Maryland 2023

[viho]

Very Belichick-esk.

Bravo Coach Tillman.

[MDlaxfan76]

Interesting discussion, probably why we all participate on here...a place to vent !

I didn't see this go down 'live', but watched some of the coverage through Twitter etc...

First: Sure looks to me like Tillman knew what he was doing, small (given FOGO dominance) incremental advantage to secure possession with score tied short time left. A "question" at that moment, in that circumstance, he has to know is asking for a ruling, a call, an advantage. While "ticky-tack", I actually don't have a problem with doing so within the rules.

However, I don't like his denial.

Second: Myers losing his cool likely does more damage than the possession advantage, but I understand him being upset. The big mistake is when he talks at the Maryland players. Out of bounds, poor sportsmanship, bad leadership.

Third: Stupid rule, there's no field advantage gained by color of glove. IF actually meant to be enforced with any sort of penalty, then should be a pre-game check matter...if during the game need to switch equipment, get permission through box ref. At most the 'penalty' pre-whistle blowing should be player leaves the field and can't return until right equipment. Akin to too many on field before whistle...it's on the refs to make sure field is set before blowing whistle, no penalty.

Fourth: I don't know whether Tillman truly did intend to avoid the handshake, but if so, that's unsportsmanlike. Seems to me it's incumbent on him to demonstrate sportsmanship, regardless of being asked for an interview...you can either do the interview after shaking the opponent team's hands, or hustle over afterward...I prefer telling the reporters to hold on, but either way make the effort to acknowledge your opponent's players and coaches. Look 'em in the eye.

Fifth: So, IMO, both coaches erred, not behaving with sportsmanship. Maryland team won the game.

Sixth: Not all coaches are good sports...

As to coaching acumen, I much prefer Tillman to Myers. But that's a different topic.

The timing of the interview is not at Tillman's discretion. It's live TV and the B1G Network tells the coach when he has to be available. Myers was on tilt at everything; he was snarking and pointing at Maryland's celebration (which every team does), then he was in a froth when Tillman was in the interview. He just lost all composure.

Myers' coaching performance was similar to Tillman's in 2019 against UVA. Blew a 5 goal lead due to FOGO domination and playing not to lose. Except Terps got screwed by a horrible call that actually decided the game, ending the Terps' season. The difference? Tillman acted with grace and class.

I didn't see the rest, other than what was shown on the Twitter linked earlier, so I don't know how Myers behaved during the interview, etc. I'm willing to take your word for it that he was still losing it. Pretty clear he has a composure issue.

As to being forced to do the interview prior to the handshakes, I don't know if that's 100% the case, but that's why I said I didn't know, couldn't tell, what Tillman's actual intentions were...but presumably he had an opportunity to shake hands post interview and/or otherwise be gracious in congratulating the Ohio State team on a hard fought battle. Showing sportsmanship, even if you don't like the opponent, is an element that we can consider important to the leadership of these teams...or not.

It's clearly not required.

My issue with Tillman, as I expressed, was his denial of what he'd done to get the call. I don't take issue with asking for ruling/call, though, sure, "tacky-tack", as I want my coach to look for every advantage for my team, within the rules. But I do take issue with the denial. Own it. Just say, "we look for every advantage within the rules, and we expect our opponents to do likewise".

[Wheels]

https://twitter.com/GregBeast32/status/ ... 9495372804

This is actually what I thought was happening specifically related to FOGO play. Coach at any level of the game where face-offs happen and refs will call this an infraction. FOGOs aren't supposed to have their gloves on the throat of the stick, so refs need to be able to see a contrast in colors to make sure players don't have their gloves on the throat of the stick. Hell, in a U12 game I coached years ago, we had a kid with a white shaft and white head. The refs gave us an option: put color tape up to the throat of the stick OR use another stick. But we lost possession without a face-off because of it. Trying to find black or any other color tape in the middle of the game wasn't easy! So the kid couldn't take a face-off for the remainder of the game.

So I didn't think it was just about matching the color of gloves. I thought it was a FOGO-specific thing because the coloring can lead to an advantage.

I remember one year, too, when refs cracked down on the face paint the kids used. A ref actually read our team the rule on how much eye black they could use (one stripe under each eye!). Imagine how sad some kids were to have to remove their Braveheart face paintings.

[tech37]

You guys are a joke with your unwritten-rule boomer bs. This forum loves nothing more than clutching its pearls. You’re worse than baseball purists.

you sound like a big jose canseco fan.

Another entirely unwanted wgdsr comment in the terps thread. I’m not sure there’s anyone whose opinion I care about less than yours.

