandau, Leo and Sharp.

[The Orfling]

Do we have one of our ILT experts to post about scenarios? It seems likely that Penn, Cornell, and Princeton will all get to at least four wins, and that Dartmouth will have at least 4 losses, and if so, Brown loses the tiebreaker against Harvard or Yale. But remind me what the tiebreakers are if there are two teams with 4 wins and four teams finishing 3-3? I'm not saying it's at all likely that Cornell or Princeton would lose their last two in a row, but stranger things have happened.

Scenario:

1. Penn beats Dartmouth, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
2. Princeton beats Cornell, loses to Harvard, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
3. Cornell loses its last two Ivy games (to Princeton and Brown) and finishes 3-3 (EDITED would hold tiebreaker over Yale)
4. Brown wins its last two Ivy games (over Cornell and Dartmouth to finish 3-3) (would hold tiebreaker over Cornell)
5. Harvard beats Princeton, loses to Yale and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreaker over Brown and Cornell)
6. Yale beats Harvard and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Brown and Harvard but not Cornell)

What happens next by way of additional levels of tiebreakers?

[joewillie78]

Do we have one of our ILT experts to post about scenarios? It seems likely that Penn, Cornell, and Princeton will all get to at least four wins, and that Dartmouth will have at least 4 losses, and if so, Brown loses the tiebreaker against Harvard or Yale. But remind me what the tiebreakers are if there are two teams with 4 wins and four teams finishing 3-3? I'm not saying it's at all likely that Cornell or Princeton would lose their last two in a row, but stranger things have happened.

Scenario:

1. Penn beats Dartmouth, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
2. Princeton beats Cornell, loses to Harvard, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
3. Cornell loses its last two Ivy games (to Princeton and Brown) and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Harvard and Yale)
4. Brown wins its last two Ivy games (over Cornell and Dartmouth to finish 3-3) (would hold tiebreaker over Cornell)
5. Harvard beats Princeton, loses to Yale and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreaker over Brown and Cornell)
6. Yale beats Harvard and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Brown and Harvard but not Cornell)

What happens next by way of tiebreakers?

Your #3 for Cornell is wrong. We do not hold the tiebreaker over Harvard. They beat Cornell.
Gobigred
Joewillie78

[The Orfling]

Do we have one of our ILT experts to post about scenarios? It seems likely that Penn, Cornell, and Princeton will all get to at least four wins, and that Dartmouth will have at least 4 losses, and if so, Brown loses the tiebreaker against Harvard or Yale. But remind me what the tiebreakers are if there are two teams with 4 wins and four teams finishing 3-3? I'm not saying it's at all likely that Cornell or Princeton would lose their last two in a row, but stranger things have happened.

Scenario:

1. Penn beats Dartmouth, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
2. Princeton beats Cornell, loses to Harvard, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
3. Cornell loses its last two Ivy games (to Princeton and Brown) and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Harvard and Yale)
4. Brown wins its last two Ivy games (over Cornell and Dartmouth to finish 3-3) (would hold tiebreaker over Cornell)
5. Harvard beats Princeton, loses to Yale and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreaker over Brown and Cornell)
6. Yale beats Harvard and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Brown and Harvard but not Cornell)

What happens next by way of tiebreakers?

Your #3 for Cornell is wrong. We do not hold the tiebreaker over Harvard. They beat Cornell.
Gobigred
Joewillie78

Good catch, edited. Odds are that both Princeton, Penn and Cornell all finish with at least 4 wins but you never know.

[Ice1570]

Do we have one of our ILT experts to post about scenarios? It seems likely that Penn, Cornell, and Princeton will all get to at least four wins, and that Dartmouth will have at least 4 losses, and if so, Brown loses the tiebreaker against Harvard or Yale. But remind me what the tiebreakers are if there are two teams with 4 wins and four teams finishing 3-3? I'm not saying it's at all likely that Cornell or Princeton would lose their last two in a row, but stranger things have happened.

