Is America a racist nation?

[youthathletics]

What is the point of the argument? That humans have bias, therefore every decision must include bias, and the biased decision must include race?

[DMac]

Without resorting to concentration camps, the reaction to Germans in WWI was very similar to the reaction to Japanese in WW2. That is also a very interesting period of American paranoia, racism and xenophobia. German descendants suffered much greater then than they did in WW2.

Maybe so but that's not to say German decedents didn't experience much the same after WW II.
I'd be willing to bet I was in more fights by the time I was 12 than anyone else here was in for
their entire lives. Little German boys on US Army bases were targets, many a father encouraged
their little tough guy boys (not so much) to go beat the schidt out of those little kraut boys. We
weren't easy and pretty experienced at a young age. Daddy's found out their little guys weren't
so tough after all. Master race and all, ya know.

[DMac]

What is the point of the argument? That humans have bias, therefore every decision must include bias, and the biased decision must include race?

Thank you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Japanese vessels had to follow in the wake of the US and Brit vessels because...well, because they're Japanese.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us ... d=msedgntp

[Typical Lax Dad]

Without resorting to concentration camps, the reaction to Germans in WWI was very similar to the reaction to Japanese in WW2. That is also a very interesting period of American paranoia, racism and xenophobia. German descendants suffered much greater then than they did in WW2.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... acism.html

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php ... 0674951914

[Brooklyn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFFNQlqUcAA ... name=small




Only in America.

[jhu72]

Without resorting to concentration camps, the reaction to Germans in WWI was very similar to the reaction to Japanese in WW2. That is also a very interesting period of American paranoia, racism and xenophobia. German descendants suffered much greater then than they did in WW2.

Maybe so but that's not to say German decedents didn't experience much the same after WW II.
I'd be willing to bet I was in more fights by the time I was 12 than anyone else here was in for
their entire lives. Little German boys on US Army bases were targets, many a father encouraged
their little tough guy boys (not so much) to go beat the schidt out of those little kraut boys. We
weren't easy and pretty experienced at a young age. Daddy's found out their little guys weren't
so tough after all. Master race and all, ya know. -- was in a lot of street fights growing up. Tough "white" blue collar neighborhood.

... yup, America is a racist, xenophobic nation. We just can't help ourselves.

[Kismet]

Seems to me that this horse has been flogged beyond rational POV from either side. Might this be a time for everyone to move on

[cradleandshoot]

Seems to me that this horse has been flogged beyond rational POV from either side. Might this be a time for everyone to move on

I think your right. We are fortunate today our nation doesn't speak Japanese out west and German in the east. That is good enough for me.

[MDlaxfan76]

And what you are saying is that because the Germans only could get subs in our waters, that's the only threat from espionage or other acts to be concerned about??? What a crock. There was all sorts of risk of bombs or other acts that could well have disrupted the US war effort, indeed American citizens were warned to be on the lookout for such. and there were a heck of a lot of Nazi supporters in the US, as well as those Germans and Italian born or US citizens of German or Italian extraction. Certainly as great or greater than any conceivable threat of such from Japanese Americans. But keep on denying racism was determinative...just like everything else, there's an element of 'they deserved it' in any discussion with you about race.

I'm pointing out the factors which caused the public to panic to the point that FDR would feel the need to resort to internment. The public's panic was not necessarily rational, but the politicians responded anyway.

We were more vulnerable to a military attack on the W coast than on the E coast. The successful attacks on HI & AK, + the sub attacks against land targets, heightened that panic. There were no comparable attacks on the E coast. Acts of sabotage were theoretical. The Japanese attacks were actual events which drew public attention & were widely reported.

You underestimate our naval vulnerability after Pearl Harbor & the Aleutians. The Japanese had been at war since 1937. They had conquered, occupied & were exploiting a vast Asia-Pacific empire. We were ill prepared & caught flat footed. Most of our naval & air strength was massed on the E coast, focused on the looming threat of war in Europe.

We did not expect Japan to strike as far E as HI & AK. Our limited Pac defenses were concentrated on protecting the PI & our other W Pac island bases.

