Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse

[wahoomurf]

In the interest of full disclosure, my son is on the team, and for that reason, I try to avoid this page. However, it is hard not to read it and comment. So, here it goes. No one is happy with the W-L record this year — not the coaches, not the players, not the parents. Contrary to what one poster said here, there is not a ho-hum attitude by the coaches and players after a loss. I have stood there and seen players in tears and the frustration on coaches’ faces. There is a real desire to win. Why aren’t they winning? I will leave that to the lacrosse experts, but having only two FOGOs on a DI roster (and having both hurt) has been a real problem. That certainly is a legitimate reason to criticize the coaches.

The players all seem to like each other and get along, despite the friction that could arise from the freshmen and sophomores playing over the seniors and many juniors. The players like the coaches and in particular, believe in and buy into what Joe Conner has brought. The offense needs to improve. Whether that will happen, again I leave to the experts.

There is a belief that the foundation is there. Two very good (and maybe great) goalies. A very solid young defense with more good D men coming in next year. The big questions are FOGO and more offense. The two FOGOs on the roster this year are back, and two more coming next year. Having 4 FOGOs in and of itself will make a huge difference. Going into Princeton tomorrow there are 0 playing. As for offense, time will tell.

There is a great need and anticipation of the indoor facility. The Friends seem to be working hard to get additional support and funding in place.
The players and coaches want desperately to win. Now, they just need to find a way to do it.

Thanks for posting.I noticed one of the FOGOs wasn't in the lineup for a few games.Great kid.Hope he recovers soon.

[wahoomurf]

wahoomurf:Tommy Rogan, a 2 sport star at Chaminade H.S. (Mineola, Long Island,N.Y.),is heading to Hanover. Many thought he'd go to Yale where his father played quarter back for Cozza. Moreover,Shay and Moran are on each other's speed dial.And there's always a few Chaminade guys on the Yale team.Nonetheless he chose Dartmouth.

Perhaps Callahan can develop a similar pipeline to Dartmouth as the one Yale/Shay has developed with Moran. Rogan,a great student-athlete and a terrific young man,is the type of young man to start the flow.

It would be terrific to see that pipeline be successful.

A former DC football and lacrosse player of my acquaintance,is working on building that pipeline.He has relationships with quite a few coaches on Long Island.In addition to Moran,he has excellent relationships with the coaching staffs at Manhasset, St. Anthony's,Garden City, and Ward Melvile high schools.All are traditionally strong lacrosse programs that send quite a few players to the Ivies.Why not Dartmouth?

[MDlaxfan76]

In the interest of full disclosure, my son is on the team, and for that reason, I try to avoid this page. However, it is hard not to read it and comment. So, here it goes. No one is happy with the W-L record this year — not the coaches, not the players, not the parents. Contrary to what one poster said here, there is not a ho-hum attitude by the coaches and players after a loss. I have stood there and seen players in tears and the frustration on coaches’ faces. There is a real desire to win. Why aren’t they winning? I will leave that to the lacrosse experts, but having only two FOGOs on a DI roster (and having both hurt) has been a real problem. That certainly is a legitimate reason to criticize the coaches.

The players all seem to like each other and get along, despite the friction that could arise from the freshmen and sophomores playing over the seniors and many juniors. The players like the coaches and in particular, believe in and buy into what Joe Conner has brought. The offense needs to improve. Whether that will happen, again I leave to the experts.

There is a belief that the foundation is there. Two very good (and maybe great) goalies. A very solid young defense with more good D men coming in next year. The big questions are FOGO and more offense. The two FOGOs on the roster this year are back, and two more coming next year. Having 4 FOGOs in and of itself will make a huge difference. Going into Princeton tomorrow there are 0 playing. As for offense, time will tell.

There is a great need and anticipation of the indoor facility. The Friends seem to be working hard to get additional support and funding in place.
The players and coaches want desperately to win. Now, they just need to find a way to do it.

Thanks for the insight.
Good luck to your son and his buddies.

[cantrelax]

Well done Laxdad!

[wahoomurf]

In the interest of full disclosure, my son is on the team, and for that reason, I try to avoid this page. However, it is hard not to read it and comment. So, here it goes. No one is happy with the W-L record this year — not the coaches, not the players, not the parents. Contrary to what one poster said here, there is not a ho-hum attitude by the coaches and players after a loss. I have stood there and seen players in tears and the frustration on coaches’ faces. There is a real desire to win. Why aren’t they winning? I will leave that to the lacrosse experts, but having only two FOGOs on a DI roster (and having both hurt) has been a real problem. That certainly is a legitimate reason to criticize the coaches.