Ha! Oh right...buried in all the sh!t, guy made what is probably the most sensible post on here:

"ftr, and this is just an educated guess... if there was a penalty to be assessed, i believe it should have been on the opening faceoff. i don't believe a ref is supposed to pull that call into the game. especially if "he didn't call for a glove check". refs (and coaches) are supposed to make these determinations and certifications pregame. and if not fixed, assessed right away"

Most are broken-brain comments on this thread, especially last night... and here I thought that happened on the politics page only.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://twitter.com/GregBeast32/status/ ... 9495372804

This is actually what I thought was happening specifically related to FOGO play. Coach at any level of the game where face-offs happen and refs will call this an infraction. FOGOs aren't supposed to have their gloves on the throat of the stick, so refs need to be able to see a contrast in colors to make sure players don't have their gloves on the throat of the stick. Hell, in a U12 game I coached years ago, we had a kid with a white shaft and white head. The refs gave us an option: put color tape up to the throat of the stick OR use another stick. But we lost possession without a face-off because of it. Trying to find black or any other color tape in the middle of the game wasn't easy! So the kid couldn't take a face-off for the remainder of the game.

So I didn't think it was just about matching the color of gloves. I thought it was a FOGO-specific thing because the coloring can lead to an advantage.

I remember one year, too, when refs cracked down on the face paint the kids used. A ref actually read our team the rule on how much eye black they could use (one stripe under each eye!). Imagine how sad some kids were to have to remove their Braveheart face paintings.

mmm, that wasn't the explanation given, it was that he had a different color than the rest of the team. Perhaps someone has a picture of his gloves, stick, color of tape etc, that would actually be a FOGO specific issue, but that doesn't seem to have been what Tillman asked about...according to Tillman...

Note, the rule you are describing would make some sense, though. Is it in the NCAA rule book?

[Wheels]

I didn't see the rest, other than what was shown on the Twitter linked earlier, so I don't know how Myers behaved during the interview, etc. I'm willing to take your word for it that he was still losing it. Pretty clear he has a composure issue.

As to being forced to do the interview prior to the handshakes, I don't know if that's 100% the case, but that's why I said I didn't know, couldn't tell, what Tillman's actual intentions were...but presumably he had an opportunity to shake hands post interview and/or otherwise be gracious in congratulating the Ohio State team on a hard fought battle. Showing sportsmanship, even if you don't like the opponent, is an element that we can consider important to the leadership of these teams...or not.

It's clearly not required.

My issue with Tillman, as I expressed, was his denial of what he'd done to get the call. I don't take issue with asking for ruling/call, though, sure, "tacky-tack", as I want my coach to look for every advantage for my team, within the rules. But I do take issue with the denial. Own it. Just say, "we look for every advantage within the rules, and we expect our opponents to do likewise".

According to IL, he double downed on it in the post-game Zoom. Specifically, he said that the only equipment check requested by either team was Myers's request (in a fit of rage) to have Wierman's stick checked. The stick was within standards, so Myers looked even sillier. Total Wile E. Coyote moment there for him.

Of course, Tills knew that just "asking a question" would lead to the refs talking about it. Otherwise, why ask the question at all?

Keep in mind, too, that once Maryland got possession, Ryan Siracusa went down the alley, took a whack to his helmet that was audible on TV, and refs didn't call the slash...because they knew Myers was already lit. Dixon noted the slash, lack of call, and reason for the lack of the call on the replay.

So, what exactly are we talking about here? Tills "asked" the refs about equipment. The refs gave possession to Maryland. Myers threw a tantrum. The refs then buried their flags on an obvious slash. Maryland turned the ball over. OSU sat on the ball for a minute and didn't get a good shot. Maryland won in overtime.

People saying that Maryland won because of the glove issue didn't watch the game. Unless they're saying that Tillman drove Myers berserk, which incapacitated him from coaching his team.

In that case, meep-meep...

[MDlaxfan76]

I didn't see the rest, other than what was shown on the Twitter linked earlier, so I don't know how Myers behaved during the interview, etc. I'm willing to take your word for it that he was still losing it. Pretty clear he has a composure issue.

As to being forced to do the interview prior to the handshakes, I don't know if that's 100% the case, but that's why I said I didn't know, couldn't tell, what Tillman's actual intentions were...but presumably he had an opportunity to shake hands post interview and/or otherwise be gracious in congratulating the Ohio State team on a hard fought battle. Showing sportsmanship, even if you don't like the opponent, is an element that we can consider important to the leadership of these teams...or not.

It's clearly not required.