In 1941, Adm Yamamoto became ascendant. He convinced the war cabinet to approve his strategy of bringing the war to our shores. He succeeded in the first phase. Had our aircraft carriers been in port on 12-07-41, he may well have succeeded in launching air strikes on our W coast, forcing us to chase him over the entire Pacific with limited naval air assets.

https://www.historyonthenet.com/war-in-the-pacific

https://www.historyonthenet.com/panic-p ... arl-harbor
^^^ listen to the embedded podcast. Fear among the public & politicians was the primary motivating factor.
Racial insensitivity allowed it to happen. .

You almost got there. "insensitivity" ain't the word though.

You keep trying to claim that I don't understand the actual threats. You're wrong about that. I do understand the rational aspects of the fear.

I also understand, and am willing to admit, that it was a heck of a lot more than "insensitivity" that drove the fear to paranoia. And indeed, paranoia in that moment was understandable as well...it's that this paranoia persisted well after the rational threat had subsided, and this persistence was deeply racial. That's how it was expressed, in both words and deeds.

And there was not the same sort of paranoia about the internal threat from German Americans, though the actual threat from those Americans was every bit as great as from Americans of Japanese descent.

Why sugar coat this, why 'excuse' this as merely 'fear'?

Good grief man, the Germans did not conduct a sneak attack on our nation. You seem to see racism lurking behind every tree and every bush and under every bed. For the first time that I can remember someone has just declared FDR and Harry Truman guilty of being racists. You are walking in rare air here my friend.. You are way overthinking this issue. It ain't all that complicated to figure out my friend. America was angry at Japan and the events preceading Dec 7 did not help diffuse that anger one little bit. The Bataan death march didn't help that resentment at all. You say you understand the anger but your only explanation is it was racism. At at least you are consistent in what you say..

Come on, cradle, stop popping off without actually reading. I've said over and over again that there were multiple factors for all sorts of decisions; the only question we're discussing is how much race played a role, if at all. I think there was indisputably a heavily racial zeitgeist that contributed to all sorts of decisions. I see no reason to deny that reality.

And no, I'm not accusing either FDR or Truman of being "racist", though it's also correct that the worlds in which they moved accepted a white supremacist point of view...and they were both 'politicians' sensitive to the public's own racist beliefs. But they also both took actions that were quite positive relative to racism and discrimination for their era.

The point is not whether either POTUS was a "racist" but to what extent the public's "fear and paranoia", "anger and resentment" were fed by and infused with racism. Surely there was a rational element as well, no dispute there.

[MDlaxfan76]

What is the point of the argument? That humans have bias, therefore every decision must include bias, and the biased decision must include race?

Thank you.

youth and DMac,

What do you guys mean by "bias"?
What's the basis for the "bias"?

And what would you consider to be "racist bias"?
Is there such?
And, if so, how is it different, in your view, to mere "bias"?

[dislaxxic]

Seems to me that this horse has been flogged beyond rational POV from either side. Might this be a time for everyone to move on

I think your right. We are fortunate today our nation doesn't speak Japanese out west and German in the east. That is good enough for me.

Watch any of The Man in the High Castle."??

..

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago ... 1863&desc=

I believe some of this was dramatized in the ending of the film Gangs of New York which grew on me immensely after the second and third viewings. Really a great film.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Seems to me that this horse has been flogged beyond rational POV from either side. Might this be a time for everyone to move on

I think your right. We are fortunate today our nation doesn't speak Japanese out west and German in the east. That is good enough for me.

Watch any of The Man in the High Castle."??

..

I wanted to see it….is it streaming?

[cradleandshoot]

Seems to me that this horse has been flogged beyond rational POV from either side. Might this be a time for everyone to move on

I think your right. We are fortunate today our nation doesn't speak Japanese out west and German in the east. That is good enough for me.

Watch any of The Man in the High Castle."??

..

I did read Escape from Colditz many years ago.

[old salt]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

..... the case against C&S having been indoctrinated rests!! There were Saki drinking Japanese grandfathers that represented no threat to the US that ended up in the camps on the west coast. If your grandfather had been Japanese, where would he have spent the war?