Scenario:

1. Penn beats Dartmouth, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
2. Princeton beats Cornell, loses to Harvard, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
3. Cornell loses its last two Ivy games (to Princeton and Brown) and finishes 3-3 (EDITED would hold tiebreaker over Yale)
4. Brown wins its last two Ivy games (over Cornell and Dartmouth to finish 3-3) (would hold tiebreaker over Cornell)
5. Harvard beats Princeton, loses to Yale and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreaker over Brown and Cornell)
6. Yale beats Harvard and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Brown and Harvard but not Cornell)

What happens next by way of additional levels of tiebreakers?

In this scenario, Yale & Harvard would be in and Cornell and Brown would be out. Yale and Harvard would be 2-1 in the group of four tied teams and Cornell and Brown would be 1-2.

[The Orfling]

Do we have one of our ILT experts to post about scenarios? It seems likely that Penn, Cornell, and Princeton will all get to at least four wins, and that Dartmouth will have at least 4 losses, and if so, Brown loses the tiebreaker against Harvard or Yale. But remind me what the tiebreakers are if there are two teams with 4 wins and four teams finishing 3-3? I'm not saying it's at all likely that Cornell or Princeton would lose their last two in a row, but stranger things have happened.

Scenario:

1. Penn beats Dartmouth, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
2. Princeton beats Cornell, loses to Harvard, finishes 4-2: in the ILT
3. Cornell loses its last two Ivy games (to Princeton and Brown) and finishes 3-3 (EDITED would hold tiebreaker over Yale)
4. Brown wins its last two Ivy games (over Cornell and Dartmouth to finish 3-3) (would hold tiebreaker over Cornell)
5. Harvard beats Princeton, loses to Yale and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreaker over Brown and Cornell)
6. Yale beats Harvard and finishes 3-3 (would hold tiebreakers over Brown and Harvard but not Cornell)

What happens next by way of additional levels of tiebreakers?

In this scenario, Yale & Harvard would be in and Cornell and Brown would be out. Yale and Harvard would be 2-1 in the group of four tied teams and Cornell and Brown would be 1-2.

Thanks, Ice. I can't find a current list of ILT tiebreakers so I'd be interested if anyone else has found it online? The best I could find was an article from 2022 that discussed the tiebreakers in detail in the context of the 2022 Ivy season (it has a dead link to the Ivy Tournament site): https://www.collegelacrosse.net/post/me ... c-nec-2022

That article analyzed a possible 4-way 3-3 tie and said:

For the final two spots, we get a four-way tie between [Ivy 3], [Ivy 4], [Ivy 5], and [Ivy 6]. [Ivy 3] and [Ivy 4] are 2-1 against the three teams they faced, while [Ivy 5] and [Ivy 6] were 1-2. But the policy calls for a singular team to break the tie. Both [Ivy 5] and [Ivy 6] beat the top seed [Ivy 1, already in the ILT], which also does not fulfill the tiebreaker. So we go to goal differential between the [Ivy 3-Ivy 6] teams (maximum six goals per game).

So in my "quadrageddon" scenario, it seems like the steps would be:

1. Look at the records among the four 3-3 teams; 2 teams are 2-1 and 2 teams are 1-2, but no one team emerges, which seems required? (That's why I'd like to read the actual tiebreaker rules language.) So on to the next tiebreaker.

2. Next tiebreaker is who has beaten the highest seed not in the tie. If that's Penn in this scenario (4-2 but beat Princeton head to head) then Cornell and Brown would have beaten Penn, Harvard and Yale would have lost to Penn. Does this end the discussion and Cornell and Brown are in? Or does the policy call for a "singular team to break the tie" as the article suggests? If the latter, then proceed to the next tiebreak.

3. Goal differential in the games amongst the four tied teams. The article makes it seem like there needs to be a singular winner, and then the other three teams start the tiebreaker process over again.