My issue with Tillman, as I expressed, was his denial of what he'd done to get the call. I don't take issue with asking for ruling/call, though, sure, "tacky-tack", as I want my coach to look for every advantage for my team, within the rules. But I do take issue with the denial. Own it. Just say, "we look for every advantage within the rules, and we expect our opponents to do likewise".

According to IL, he double downed on it in the post-game Zoom. Specifically, he said that the only equipment check requested by either team was Myers's request (in a fit of rage) to have Wierman's stick checked. The stick was within standards, so Myers looked even sillier. Total Wile E. Coyote moment there for him.

Of course, Tills knew that just "asking a question" would lead to the refs talking about it. Otherwise, why ask the question at all?

Keep in mind, too, that once Maryland got possession, Ryan Siracusa went down the alley, took a whack to his helmet that was audible on TV, and refs didn't call the slash...because they knew Myers was already lit. Dixon noted the slash, lack of call, and reason for the lack of the call on the replay.

So, what exactly are we talking about here? Tills "asked" the refs about equipment. The refs gave possession to Maryland. Myers threw a tantrum. The refs then buried their flags on an obvious slash. Maryland turned the ball over. OSU sat on the ball for a minute and didn't get a good shot. Maryland won in overtime.

People saying that Maryland won because of the glove issue didn't watch the game. Unless they're saying that Tillman drove Myers berserk, which incapacitated him from coaching his team.

In that case, meep-meep...

Sounds like the refs also lost control if they ignored a slash to the head.

The only time I want a coach to show he's actually upset with refereeing is if a player is put into physical danger and the refs don't react to protect the players.

[HopFan16]

Wasn't a FOGO specific issue. I don't think Gurenlian watched the game. Fritz's stick and gloves were in compliance with the rules for FOGOs. It was because his gloves were different from those of his teammates' — that is the violation Tillman "asked" about and the one that was ultimately called

Again — teammates wearing different colored gloves is very common. Tillman very likely knew that but decided he was going to play that card for the first and only time last night against Myers.

[wgdsr]

You guys are a joke with your unwritten-rule boomer bs. This forum loves nothing more than clutching its pearls. You’re worse than baseball purists.

you sound like a big jose canseco fan.

Another entirely unwanted wgdsr comment in the terps thread. I’m not sure there’s anyone whose opinion I care about less than yours.

Ha! Oh right...buried in all the sh!t, guy made what is probably the most sensible post on here:

"ftr, and this is just an educated guess... if there was a penalty to be assessed, i believe it should have been on the opening faceoff. i don't believe a ref is supposed to pull that call into the game. especially if "he didn't call for a glove check". refs (and coaches) are supposed to make these determinations and certifications pregame. and if not fixed, assessed right away"

Most are broken-brain comments on this thread, especially last night... and here I thought that happened on the politics page only.

in a summer heat club game... we were playing in a bracket with... myers' squad! he was prowling the sidelines & coaching, although my memory is letting another coach be the lead guy.

wheels' same fogo color glove/stick came up from the refs in our bracket. rule at the time (and now) was tape was needed if the same. my guys had it, other teams didn't. also had more colored tape avail in case we ran into refs like this and wanted other guys to faceoff. so the rest of the day, was passing out neon tape to myers' team and others pregame. only wish i saw it if myers' squad had been assessed a technical early on!

[youthathletics]

Wasn't a FOGO specific issue. I don't think Gurenlian watched the game. Fritz's stick and gloves were in compliance with the rules for FOGOs. It was because his gloves were different from those of his teammates' — that is the violation Tillman "asked" about and the one that was ultimately called

Again — teammates wearing different colored gloves is very common. Tillman very likely knew that but decided he was going to play that card for the first and only time last night against Myers.

Interesting, there is wiggle room if the FOGO wears a different style glove than the team and that different style glove of the same color was damaged, unsafe, or illegal in some way. Ref's, in theory, should have given OSU a chance to make it right "if" there was a safety issue.

I do understand the pre-game 'certification of properly quipped' is a warning, which allows for zero tolerance thereafter.

It is a damned shame our sport continually trips on its own kciD.

[CU88]

Myers lost the game for his kids, with the offense rolling up 5 and holding the ball for 78 seconds every possession for the rest of the game. Caught up to them. Resilient comeback for the Terps.

+1

[runrussellrun]

You guys are a joke with your unwritten-rule boomer bs. This forum loves nothing more than clutching its pearls. You’re worse than baseball purists.

you sound like a big jose canseco fan.

Another entirely unwanted wgdsr comment in the terps thread. I’m not sure there’s anyone whose opinion I care about less than yours.