MDLAX is correct, OS waves his hand at the threats posed by German descendants, 5th columnists, Uboats and German spies on the east coast. They were real, as real as the threat posed by Japanese descendants. No person of Japanese ancestry living in the United States was ever convicted of espionage or sabotage that I can find through a quick Google search (before or during the war). The National Park Service makes a similar statement in an exhibit at the Presidio museum in San Francisco.

4 well equipped German saboteurs came ashore from 2 subs on the E coast. They were captured within a matter of days before they could do anything but buy groceries. That's it. That tells us we had pretty good counter intel on the Germans. That was it for Axis attacks on the E coast. Contrast that with the ACTUAL military attacks by the Japanese on US soil.

All the Axis powers had spies in the US. As has been mentioned, it was impractical to inter German & Italian descendants. It could be done with Japanese descendants. Do you think FDR, his war cabinet & military leaders would invest the massive resources required without the belief that it was necessary, just to satisfy racial animus ? Part of the justification was to protect Japanese-Americans.

There is no way of knowing what espionage was prevented. In hindsight, it appears the it was not necessary, but FDR could not have known that at the time. Some of the Magic intercepts may have been alarming to FDR's advisors, but there was no subsequent evidence they yielded a 5th column.

Internment was maintained until near the end of the war. FDR gave the order to end it on 17Dec44. The camps were opened for release on 2Jan45. The camps remained open for a time for residents not yet ready or able to leave,

[Typical Lax Dad]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

..... the case against C&S having been indoctrinated rests!! There were Saki drinking Japanese grandfathers that represented no threat to the US that ended up in the camps on the west coast. If your grandfather had been Japanese, where would he have spent the war?

MDLAX is correct, OS waves his hand at the threats posed by German descendants, 5th columnists, Uboats and German spies on the east coast. They were real, as real as the threat posed by Japanese descendants. No person of Japanese ancestry living in the United States was ever convicted of espionage or sabotage that I can find through a quick Google search (before or during the war). The National Park Service makes a similar statement in an exhibit at the Presidio museum in San Francisco.

4 well equipped German saboteurs came ashore from 2 subs on the E coast. They were captured within a matter of days before they could do anything but buy groceries. That's it. That tells us we had pretty good counter intel on the Germans. That was it for Axis attacks on the E coast. Contrast that with the ACTUAL military attacks by the Japanese on US soil.

All the Axis powers had spies in the US. As has been mentioned, it was impractical to inter German & Italian descendants. It could be done with Japanese descendants. Do you think FDR, his war cabinet & military leaders would invest the massive resources required without the belief that it was necessary, just to satisfy racial animus ? Part of the justification was to protect Japanese-Americans.

There is no way of knowing what espionage was prevented. In hindsight, it appears the it was not necessary, but FDR could not have known that at the time. It was maintained until near the end of the war. FDR gave the order to end it on 17Dec44. The camps were opened for release on 2Jan45. The camps remained open for a time for residents not yet ready or able to leave,

They liked the government taking care of them.

[old salt]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

..... the case against C&S having been indoctrinated rests!! There were Saki drinking Japanese grandfathers that represented no threat to the US that ended up in the camps on the west coast. If your grandfather had been Japanese, where would he have spent the war?

MDLAX is correct, OS waves his hand at the threats posed by German descendants, 5th columnists, Uboats and German spies on the east coast. They were real, as real as the threat posed by Japanese descendants. No person of Japanese ancestry living in the United States was ever convicted of espionage or sabotage that I can find through a quick Google search (before or during the war). The National Park Service makes a similar statement in an exhibit at the Presidio museum in San Francisco.

4 well equipped German saboteurs came ashore from 2 subs on the E coast. They were captured within a matter of days before they could do anything but buy groceries. That's it. That tells us we had pretty good counter intel on the Germans. That was it for Axis attacks on the E coast. Contrast that with the ACTUAL military attacks by the Japanese on US soil.