I know I'm making myself crazy on this. I just need to wait and see until they publish the tiebreaker rules and the next round of Ivy games is played to possibly clarify things.

[faircornell]

Some strong individual performances during the week:

Chris Lyons, Yale: 8 points (7,1) vs Brown
Matt Brandau, Yale: 8 points (4,4) vs Brown
Coulter Mackesy, Princeton: 8 points (4,4) vs Dartmouth
Braedon Saris, Princeton: 7 points (2,5) vs Dartmouth
Cam Rubin, Penn: 5 points (4,1) vs Harvard
Michael Long, Cornell: 5 points (3,2) vs Army, 4 points (2,2) vs Marquette
Sam Handley, Penn: 4 points (2,2) vs Harvard
James Shipley, Penn: 4 points (2,2) vs Harvard
Ben Smith, Penn: 4 points (2,2) vs Harvard
CJ Kirst, Cornell: 2 points (0,2) vs Army, 8 points (6,2) vs Marquette

Defense:

Michael Giaoforcaro, Princeton: 12 saves, 71% vs Dartmouth
Emmet Carroll, Penn: 16 saves, 64% vs Harvard
Jared Parquuette, Yale: 15 saves, 60% vs Brown
Chayse Ierlan, Cornell: 12 saves, 55% vs Army

Other strong performances:

Devon McLane, Brown: 4 points (1,3) vs Yale
Nick Loring, Harvard: 3 points (3,0) vs Penn
Logan Ip, Harvard: 2 points (2,0) vs Penn (Rookie)
Matthew Gunty 21/28 Face-off (71%) vs Yake
Nate Davis, Dartmouth: 3 points (3,0) vs Princeton

Possible ROW:

Logan Ip, Harvard
Jack Cascadden, Cornell

Any suggestions or corrections welcomed (especially ROW)

[FannOLax]

Some very strong 8-point performances in conference wins, but I think Long's presence in both of Cornell's OOC wins might be the most significant. Seems he might need to play his way back into full game shape, but he makes the Big Red a better team. This is not a year with a lot of Ivy rookies shining, although Dartmouth has had a few first-years put in strong games. The competition is intense for All Ivy goalie this year. Thank you Faircornell for assembling this list every week.

[Ezra White]

Some very strong 8-point performances in conference wins, but I think Long's presence in both of Cornell's OOC wins might be the most significant. Seems he might need to play his way back into full game shape, but he makes the Big Red a better team. This is not a year with a lot of Ivy rookies shining, although Dartmouth has had a few first-years put in strong games. The competition is intense for All Ivy goalie this year. Thank you Faircornell for assembling this list every week.

Cornell's rookie Cascadden has been a revelation at FOGO. But unless they're Ierlanesque, they are frequently overlooked.

[FannOLax]

Some very strong 8-point performances in conference wins, but I think Long's presence in both of Cornell's OOC wins might be the most significant. Seems he might need to play his way back into full game shape, but he makes the Big Red a better team. This is not a year with a lot of Ivy rookies shining, although Dartmouth has had a few first-years put in strong games. The competition is intense for All Ivy goalie this year. Thank you Faircornell for assembling this list every week.

Cornell's rookie Cascadden has been a revelation at FOGO. But unless they're Ierlanesque, they are frequently overlooked.

My oversight, perhaps because Cascadden didn't take many draws against Yale. Cornell's Staub has also showed plenty of promise.

This week:
POW to Yale's Lyons
ROW to Princeton FOGO McMeekin

HONOR ROLL
Sam Cooper, Dartmouth (Fr., G - Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.)
Logan Ip, Harvard (Fr., M – Newport Coast, Calif.)
Coulter Mackesy, Princeton (So., A – Bronxville, N.Y.)
Michael Long, Cornell (Sr., A – Mendham, N.J.)
Peter Rizzotti, Dartmouth (5th., D/LSM – Sudbury, Mass.)
Nick Loring, Harvard (Sr., M – Dedham, Mass.)
Emmet Carroll, Penn (Jr., G – Rye, N.Y.)
Cam Rubin, Penn (Jr., A – Natick, Mass.)
Matt Brandau, Yale (Sr., A – Timonium, Md.)