Ha! Oh right...buried in all the sh!t, guy made what is probably the most sensible post on here:

"ftr, and this is just an educated guess... if there was a penalty to be assessed, i believe it should have been on the opening faceoff. i don't believe a ref is supposed to pull that call into the game. especially if "he didn't call for a glove check". refs (and coaches) are supposed to make these determinations and certifications pregame. and if not fixed, assessed right away"

Most are broken-brain comments on this thread, especially last night... and here I thought that happened on the politics page only.

in a summer heat club game... we were playing in a bracket with... myers' squad! he was prowling the sidelines & coaching, although my memory is letting another coach be the lead guy.

wheels' same fogo color glove/stick came up from the refs in our bracket. rule at the time (and now) was tape was needed if the same. my guys had it, other teams didn't. also had more colored tape avail in case we ran into refs like this and wanted other guys to faceoff. so the rest of the day, was passing out neon tape to myers' team and others pregame. only wish i saw it if myers' squad had been assessed a technical early on!

bottom line.......many rules are just silly.

What's next.....the colours are NOT contrasting enough!

" Ref.....that hue of yellow, is more burnt sienna, and the gloves are black and blue "

people write these rules .....like they are DOING something to improve the "game" Dudes....good luck reffing a faceoff and noticing a players glove sliding up the throat. Whatever.

If Coach Tillman IS really on the rules committee....howz about we finally have a clear, concrete rule about what to do with a broken stick....seems to be lots of $100 shafts "breaking"

[The Orfling]

Great comeback for the Terps. On "GloveGate," coming at this from the perspective a major college lacrosse fan who is personally very favorably disposed to John Tillman (he's supportive of his alums and always kind to HS coaches/athletic directors) as well as recognizing that he's at the top of the pantheon:

The issue for me is not him being a gear aesthetics whistleblower in the first place. As the Princeton stick check showed in the most recent example of this side of Tillman's coaching prior to last night's game, tactical use of the rulebook is part of John Tillman's arsenal and if you're playing the Terps it's something to anticipate. My issue is the mealy-mouthed and even silly postgame denial of what he did: ask for an obscure equipment check at a crucial juncture of a tied game by saying "hey I was just asking a question." As a pro-Tillman person I really cringed when I read that.

With that said, nice win for Maryland. GloveGate will fade into memory.

[Testudo]

Rules are rules whether you liked or not. What's lost in the shuffle. (You have a Head Coach of a Major College Lacrosse Program, Screaming and Cursing at Another team and challenging Kids and Coaches). Watch the videos. Keeps getting closer and closer as he walks towards The Terps Sideline).
Meyers needs to act like his been there before. (Oh I'm sorry, he hasn't).

[runrussellrun]

Rules are rules, eh ?

Pretty sure the N$aa mens lacrosse rule book has wording describing interaction between coaches and officials.

Interpretation of this wording means these coach-ref fireside chats are NOT allowed....(the trail official is chatting with Tillman at
two minutes, 43 of the game )

.....yet, happen.

Some rules, are just rules. The actual words (edit/added) below reflect what?

What's next, mouthpiece checks..... because only CERTAIN types can be used, right ? are they REALLY covering all upper teeth?

These words are from the N$aa mens lacrosse rule book:

Only the head coach will communicate with the officials. Officials shall
address questions from the head coaches during halftime. A representative from
each team may be present while these questions are discussed. Officials should
never entertain any questions until a representative of the other team is given
the opportunity to be present


bottomline, the officials didn't have a great day. End of 4th, ALL 3 of the officials eyes were on the OSU ball carrier, who was bottom right with. They clearly missed a "flag down" when an OSU got knocked to his ass with 11 seconds left in the game. Dude, that is the "trail officials" job. Trainer clearly did a technical, but no official was looking at the hole/crease. Off ball, their job. yikes.

[masondixonlax]

Rules are rules, eh ?

Pretty sure the N$aa mens lacrosse rule book has wording describing interaction between coaches and officials.

Interpretation of this wording means these coach-ref fireside chats are NOT allowed....(the trail official is chatting with Tillman at
two minutes, 43 of the game )

.....yet, happen.

Some rules, are just rules. The actual words (edit/added) below reflect what?

What's next, mouthpiece checks..... because only CERTAIN types can be used, right ? are they REALLY covering all upper teeth?