All the Axis powers had spies in the US. As has been mentioned, it was impractical to inter German & Italian descendants. It could be done with Japanese descendants. Do you think FDR, his war cabinet & military leaders would invest the massive resources required without the belief that it was necessary, just to satisfy racial animus ? Part of the justification was to protect Japanese-Americans.

There is no way of knowing what espionage was prevented. In hindsight, it appears the it was not necessary, but FDR could not have known that at the time. It was maintained until near the end of the war. FDR gave the order to end it on 17Dec44. The camps were opened for release on 2Jan45. The camps remained open for a time for residents not yet ready or able to leave,

They liked the government taking care of them.

Right. Wiseass troll. Many, especially the elderly, had no place to return to. Many younger were released earlier to E-ward locations.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

..... the case against C&S having been indoctrinated rests!! There were Saki drinking Japanese grandfathers that represented no threat to the US that ended up in the camps on the west coast. If your grandfather had been Japanese, where would he have spent the war?

MDLAX is correct, OS waves his hand at the threats posed by German descendants, 5th columnists, Uboats and German spies on the east coast. They were real, as real as the threat posed by Japanese descendants. No person of Japanese ancestry living in the United States was ever convicted of espionage or sabotage that I can find through a quick Google search (before or during the war). The National Park Service makes a similar statement in an exhibit at the Presidio museum in San Francisco.

4 well equipped German saboteurs came ashore from 2 subs on the E coast. They were captured within a matter of days before they could do anything but buy groceries. That's it. That tells us we had pretty good counter intel on the Germans. That was it for Axis attacks on the E coast. Contrast that with the ACTUAL military attacks by the Japanese on US soil.

All the Axis powers had spies in the US. As has been mentioned, it was impractical to inter German & Italian descendants. It could be done with Japanese descendants. Do you think FDR, his war cabinet & military leaders would invest the massive resources required without the belief that it was necessary, just to satisfy racial animus ? Part of the justification was to protect Japanese-Americans.

There is no way of knowing what espionage was prevented. In hindsight, it appears the it was not necessary, but FDR could not have known that at the time. It was maintained until near the end of the war. FDR gave the order to end it on 17Dec44. The camps were opened for release on 2Jan45. The camps remained open for a time for residents not yet ready or able to leave,

They liked the government taking care of them.

Right. Wiseass troll. Many, especially the elderly, had no place to return to.

I thought it was funny actually…. “residents”

[old salt]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

..... the case against C&S having been indoctrinated rests!! There were Saki drinking Japanese grandfathers that represented no threat to the US that ended up in the camps on the west coast. If your grandfather had been Japanese, where would he have spent the war?

MDLAX is correct, OS waves his hand at the threats posed by German descendants, 5th columnists, Uboats and German spies on the east coast. They were real, as real as the threat posed by Japanese descendants. No person of Japanese ancestry living in the United States was ever convicted of espionage or sabotage that I can find through a quick Google search (before or during the war). The National Park Service makes a similar statement in an exhibit at the Presidio museum in San Francisco.

4 well equipped German saboteurs came ashore from 2 subs on the E coast. They were captured within a matter of days before they could do anything but buy groceries. That's it. That tells us we had pretty good counter intel on the Germans. That was it for Axis attacks on the E coast. Contrast that with the ACTUAL military attacks by the Japanese on US soil.

All the Axis powers had spies in the US. As has been mentioned, it was impractical to inter German & Italian descendants. It could be done with Japanese descendants. Do you think FDR, his war cabinet & military leaders would invest the massive resources required without the belief that it was necessary, just to satisfy racial animus ? Part of the justification was to protect Japanese-Americans.

There is no way of knowing what espionage was prevented. In hindsight, it appears the it was not necessary, but FDR could not have known that at the time. It was maintained until near the end of the war. FDR gave the order to end it on 17Dec44. The camps were opened for release on 2Jan45. The camps remained open for a time for residents not yet ready or able to leave,

They liked the government taking care of them.

Right. Wiseass troll. Many, especially the elderly, had no place to return to.

I thought it was funny actually…. “residents”

After the camps were opened, that's what those who chose to remain became.