https://www.voanews.com/amp/usa_pentago ... 80693.htmlDocBarrister wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:01 pmHere you are falsely and inaccurately arguing that Ukraine accepted Russia’s annexation of Crimea and “LNR/DNR”. I correct you by saying “LNR/DNR” does not exist.old salt wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 12:28 amRussia took Crimea & the territory they declared as DNR/LNR in 2014, with little to no resistance. During the ensuing 8 years, what did the Ukrainians do to drive out the Russians ? Those territories were taken with little to no resistance. They finally resisted after the territory that was declared LNR/DNR was taken, but they didn't subsequently recover any lost territory. They took significant casualties in trench warfare in the Donbas, but did little to drive out the Russians in any of those areas. Even as Russia massed their invasion forces, they ignored US warnings of an imminent invasion. They were content to live with a frozen low level conflict for 8 years, with Russia holding Crimea & LNR/DNR until Russia invaded. They did not even mobilize nationally to fight until invasion was imminent.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:43 pmWell, I don't think I'd have gone quite there if I'd responded first, as I do find Salty's perspectives interesting, but you are 100% correct that Ukraine and the Ukrainians have never "accepted Russian control of Crimea & LNR/DNR" nor did they not think Putin would invade further if they stopped fighting and withdrew from the conflict. It was the West that bought the tall tale that Putin was a rational actor and wouldn't actually invade with the intent of crushing Ukraine, erasing any notion of an independent Ukrainian state, any notion that there's a Ukrainian people at all...DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:21 pmWhy do you keep telling these lies?old salt wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:44 pmThe Ukrainian people accepted Russian control of Crimea & LNR/DNR. They did not believe Russia would invade farther. They'll accept the loss of the land bridge too, so long as they can go home, rebuild & live in peace.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 6:43 pm I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a huge cost of extended warfare, to the world, not just the US and our EU allies.
Likewise, I don't think anyone would argue that IF Putin was willing to abandon his aggression, it wouldn't be terrific. If he even simply wanted to back off a bit, give up control of Mariupol and south of there.
But I don't think Putin is interested, remotely, in stopping even where they are now. And won't be until his military says they can't take it anymore. We're not dealing with a rational, much less honest, actor.
SO...my view is that we should be hoping that our superior systems and targeting capabilities, with greater range, once actually deployed, will indeed pound the crap out of the Russian military...and their morale does break... fully.
I'm not buying, yet, the narrative that this MUST be a long, multi-year war with the kind of pace of costs we're committing to these next 6 months. I think this thing can actually be won.
Sure hope I'm right, as I think the Ukrainian people would toss Zelensky on his ear if he didn't press forward at this point.
Putin failed to take back all of Ukraine, but the land bridge is critical to consolidating Crimea & guaranteeing unfettered Black Sea access.
Russia now holds from Kherson to Mariupol. Given the terrain & access, it will be a challenge to dislodge them from there. That's the territory necessary to guarantee overland access & fresh water supply to Crimea, control the Sea of Azov, & guarantee ports & shipping routes for Russian exports, without Ukrainian interference. imo -- Putin would accept that & spin it domestically as regaining Novorossiya. imho, he could then be deterred from pursing more, now that we are arming Ukraine & they have demonstrated their ability & willingness to fight to defend their nation.
Ukraine has NEVER accepted the invasion and occupation of Crimea. Ukraine has NEVER accepted the Russian invasion and occupation of LNR/DNR. In fact, there is no such thing as the LNR/DNR. Ukraine has been fighting a war in Eastern Ukraine for the past eight years.
Why would you state such blatant lies on this forum?
You are supporting the lies of a fascist Russian dictator. Completely disgraceful.
DocBarrister
and "we" bought it because it was in our "interest" do so, whether because we wanted cheap energy or because we were afraid, like Salty, of another Cold War. Putin put out his propaganda and many, many parroted it for years.
But Putin isn't a reasonable, rational actor and he never intended to stop.
Nor should we so naive as to imagine he'd stop now.
What's really outrageous to me is that Salty is asking for Ukraine to sacrifice huge amounts critical land and resources to Russia, (according to Salty all Putin actually wants anyway...BS) and just go powder their noses. And then he's going to turn around and tell us the next aggression "isn't the West's war"...unless, of course, it's China...
Ukraine has been independent for 30 years. They inherited the best of the Soviet military, industrial & ag capacity, which they squandered. You are seeing the remnants of that capability asserted now. For 3 decades, they wasted that advantage & did little to build the capability to defend themselves. They could have invested in their military, just as Russia did. Now it is somehow our responsibility to fund them taking back the territory they failed to defend & recover over the past 8 years. That is territory behind artificial, arbitrary borders, based on Russian provincial boundaries retained by the USSR. They are irrational as national boundaries, guaranteed to provoke disputes & instability.
Putin will have to stop because he will be incapable of going farther. If Ukraine stays mobilized as a nation, committed to their defense, with US & NATO support, they can finally defend themselves against further Russian advances, now that they have finally demonstrated the resolve to do so. ...unless they return to being a corrupt oligarchy, which they have still not demonstrated that they are not. Give Rand Paul the IG he's requesting to make sure the $40B doesn't go to grifters like Manafort & Hunter.
Later in the post, you pay lip service to Ukraine’s independence but then essentially state that Ukraine’s borders are “artificial, arbitrary borders, based on Russian provincial boundaries retained by the USSR.” THAT by the way, is Russia and Putin’s view of those “arbitrary” borders.
One of the many striking aspects of the invasion has been how much histories of border-drawing seem to matter. Days before invading, the Russian president claimed that “modern Ukraine was entirely created by … communist Russia”. In doing this, he said, Lenin transferred “to the newly, often arbitrarily formed administrative units – the union republics – vast territories that had nothing to do with them”.
https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine ... out-178708
Not only did you make the ridiculous assertion that Ukraine essentially accepted Russia’s occupation of vast portions of Ukraine, but you also adopted Putin’s view on the formation of Ukraine’s “arbitrary” borders … an argument that those territories didn’t really belong to Ukraine at all.
Do I need to post more or is this enough, old salt.
Thank you. I’m turning in for the evening.
DocBarrister
The second annual Reagan National Defense Survey, completed in late October, found nearly half of armed services households questioned, 46%, said they viewed Russia as ally.