Good to see Long recognized. Ierlan and Paquette might (should) have made M this week.

https://ivyleague.com/news/2023/4/17/ya ... wards.aspx

[faircornell]

Some very strong 8-point performances in conference wins, but I think Long's presence in both of Cornell's OOC wins might be the most significant. Seems he might need to play his way back into full game shape, but he makes the Big Red a better team. This is not a year with a lot of Ivy rookies shining, although Dartmouth has had a few first-years put in strong games. The competition is intense for All Ivy goalie this year. Thank you Faircornell for assembling this list every week.

Cornell's rookie Cascadden has been a revelation at FOGO. But unless they're Ierlanesque, they are frequently overlooked.

My oversight, perhaps because Cascadden didn't take many draws against Yale. Cornell's Staub has also showed plenty of promise.

This week:
POW to Yale's Lyons
ROW to Princeton FOGO McMeekin

HONOR ROLL
Sam Cooper, Dartmouth (Fr., G - Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.)
Logan Ip, Harvard (Fr., M – Newport Coast, Calif.)
Coulter Mackesy, Princeton (So., A – Bronxville, N.Y.)
Michael Long, Cornell (Sr., A – Mendham, N.J.)
Peter Rizzotti, Dartmouth (5th., D/LSM – Sudbury, Mass.)
Nick Loring, Harvard (Sr., M – Dedham, Mass.)
Emmet Carroll, Penn (Jr., G – Rye, N.Y.)
Cam Rubin, Penn (Jr., A – Natick, Mass.)
Matt Brandau, Yale (Sr., A – Timonium, Md.)

Good to see Long recognised. Ierlan and Paquette might (should) have made M this week.

https://ivyleague.com/news/2023/4/17/ya ... wards.aspx

Thanks for posting this, FannOLax. It is interesting that there is no dominant rookie in the Ivy League this year. It might indicate a generally stronger league as far as general lacrosse playing is concerned. Brandau and Kirst have reached Jeff Teat status, where a super-human performance is required for recognition.

[faircornell]

Princeton posted on social media that they had their "ticket punched" to the ILT. I'm not sure how they can say that at 3-1, but I'm sure that they have done the analysis.

[The Orfling]

Princeton posted on social media that they had their "ticket punched" to the ILT. I'm not sure how they can say that at 3-1, but I'm sure that they have done the analysis.

I think they said they'd been notified by the league office? They must have run all the different scenarios with remaining games and tiebreakers.

[DocBarrister]

For anyone interested, here is the Make it 8 website run by Columbia alumni trying to get varsity men's lacrosse at the NYC Ivy school.
https://www.makeit8.org/#:~:text=Founde ... ity%20team.
Men's lax has been a topic for many decades at Columbia, and it's tough to be optimistic about the prospects about it becoming a varsity sport. As an aside to an earlier comment, getting varsity ice hockey (men's and/or women's) would require a real investment as there is no suitable rink in the vicinity... but then, the Columbia golf teams have two home courses, one in Westchester County NY and one in NJ, so if there's a will, there's a way.

Back to lacrosse, congratulations to Cornell! The Ivy OOC record needs all the help it can get, and today's result in West Point definitely helps. I also think that Yale needs to win Friday in Albany if it is to make the NCAAs without winning the ILT. The Orfling's post here a while ago was a good one, so I won't repeat what he said except to say "well said." I will add that when Paquette is on his game, he is very good, like today. I think Cohen has improved notably this year and played a strong game today in defense... but then, De Muth and the entire defense looked good. Lyons, Lyons, Lyons, it's hard to pin down what makes him so good, but I'll say "versality," and "lacrosse IQ" and no doubt he benefits from playing with the likes of Brandau, Leo and Sharp.

