January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[dislaxxic]

..

[jhu72]

..

... it may be time for liberals and democrats to begin embracing the gun.

[cradleandshoot]

..

... it may be time for liberals and democrats to begin embracing the gun.

Why is that? You dumbasses would only wind up shooting yourselves. Come to think of it, that is one way to thin the ranks of the liberal heard. My bad Doc.. fire at Will...and every other FLP in your line of sight.

[seacoaster]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

[dislaxxic]

Come to think of it, that is one way to thin the ranks of the liberal heard. My bad Doc.. fire at Will...and every other FLP in your line of sight.

The "liberal heard"? ...you mean the conservative teard...

..

[Typical Lax Dad]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

[SCLaxAttack]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

[seacoaster]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.

[youthathletics]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

[ToastDunk]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

But did Trump win the election? Serious question. (Hint: There is only one true and correct answer)

[MDlaxfan76]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.

[youthathletics]

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican winning the POTUS again?

EDIT: winning not willing

But did Trump win the election? Serious question. (Hint: There is only one true and correct answer)

Of course not, which is why I am posing the question.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.

Yes, Republican....my point exactly, the focus appears to be all on Trump(ist). Again, exactly each side is fighting for 'power' using different tactics to splinter each of us.

So again, what are so many here afraid will happen if a republican wins POTUS again? What do you think will happen to our country?

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.

[MDlaxfan76]

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican winning the POTUS again?

EDIT: winning not willing

But did Trump win the election? Serious question. (Hint: There is only one true and correct answer)

Of course not, which is why I am posing the question.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.

Yes, Republican....my point exactly, the focus appears to be all on Trump(ist). Again, exactly each side is fighting for 'power' using different tactics to splinter each of us.

So again, what are so many here afraid will happen if a republican wins POTUS again? What do you think will happen to our country?

See above.

I don't see any "Republican" candidate capable of winning the GOP primary if not fully embracing the Trumpist Big Lie and disinformation tactics. It may be a more polished version, but also potentially far more competent in the exercise of that power for ill, if successful at attaining it. And that could effectively end democracy in the US.

That might still change, but if not with the Insurrection, not sure anything other than resounding defeat at the polls will achieve it.

Obviously there would have been Republicans who are not Trumpists who would be just fine...but where are they now?

[seacoaster]

I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.

Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.

Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.

But Joe is old and talks funny and Hillary tripped and fell.

[jhu72]

..

I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?

Yep.

I’d use scary rather than astonishing.

Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.

General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?

... very much depends on who and how. An election where republican legislatures are overturning election results, Katie bar the door! Any Trumpnista (authoritarian), Katie bar the door. Another divergence of electoral college results and raw vote, very dangerous forces unleashed. Gun purchases reached their highest level ever with 64% growth rate year over in 2020. First 4 months of this year, sales out pacing last year. I don't think hunting just got really popular in the last few years.

[dislaxxic]

Couple EXCELLENT posts, thanks MD and SC...

These posts lay it out pretty clearly youthathletics. "Normal" republicans are a dying breed...hounded into retirement and/or irrelevance (unelectable?) by MAGA Nation, the voters from which seem to dominate republican primaries. Will be interesting to see what may happen to Cheney in Maraschino cherry red Wyoming.

Does any of this strike a bell with you?

..

[seacoaster]

Article off topic:

https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/71429 ... KGFF05PT5W

But with this quote:

"If support for Trumpism simply meant support for Trump’s populist policies, like taking a tough line on illegal immigration or railing against free trade, the Republican Party wouldn’t be in the predicament that it’s in. The problem is that the GOP litmus test is strictly about loyalty to Trump himself, along with his increasingly deluded election-conspiracy theorizing."

This is the problem: the GOP litmus test is lawless. It is a statement that the election, recounts, litigations, and state certifications were all somehow a fraud. This, YA, may not be you -- but it is absolutely the GOP bedrock now. Pretty f*cking scary.

[ToastDunk]

I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.

Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.

Yes, well put! Hard to dispute the facts as MDlax has rolled them out here (although many would). And I agree that the past four years has lead us to uncertain, and yes, frightening times.

To answer YA's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.