2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[old salt]

.. I'm sure you'd be as critical of Pence & his religious beliefs if he were a Muslim rather than an Evangelical Christian.

Would you be backing a Muslim in the same manner you are propping up Pence? haha.

Pence has made his views on gays serving in the miliatry and DADT...

In 2010, Pence told CNN he did not want to see the military become “a backdrop for social experimentation.”

Sure. Omar for VP.

Not wanting service members to be guinea pigs for social change is not anti gay.
Pete entered the Navy under DADT & did well.

[foreverlax]

.. I'm sure you'd be as critical of Pence & his religious beliefs if he were a Muslim rather than an Evangelical Christian.

Would you be backing a Muslim in the same manner you are propping up Pence? haha.

Pence has made his views on gays serving in the miliatry and DADT...

In 2010, Pence told CNN he did not want to see the military become “a backdrop for social experimentation.”

Sure. Omar for VP.

Not wanting service members to be guinea pigs for social change is not anti gay.But that is not what DADT was about.
Pete entered the Navy under DADT & did well.Yes he did, despite those of Pence's ilk.

[old salt]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

[HooDat]

You ignore each poster who tells you it has nothing to do with Pence attacking Mayor Pete individually.

Nor does it really have anything to do with Pence's personal religious beliefs.

It has to do with the policies and legal actions he has pursued consistently across his career in opposition to gay rights. Those are attacks on all those who seek to love who they wish and be protected by the state from those who would discriminate against them.

of course it has to do with Pence's religious beliefs. Virtually every politician in Congress took similar positions as Pence on these issues as they have been discussed over the past 20 years. But one person was selected as the focus on this talking point. It was not an accident. The left has decided that Pence represents all things overly Christian and overly dogmatic about the religious right.

Hillary Clinton consistently pursued the exact same policies and legal actions right up to the point that they were no longer politically expedient for her to do so. Was she called out? Any other dem politicians that stood against gay marriage? Any secular republicans that stood against gay marriage? Of course not. Why, because this is about posturing and drawing a battle line that says the christian right is the enemy of civil rights and gay rights in particular. It was also done to deliver the message that religion, particularly Christianity, taken "too seriously" is something to be feared. He may be right, but make no mistake this was done on purpose and EXACTLY because of Pence's religious beliefs and devotion.

[old salt]

.. I'm sure you'd be as critical of Pence & his religious beliefs if he were a Muslim rather than an Evangelical Christian.

Would you be backing a Muslim in the same manner you are propping up Pence? haha.

Pence has made his views on gays serving in the miliatry and DADT...

In 2010, Pence told CNN he did not want to see the military become “a backdrop for social experimentation.”

Sure. Omar for VP.

Not wanting service members to be guinea pigs for social change is not anti gay.But that is not what DADT was about.
I never said it was. DADT worked & let the military change with society, rather than driving the change. DADT = live & let live.
Pete entered the Navy under DADT & did well.Yes he did, despite those of Pence's ilk....but Pete still wants (& needs) their votes.

[MDlaxfan76]

You ignore each poster who tells you it has nothing to do with Pence attacking Mayor Pete individually.

Nor does it really have anything to do with Pence's personal religious beliefs.

It has to do with the policies and legal actions he has pursued consistently across his career in opposition to gay rights. Those are attacks on all those who seek to love who they wish and be protected by the state from those who would discriminate against them.

of course it has to do with Pence's religious beliefs. Virtually every politician in Congress took similar positions as Pence on these issues as they have been discussed over the past 20 years. But one person was selected as the focus on this talking point. It was not an accident. The left has decided that Pence represents all things overly Christian and overly dogmatic about the religious right.

Hillary Clinton consistently pursued the exact same policies and legal actions right up to the point that they were no longer politically expedient for her to do so. Was she called out? Any other dem politicians that stood against gay marriage? Any secular republicans that stood against gay marriage? Of course not. Why, because this is about posturing and drawing a battle line that says the christian right is the enemy of civil rights and gay rights in particular. It was also done to deliver the message that religion, particularly Christianity, taken "too seriously" is something to be feared. He may be right, but make no mistake this was done on purpose and EXACTLY because of Pence's religious beliefs and devotion.

I think you miss my point.

Pence's personal views and how he wishes to personally practice his faith is his personal business.

But when he brings those views to the public square as a politician, advocating for policies, it's no longer 'personal'.

He's the highest elect official in America with this political set of 'beliefs'. Yes, he personifies what has now become extreme in America.

But it's not about taking religion too "seriously". It's about very serious, religiously faithful, people coming to a very different conclusion to the "what would Jesus do?" question.

[a fan]

He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

I agree on the militancy part.

[foreverlax]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

Are you saying that Pete is acting "militant"?

[old salt]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

Are you saying that Pete is acting "militant"?

I'm saying just the opposite. If he persists in attacking Pence, he will be perceived that way, to his detriment.