These words are from the N$aa mens lacrosse rule book:

Only the head coach will communicate with the officials. Officials shall
address questions from the head coaches during halftime. A representative from
each team may be present while these questions are discussed. Officials should
never entertain any questions until a representative of the other team is given
the opportunity to be present


bottomline, the officials didn't have a great day. End of 4th, ALL 3 of the officials eyes were on the OSU ball carrier, who was bottom right with. They clearly missed a "flag down" when an OSU got knocked to his ass with 11 seconds left in the game. Dude, that is the "trail officials" job. Trainer clearly did a technical, but no official was looking at the hole/crease. Off ball, their job. yikes.

Yea.., you can play both sides to that tho. They took a goal away from Kelly at the end of the 3rd when he was pushed in the back in the crease and scored

[chuckbuckthecanuck]

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I always liked Tillman but last night was the epitome of hypocracy.

If Tillman would have said so what if my face-off guy is winning 90% I want the ball and 100% is better that 90% so I do what I have to do to win. I know the rules and will use them to win regardless how esoteric of BS they may be. If you, Myers or anyone else doesn’t like it too bad because we got the win.

That may be a hard a$$ approach but at least it is an honest one and it was the one that he took last night.

Tillman’s Ned Flanders/Gomer Pyle act on the last face-off of the game of:

well you know, I just sort of suggested to the ref that isn’t there possibly of some type of rule that you may to look up? Shazam you mean Ohio State looses possession, well I’ll be darned! Imagine that! Aw shucks, I would have shook Myers hand but I got called for this interview, yuk, yuk, yuk.

[JHU69]

https://twitter.com/GregBeast32/status/ ... 9495372804

This is actually what I thought was happening specifically related to FOGO play. Coach at any level of the game where face-offs happen and refs will call this an infraction. FOGOs aren't supposed to have their gloves on the throat of the stick, so refs need to be able to see a contrast in colors to make sure players don't have their gloves on the throat of the stick. Hell, in a U12 game I coached years ago, we had a kid with a white shaft and white head. The refs gave us an option: put color tape up to the throat of the stick OR use another stick. But we lost possession without a face-off because of it. Trying to find black or any other color tape in the middle of the game wasn't easy! So the kid couldn't take a face-off for the remainder of the game.

So I didn't think it was just about matching the color of gloves. I thought it was a FOGO-specific thing because the coloring can lead to an advantage.

I remember one year, too, when refs cracked down on the face paint the kids used. A ref actually read our team the rule on how much eye black they could use (one stripe under each eye!). Imagine how sad some kids were to have to remove their Braveheart face paintings.

mmm, that wasn't the explanation given, it was that he had a different color than the rest of the team. Perhaps someone has a picture of his gloves, stick, color of tape etc, that would actually be a FOGO specific issue, but that doesn't seem to have been what Tillman asked about...according to Tillman...

Note, the rule you are describing would make some sense, though. Is it in the NCAA rule book?

He said U12.

[OCanada]

I do not believe it credible Tillman think he could wait for an opportunity to get a call and gain possession. I doubt he does either. Hypotheticals are interesting

Based on IL's reporting of his post-game comments, it seems he thought it would be an actual penalty.

Thanks for the data point. I was thinking back on a few times there was a rule violation, the officials knew it and no penalty was called regardless. I know a couple i do not believe would turn over possession at that point. Hypothetically speaking

[MDlaxfan76]

https://twitter.com/GregBeast32/status/ ... 9495372804

This is actually what I thought was happening specifically related to FOGO play. Coach at any level of the game where face-offs happen and refs will call this an infraction. FOGOs aren't supposed to have their gloves on the throat of the stick, so refs need to be able to see a contrast in colors to make sure players don't have their gloves on the throat of the stick. Hell, in a U12 game I coached years ago, we had a kid with a white shaft and white head. The refs gave us an option: put color tape up to the throat of the stick OR use another stick. But we lost possession without a face-off because of it. Trying to find black or any other color tape in the middle of the game wasn't easy! So the kid couldn't take a face-off for the remainder of the game.

So I didn't think it was just about matching the color of gloves. I thought it was a FOGO-specific thing because the coloring can lead to an advantage.

I remember one year, too, when refs cracked down on the face paint the kids used. A ref actually read our team the rule on how much eye black they could use (one stripe under each eye!). Imagine how sad some kids were to have to remove their Braveheart face paintings.

mmm, that wasn't the explanation given, it was that he had a different color than the rest of the team. Perhaps someone has a picture of his gloves, stick, color of tape etc, that would actually be a FOGO specific issue, but that doesn't seem to have been what Tillman asked about...according to Tillman...

Note, the rule you are describing would make some sense, though. Is it in the NCAA rule book?

He said U12.

Yes, fully understood...it's also the practice in NCAA, I think, though I don't recall the rule.