The players all seem to like each other and get along, despite the friction that could arise from the freshmen and sophomores playing over the seniors and many juniors. The players like the coaches and in particular, believe in and buy into what Joe Conner has brought. The offense needs to improve. Whether that will happen, again I leave to the experts.

There is a belief that the foundation is there. Two very good (and maybe great) goalies. A very solid young defense with more good D men coming in next year. The big questions are FOGO and more offense. The two FOGOs on the roster this year are back, and two more coming next year. Having 4 FOGOs in and of itself will make a huge difference. Going into Princeton tomorrow there are 0 playing. As for offense, time will tell.

There is a great need and anticipation of the indoor facility. The Friends seem to be working hard to get additional support and funding in place.
The players and coaches want desperately to win. Now, they just need to find a way to do it.

Thanks for the insight.
Good luck to your son and his buddies.

A good nucleus/foundation indeed.Eg,Gunn won 10 of 17.Good to know he's back and healthy.A few guys who played on his club team are considering DC.One,a sophomore and Michigan commit is reexamining his choice.Another sophomore stud from a great program is narrowing his choices.Dartmouth is on his short list.Tommy Rogan (A-Chaminade)is on he way.That indoor facility will help.

[MDlaxfan76]

In the interest of full disclosure, my son is on the team, and for that reason, I try to avoid this page. However, it is hard not to read it and comment. So, here it goes. No one is happy with the W-L record this year — not the coaches, not the players, not the parents. Contrary to what one poster said here, there is not a ho-hum attitude by the coaches and players after a loss. I have stood there and seen players in tears and the frustration on coaches’ faces. There is a real desire to win. Why aren’t they winning? I will leave that to the lacrosse experts, but having only two FOGOs on a DI roster (and having both hurt) has been a real problem. That certainly is a legitimate reason to criticize the coaches.

The players all seem to like each other and get along, despite the friction that could arise from the freshmen and sophomores playing over the seniors and many juniors. The players like the coaches and in particular, believe in and buy into what Joe Conner has brought. The offense needs to improve. Whether that will happen, again I leave to the experts.

There is a belief that the foundation is there. Two very good (and maybe great) goalies. A very solid young defense with more good D men coming in next year. The big questions are FOGO and more offense. The two FOGOs on the roster this year are back, and two more coming next year. Having 4 FOGOs in and of itself will make a huge difference. Going into Princeton tomorrow there are 0 playing. As for offense, time will tell.

There is a great need and anticipation of the indoor facility. The Friends seem to be working hard to get additional support and funding in place.
The players and coaches want desperately to win. Now, they just need to find a way to do it.

Thanks for the insight.
Good luck to your son and his buddies.

A good nucleus/foundation indeed.Eg,Gunn won 10 of 17.Good to know he's back and healthy.A few guys who played on his club team are considering DC.One,a sophomore and Michigan commit is reexamining his choice.Another sophomore stud from a great program is narrowing his choices.Dartmouth is on his short list.Tommy Rogan (A-Chaminade)is on he way.That indoor facility will help.

Good to hear. Thanks.

[Laxjunkie]

All of this debate and discussion is great.
I have learned over and over: Dartmouth is a special place. The student-athletes are performing in the classroom and staying out of trouble off the field. The future is bright.

But the bottom line is that the Dartmouth men's team is 2-9, and likely to end 2-11 and 0-6 in the Ivy. Exactly how long will Dartmouth, as a whole, tolerate subpar on field performance before making a head coach change? I will admit I am not a lacrosse lifer, or insider, but I have followed the sport and the Ivy League for 10+ years. It just seems that something is 'off', and I have to point to coaching primarily. When is it right to make a change?

[Dartjd76]

The Ivy League is among the toughest lacrosse leagues, so I look at non-conference results as a barometer first. Then I eliminate powers from ACC, etc, on the schedule, if any. Sadly, even the remaining results are poor. That is not ok. Not sure what the problem is, just keep supporting and hoping for better...

[faircornell]

I've tried to stay away from these types of opinions this year, but I have two thoughts about this issue that are opinions in the FWIW category. Regarding Dartmouth lacrosse:

1) Everyone is advancing: The Ivies are going from strength to strength in lacrosse, as are many other programs. Changing coaches may not help if your current coach is making progress. From watching the games via the Internet, it looks like progress is occurring.