If you haven't seen his interview with Rachel Maddow about coming out, it's pitch perfect, ...genuine. I'd have deployed with him anywhere.
He needs to maintain that tone & nor be pushed toward militancy by the (D) primary process.

[jhu72]

Such a snowflake. He is worried exposing Faux Nation to his opponents ideas, like medicare for all, will challenge him.

[jhu72]

There are Evangelicals who are not anti-gay who voted for Trump (as opposed to Hillary) who could be won back by Mayer Pete and his socialism lite coupled with his true Christianity.

...& there's no need to attack Pence to attract those voters. By virtue of the fact they're not anti-gay, they are tolerant, & they don't welcome intolerance to Pences's beliefs or to Pete's beliefs.

Pete didn't make his attack on Pence before a national audience.
Let's see if he renews the strategy & before what audience.

Sure there is - get the Faux News crowd to notice. By taking on Pence the Mayor is guaranteed eyeballs. Democratic Christianity vs Trumpnista Christianity. Excellent tactical move.

I agree. (Not sure I'd call it "Democratic Christianity" but I get your point about offering a positive alternative to people of faith)

Especially for younger, religious voters, whether evangelical or traditional denominations.

There's a surprisingly (to some) large group of young evangelicals who see these sorts of issues very differently than their elders. The 'what would Jesus do?' question gets answered quite differently.

There's probably no social issue in American history that has seen such dramatic change than that of gay rights over the past two decades. And its penetrating every corner of America, as more and more people have friends and family members in loving, faithful same-sex relationships.

It is a huge issue for young Christians! They see the hypocrisy of the "old testiment" types who largely control the various denominations. A number of articles have been written by various Christian church leaders who claim the various churches are destroying themselves by not getting right with this issue (LGBTQ).

[jhu72]

There is nothing militant about Mayor Pete's behavior towards Pence. They have a clear difference. Pete has challenged and represents his world view, Pence represents his. None of Pence's supporters were complaining about Pence's militancy as he has made his anti-gay position clear to all who would listen. The people of the US and the world seeing the difference is a very good thing.

[old salt]

Expect Mayor Pete's military service to undergo scrutiny. I hope he talks about his experience in Afghanistan, especially his 119 trips outside the wire, & why he left the Naval Reserve before he promoted to 0-4.

https://www.abc57.com/news/fact-check-d ... rge-w-bush

A further look at Buttigieg's military record shows he worked on the Afghanistan Threat Finance Cell while deployed in Kabul. The mission was to identify and disrupt terrorist organizations' finance and support.

Records state the mayor oversaw analysis and operations, coordinated intelligence and went to high level briefings.

Comparing his 9 mos total active duty (per his DD-214), to 2+ years active duty as a fighter pilot, was another fight not worth picking.

[MDlaxfan76]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

Are you saying that Pete is acting "militant"?

I'm saying just the opposite. If he persists in attacking Pence, he will be perceived that way, to his detriment.

If you haven't seen his interview with Rachel Maddow about coming out, it's pitch perfect, ...genuine. I'd have deployed with him anywhere.
He needs to maintain that tone & nor be pushed toward militancy by the (D) primary process.

I think you're correct about his tone; quite the opposite of 'militant'.

But he's also unabashed in his celebration of his being happily married, and he's drawing a contrast between his own religious and political views and those politicians who would oppose his opportunity to be married to whom he chooses.

Pence personifies that oppositional view. If he was just some guy down the block who held his 'religious views' I'd quite agree, leave him alone. But Pence is on the ticket in 2020 (far as we know) and he's a politician with a long history.

By going right at this issue, upfront, Mayor Pete is flipping the script on those who would think his being gay is a negative for his candidacy.

But, you're right, it's his positive approach that makes his candidacy attractive.

[MDlaxfan76]

Expect Mayor Pete's military service to undergo scrutiny. I hope he talks about his experience in Afghanistan, especially his 119 trips outside the wire, & why he left the Naval Reserve before he promoted to 0-4.

https://www.abc57.com/news/fact-check-d ... rge-w-bush

A further look at Buttigieg's military record shows he worked on the Afghanistan Threat Finance Cell while deployed in Kabul. The mission was to identify and disrupt terrorist organizations' finance and support.

Records state the mayor oversaw analysis and operations, coordinated intelligence and went to high level briefings.

Comparing his 9 mos total active duty (per his DD-214), to 2+ years active duty as a fighter pilot, was another fight not worth picking.

Seems to me his claim was perfectly legitimate. W is very unlikely to actually think his service in the Air National Guard...during Vietnam but never deployed...is something he wants contrasted with Pete's.

Here's what Pete's claim was: "I have more military experience since anybody to arrive behind that desk since George H.W. Bush.” Buttigieg said.

Would W actually say his Air National Guard service was more dangerous than Pete's? Don't think so.
Would he claim 'military experience' comparable to his dad's, just less years? Don't think so.

But I don't think Mayor Pete was trying to be dismissive about W's service, his point is about a draft dodger like Trump.