I have never fully understood why Columbia doesn’t have a varsity lacrosse program. Less than diverse player pool? Lack of funding?

With ready access to upstate NY and LI, and competing for students with Princeton, Penn, and Hopkins, they would be able to recruit a decent team.

But everything is more expensive to do in NYC.

DocBarrister

[FannOLax]

For anyone interested, here is the Make it 8 website run by Columbia alumni trying to get varsity men's lacrosse at the NYC Ivy school.
https://www.makeit8.org/#:~:text=Founde ... ity%20team.
Men's lax has been a topic for many decades at Columbia, and it's tough to be optimistic about the prospects about it becoming a varsity sport. As an aside to an earlier comment, getting varsity ice hockey (men's and/or women's) would require a real investment as there is no suitable rink in the vicinity... but then, the Columbia golf teams have two home courses, one in Westchester County NY and one in NJ, so if there's a will, there's a way.

Back to lacrosse, congratulations to Cornell! The Ivy OOC record needs all the help it can get, and today's result in West Point definitely helps. I also think that Yale needs to win Friday in Albany if it is to make the NCAAs without winning the ILT. The Orfling's post here a while ago was a good one, so I won't repeat what he said except to say "well said." I will add that when Paquette is on his game, he is very good, like today. I think Cohen has improved notably this year and played a strong game today in defense... but then, De Muth and the entire defense looked good. Lyons, Lyons, Lyons, it's hard to pin down what makes him so good, but I'll say "versality," and "lacrosse IQ" and no doubt he benefits from playing with the likes of Brandau, Leo and Sharp.

I have never fully understood why Columbia doesn’t have a varsity lacrosse program. Less than diverse player pool? Lack of funding?

With ready access to upstate NY and LI, and competing for students with Princeton, Penn, and Hopkins, they would be able to recruit a decent team.

But everything is more expensive to do in NYC.

DocBarrister

My time as a graduate student at Columbia coincided with the end of Al Paul's stint as Columbia Athletic Director. Al was from Baltimore, and was a three-sport athlete at Western Maryland College (later/now known as McDaniel). Yes, one of those three sports was lacrosse. He did a lot for Columbia athletics, including the expansion / gut modernization of the outdoor athletic complex in the Inwood area of northernmost Manhattan, including the football stadium that will be hosting this year's ILT (as it did in 2018 and 2019) and a spanking brand-new soccer stadium soon after Columbia men's soccer finished D1 runners up to Indiana U (in 2OT). He went on record as saying he really wanted Columbia to have varsity men's lacrosse, but it just wasn't possible. I'm not sure exactly why it wasn't possible. It couldn't have been a sad irony that he oversaw the merging of the Columbia and Barnard athletic teams, because by then Columbia was already coed. Yes, everything is expensive in Manhattan, and for Columbia most outdoor sports are at least several miles away from the main Morningside Heights campus. I would very much like Columbia to have varsity men's lacrosse, but I just cannot be optimistic that it will happen in my lifetime.

[notentitled]

I went to the last ILT at Columbia. I was disappointed that they had eliminated parking by the Harlem river. When attending a football game, it was a nice place to tailgate.

[Brownlax]

I went to the last ILT at Columbia. I was disappointed that they had eliminated parking by the Harlem river. When attending a football game, it was a nice place to tailgate.

Parking was BRUTAL at the last Ivy Championship at Columbia. I had to park a 1/2 mile away.

[FannOLax]

I went to the last ILT at Columbia. I was disappointed that they had eliminated parking by the Harlem river. When attending a football game, it was a nice place to tailgate.

When was there parking / tailgating by the river? No parking lot nowadays, so I guess it's a matter of driving around looking for on-street parking. I've never done that. I have always used the subway (two or three lines have stops nearby). The MetroNorth commuter train's Hudson line is also a viable option.