2) Admissions is difficult: A fact that I'll note without judgement is that the ability of getting lacrosse players, serious or walk-on, into any Ivy school right now is extremely challenging. Dartmouth with it's smaller student body is much more challenged by default.

DC may or may not have the right person at the helm, but adjusting for the two factors above is a tall order for anyone to accomplish quickly.

[Laxjunkie]

I've tried to stay away from these types of opinions this year, but I have two thoughts about this issue that are opinions in the FWIW category. Regarding Dartmouth lacrosse:

1) Everyone is advancing: The Ivies are going from strength to strength in lacrosse, as are many other programs. Changing coaches may not help if your current coach is making progress. From watching the games via the Internet, it looks like progress is occurring.

2) Admissions is difficult: A fact that I'll note without judgement is that the ability of getting lacrosse players, serious or walk-on, into any Ivy school right now is extremely challenging. Dartmouth with it's smaller student body is much more challenged by default.

DC may or may not have the right person at the helm, but adjusting for the two factors above is a tall order for anyone to accomplish quickly.

I agree with most of this. Except, you say the Ivies are advancing and going from 'strength to strength'...yet you say it is challenging to get players into an Ivy. These somewhat conflicting statements on the face may both be somewhat true. But I would refer you to the NCAA champions from 2018 and the current rankings with 3 Ivies in the top 10. It can be done. It is being done. Just not at Dartmouth in recent history. And although I also agree that it may be difficult to do quickly, the current head coach is in season #5. How long is too long? I would truly love to see Dartmouth contend and that would be good for the league as well, but I just don't see it. 68th in scoring margin. 71st in clears. 70th in faceoffs.

[DALaxDad]

One other variable not discussed is the commitment of the AD to men's lacrosse. I don't remember the thresholds, but each school has the ability to take a certain number of athletes who meet the league wide Academic Index (AI) but whose AI is less (by up to one or two standard deviations) than the school's AI, provided that the AI for all recruited athletes is within some range of the school's AI. It allows for a handful of transcendent players to be recruited. DC worked to increase the overall academic profile of its student body, increasing its AI to close to what H-Y-P deal with, so its transcendent players have to meet a higher threshold than similar players at the other Ivies. My understanding is that part of the impetus for BT to head to Denver was a change in administration at Princeton and the loss of a couple of "transcendent" slots that had been allocated to the men's lacrosse team. My guess is, too, that Coach Teevens secured more than a few of those spots for the football team when he returned to DC, and the results show in the football team's improvement. Perhaps at the expense of men's lacrosse. It is not impossible, as shown by Shay at Yale, but there needs to be a university commitment to the program and there just may not be the right slots available to men's lacrosse.

[check sticks]

It allows for a handful of transcendent players to be recruited.

Not to beat this topic into the ground, but HOW do you define "transcendent player"? Seems you'll only know that
individual was such a player in retrospect.

[wahoomurf]

Payton St.Geme,an attackman from St.Ignatius,is heading to DC.I watched him play against Chaminade, St.Anthony's and Garden City.The guy is a terrific addition.It was interesting to see him on the opposite end of the field from Rogan.Opponents today and teammates the next 4 years.

[faircornell]

laxjunkie: I guess that my post was "in context" of rebuilding a program. The base that programs like Cornell and Yale are building from is stronger (I am not as familiar with the Penn program). For both Cornell and Yale, lacrosse enjoys strong alumni support and raises money. So, if the question is about winning Ivy games, the Ivy competition is strengthening each season.

In terms of admissions, my point was that with a smaller class that Dartmouth was at a disadvantage. I'd add to this that with lacrosse not looking like a big priority for DC that admissions gets even tougher. Added to this is that, with increasing competitive admissions, there are fewer opportunities for walk-ons, not just at Dartmouth, but at all Ivy schools. Time was when students of a walk-on profile could boost the roster of an Ivy team. My assumption (that I won't belabor here) is that such additions could be welcome at Dartmouth.

[baylax72]

Based on some posts here which indicate that this coach is doing right by his players and has the support of some of the more active alums, he likely won’t (and I’d argue shouldn’t) go anywhere. The pieces are in place, and the Ws should follow. Would be great to see this program in the ivy and national mix.

[Ghost]

If you look at Dartmouth vs other Ivy League Rosters- this is the first time in years, you can make a strong argument that the line between Winning n Losing, hinges on 1-2 impact players;
What if Dartmouth had a Sowers or TD?? ... UPENN’s is a perfect example - from 40th to 5th ranked with addition of 1 FOGO transfer and stud Freshman...
thoughts?