On the 119 trips outside the wire, it's a claim so specific as to be highly likely to be accurate.
Of course, if he never went outside the wire, that'd be a whole other story. But it would have been really stupid to exaggerate this, and he doesn't strike me as the stupid sort.

[dislaxxic]

Let's not get into Shrub's "military experience" too awful far. We filled up LP threads arguing about this years ago...the ANG "service" Shrub didn't want to talk much about was reportedly in his cocaine phase and involved a very likely episode of going AWOL...a story that was attacked unceasingly as unfair and inaccurate by the very same folks who felt it was just fine to SwiftBoat attack John Kerry's war record...a tale full of hypocrisy and obfuscation that also included the de-frocking of then CBS anchor Dan Rather.

Mayor Pete FAR outshines Shrub, the (now second-) worst GOP president in history when it comes to military service...after Commander Bone Spurs.

..

[foreverlax]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

Are you saying that Pete is acting "militant"?

I'm saying just the opposite. If he persists in attacking Pence, he will be perceived that way, to his detriment.

If you haven't seen his interview with Rachel Maddow about coming out, it's pitch perfect, ...genuine. I'd have deployed with him anywhere.
He needs to maintain that tone & nor be pushed toward militancy by the (D) primary process.

Ds have to make sure this isn't about being "_____ enough". BHO wasn't black enough, etc etc.

Purity is what got the Rs in this mess, Ds are looking at the same ending.

[old salt]

Let's not get into Shrub's "military experience" too awful far. We filled up LP threads arguing about this years ago...the ANG "service" Shrub didn't want to talk much about was reportedly in his cocaine phase and involved a very likely episode of going AWOL...a story that was attacked unceasingly as unfair and inaccurate by the very same folks who felt it was just fine to SwiftBoat attack John Kerry's war record...a tale full of hypocrisy and obfuscation that also included the de-frocking of then CBS anchor Dan Rather.

Mayor Pete FAR outshines Shrub, the (now second-) worst GOP president in history when it comes to military service...after Commander Bone Spurs...

Don't get ahead of the story dis. Unlike you, I'm giving Pete's short time in the Reserves the same respect I gave W's completion of USAF flight training (2 years active duty) + 2 years flying operational missions (336 flt hours) in TX ANG F-102's -- a demanding, hazardous undertaking. Regarding Kerry, the majority of his fellow officers in his unit blew the whistle on him. Nothing like that happened to W & I don't expect it for Pete.

[cradleandshoot]

Let's not get into Shrub's "military experience" too awful far. We filled up LP threads arguing about this years ago...the ANG "service" Shrub didn't want to talk much about was reportedly in his cocaine phase and involved a very likely episode of going AWOL...a story that was attacked unceasingly as unfair and inaccurate by the very same folks who felt it was just fine to SwiftBoat attack John Kerry's war record...a tale full of hypocrisy and obfuscation that also included the de-frocking of then CBS anchor Dan Rather.

Mayor Pete FAR outshines Shrub, the (now second-) worst GOP president in history when it comes to military service...after Commander Bone Spurs.

..

Didn't BHO also go through his own personal "cocaine phase" ? Or was he just tinkering with a little nose candy back there in law school?
..the ANG "service" Shrub didn't want to talk much about was reportedly in his cocaine phase. What the heck is your point Bart? Your lame ass on your very best day never gave you the smarts to be a fighter pilot. What the heck were you doing when GWB was flying supersonic jet fighters? Playing with your dingus back in college and playing really tough games of scrabble? Probably doing both at the same time. You are certainly multi talented sir.


There I go being hostile again... Sorry MD

[get it to x]

This is a stunt. Pete needs to call out Obama & the Clintons too.

What for? They have no power. Pence does. He's still in office.

Btw, this is yet another marker that tells you that Obama and Clinton weren't libs.

We're going to disagree here. There are real legislators working right now, today, to take rights away from....well, anyone but them. This isn't a made up issue, as you are suggesting.

Pete is riding the bow wave of social change. So far he hasn't overplayed his hand.
If he continues to attack Pence (& Evangelical Christians, by proxy), he will lose more votes than he gains.
He needs to be the "live & let live" candidate. Stay on the crest of the wave of change.
No need to alienate voters with different religious beliefs with militancy.

Are you saying that Pete is acting "militant"?

I'm not sure I would say militant, in fact we should all celebrate the fact that it's out in the open and most people don't care. That being said, a common thread of identity politics continues to define the entire Democrat Party, not just progressives. Mayor Pete checks a box, but if you listen to him, talking about how in his early teens he wished he wasn't gay but he just was. Again, assigning some sort of virtue value to someone for something they had zero control over, whether it's gender, sexuality or skin color. These are all just "show up and get a participation trophy" games. He has some fairly impressive accomplishments that he did have control over, even though politically he's basically a garden variety progressive. His father was an avowed Marxist and Pete learned at his knee.