[DCIII]

Ghost - that's not a paranormal assessment. I think that we are 2-3 players away from a .500 or BETTER record. I've talked about this before, but you need to "draft" up the middle. The Mel Kiper scorecard is as follows:

Goalie - done
FO - a complete whiff - some very poor decisions have been made regarding past and potential recruits (and transfers). A general lack of appreciation for the importance of the position.
Big Strong Downhill Middie who can take charge when a goal, clear or solid possession is needed. Think past #2/17 but with more assertiveness/confidence.
X - Need to have a dominant and clear (TO BOTH TEAMS) leader on the field.

The key to garnering "transformational" players is to find that unusual connection to DC, be it DC's location, DC's uniqueness within the IVY's, or Top HS players with Green Blood (e.g. Hincks). Too many of these uniquely connected players are currently getting away.

[MDlaxfan76]

It allows for a handful of transcendent players to be recruited.

Not to beat this topic into the ground, but HOW do you define "transcendent player"? Seems you'll only know that
individual was such a player in retrospect.

It's indeed pretty darn hard to project a Molloy or a Reeves, guys who would truly be in that category. At least when they were first being recruited, not sure anyone, even their moms, would have expected them to develop as they did.

A Sowers, Teat, or Morrill, a Brandau, Cheek, Lang, Dwyer...maybe easier.

Even tougher may be projecting dominating poles or FOGO's or goalies.

So, it's about building a program in which there are no glaring weaknesses and there's enough depth that the next man up may well emerge as 'transcendent'. Beyond that it's luck. (Assuming good coaching, encouraging such development.)

I also think that depth of 'lax IQ' is essential. Everything happens faster, players get sharper, when everyone around them truly understands the game and is pushing the overall to be better.

There have been some comments about Yale's base. But how long did Yale languish towards the bottom of the Ivy League under Shay before that program turned the corner? It's a powerhouse magnet right now, but that wasn't always the case.

[MDlaxfan76]

Ghost - that's not a paranormal assessment. I think that we are 2-3 players away from a .500 or BETTER record. I've talked about this before, but you need to "draft" up the middle. The Mel Kiper scorecard is as follows:

Goalie - done
FO - a complete whiff - some very poor decisions have been made regarding past and potential recruits (and transfers). A general lack of appreciation for the importance of the position.
Big Strong Downhill Middie who can take charge when a goal, clear or solid possession is needed. Think past #2/17 but with more assertiveness/confidence.
X - Need to have a dominant and clear (TO BOTH TEAMS) leader on the field.

The key to garnering "transformational" players is to find that unusual connection to DC, be it DC's location, DC's uniqueness within the IVY's, or Top HS players with Green Blood (e.g. Hincks). Too many of these uniquely connected players are currently getting away.

I think your last paragraph is certainly correct, the appeal of what makes Dartmouth unique needs to find a connection with a given player. That's essential.

I wondered about what I bolded however. Is this happening right now with the current recruiting?

I'd certainly be surprised if that was the case, at least systematically so. For instance, hard to imagine a bias against alum kids who are top HS performers. Or are you saying they're seeing 'greener grass' elsewhere? Happened with my son, double legacy, high school class of 2012, so that's certainly possible.

On transfers, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think Dartmouth's still got a policy of not taking athlete transfers.

[MDlaxfan76]

Based on some posts here which indicate that this coach is doing right by his players and has the support of some of the more active alums, he likely won’t (and I’d argue shouldn’t) go anywhere. The pieces are in place, and the Ws should follow. Would be great to see this program in the ivy and national mix.

We agree!

If I had to make a prediction, I'd say that the AD's support for the HC is likely to extend another couple of years. Not forever, but the overall team culture, on and off the field, appears to have the support of the AD and real investments are being made.

I could be wrong, but that'd be my best guess.

But certainly there's an expectation that winning the OoC games will pick up and we'll begin to surprise to the upside in the Ivies.

I think the two younger classes will become the upper class leaders and there will be an opportunity to assess the recruiting of the next couple of classes before we'll really know whether the program has found sound footing.

If that momentum does occur, it will be easier and easier to attract the next waves of athletes to Hanover.

But the AD has also made clear that he expects Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse to be competitive nationally, again. He watches the games and knows the sport. So, it's not as if he's satisfied with where we are now!