All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[Typical Lax Dad]

seems like the gaslighting has gone both ways.
that's all that some are saying.
the whataboutism has never had a better canvas.
middle of a pandemic, choices made all over tend to be bad.
some are made bc our politicians just happened to be popular and not studs, some bc they're vapid and selfish, etc.

i've thought about the one term thing a lot the last couple weeks. like the 6 years. needs to be on congress, too.
thought that's what i would want if i ever wanted to be elected. chuck it, not care about a base or promises and try to get the right things done.

of course, that and other skeletons would likely make me unelectable.

We are not elected officials charged with the welfare of the general public and we don’t receive daily intelligence briefings and we don’t have access to global health officials. People expect more from their cable companies.

there were toilet paper and hoarding runs like never in history.
the market fell for a full month. that is tens of millions of voters. aware.
35%. trillions.

parents had to tell major leaders to close schools. mistakes continued. by elected leaders everywhere. they continue today.

none of those investors or toilet paper shoppers needed intelligence briefings.

when the shutdowns finally happened, the market breathed. and said, "what took you so long?"

Were those runs before or after the government finally decided to fess up or were toilet paper stocks depleted before the order? Were people storming state capitals before or after the “ liberate order” was given?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Nah, nobody knew what to do.... we had a two month head start. Doing nothing wasn’t a good choice.... we have been studying this for years.

[wgdsr]

on the first count before.
on the second likely after, but unrest before for sure.
"it's like the flu".

if you're looking at me, you're not going to get an argument that this has been smartly or in many cases even competently handled at any level.

[Typical Lax Dad]

on the first count before.
on the second likely after, but unrest before for sure.
"it's like the flu".

if you're looking at me, you're not going to get an argument that this has been smartly or in many cases even competently handled at any level.

I know. I can’t give these guys a break and I will admit I am biased. I am not going to use the “it’s not that I don’t like Trump, but...” like so many folks do here..... In my State, it wasn’t until the the rumors of a shutdown was coming before there was a run on TP. In fact, my wife made a second run to BJ’s because we kept hearing it was coming. Same for NY. For about 10 days we were hearing that a closure was coming.

[DocBarrister]

Alabama is in serious trouble as the governor rushes to reopen the economy. Absolutely reckless.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/us/montg ... index.html


DocBarrister

[old salt]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

[DocBarrister]

Yeah, nobody knew any better....the bar is so low for this administration it’s ridiculous....you all have been Gaslit.

That's not the context of the point I'm making with Monday Morning Quarterback DocB. Here's his claim:

. (CNN)If the United States had started social distancing just a week earlier, it could have prevented the loss of at least 36,000 lives to the coronavirus, according to new research.

Backseat driving at its finest. You and I know that DocB has admitted to being a ridiculous caricature of a latte liberal. DocB is specifically calling out Trump for not forcing every governor in the nation to shut down and shelter in place "one week earlier". And he, like CNN, is making this "gee, ya think?" call months after the fact, when even my 5 year old could have figured that out. And he said NOTHING about sheltering in place in February when no one was stopping him from doing so.

So yeah, I'm going to make fun of DocB's usual bloviating about how Trump "did it wrong", and anyone who supports Trump must kick puppies and throw infants out of windows in their spare time.

What if:

—Trump worked in a business and part of his job was to keep the employees safe at work; and

—Trump received dozens of very early warnings that a virus threatened the health of his workers; and

—Trump keeps lying and downplaying the risk whenever asked because he wants his employees to keep working and he wants to keep his own job; and

—Trump does nothing while his employees begin to get sick and die en masse; and

—Trump has assistants who watch all this unfolding death but keep supporting him because they want Trump to keep his job and they want to keep their jobs; and

—When too many employees die, Trump finally takes some action; and

—After a short time, although the virus is still spreading and killing his employees, Trump prioritizes keeping his job over the lives and health of his employees, so he pushes for reopening the business and compelling his employees to return to work; and

—Trump’s assistants support this action, despite knowing that more employees than necessary will die because they are reopening before the virus is under control.

Is Trump morally culpable for the death of the employees under his care?

In certain jurisdictions, would Trump be legally culpable for their deaths—negligent homicide?

Are his supporters morally culpable to some extent for those deaths?

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

[6ftstick]

Bureaucrats must sense that the opening up of the country is going too well.And they're losing control.

New reports coming out about complications with school age children and now another with college age children.

Better get back in our pajamas, stay home and let Gavin Gretchen Phil and Andrew save us.

Lets go Govs its been 8 weeks I need another $1200.

[MDlaxfan76]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

In early February my son was saying, with some alarm, that there was no testing when he was traveling from Asia to the US. Shanghai to Thailand in January, Thailand to Hong Kong to Chicago to Miami in February. Temperature testing at each step in Asia, none in US.

By mid-late February virus testing should have been in place as prerequisite for international travel. The WHO tests were in mass production. It should be today.

But the more important point is that prior to any shutdowns of access, or even contemplation of such, we already had virus in the US and Europe.

So, the international travel component may have been helpful thereafter, but already too late to actually stop the initial spread. Which is why the testing and PPE etc ramp up was so crucial, why right then we should have begun some social distancing, mask wearing etc. The public messaging should have been (and yes, some of us were saying so, as were the scientists) that spread was inevitable and serious without public participation in slowing it down.

[MDlaxfan76]

Bureaucrats must sense that the opening up of the country is going too well.And they're losing control.

New reports coming out about complications with school age children and now another with college age children.

Better get back in our pajamas, stay home and let Gavin Gretchen Phil and Andrew save us.

Lets go Govs its been 8 weeks I need another $1200.

Tell it to Alabama.


Agreed that there will need to be more $.

[RedFromMI]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

[6ftstick]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

D*mn that 4th amendment causing major kicking and screaming. Constitutional protections are only valid when everything's going well.

[get it to x]

Yeah, nobody knew any better....the bar is so low for this administration it’s ridiculous....you all have been Gaslit.

That's not the context of the point I'm making with Monday Morning Quarterback DocB. Here's his claim:

. (CNN)If the United States had started social distancing just a week earlier, it could have prevented the loss of at least 36,000 lives to the coronavirus, according to new research.

Backseat driving at its finest. You and I know that DocB has admitted to being a ridiculous caricature of a latte liberal. DocB is specifically calling out Trump for not forcing every governor in the nation to shut down and shelter in place "one week earlier". And he, like CNN, is making this "gee, ya think?" call months after the fact, when even my 5 year old could have figured that out. And he said NOTHING about sheltering in place in February when no one was stopping him from doing so.

So yeah, I'm going to make fun of DocB's usual bloviating about how Trump "did it wrong", and anyone who supports Trump must kick puppies and throw infants out of windows in their spare time.

What if:

—Trump worked in a business and part of his job was to keep the employees safe at work; and

—Trump received dozens of very early warnings that a virus threatened the health of his workers; and

—Trump keeps lying and downplaying the risk whenever asked because he wants his employees to keep working and he wants to keep his own job; and

—Trump does nothing while his employees begin to get sick and die en masse; and

—Trump has assistants who watch all this unfolding death but keep supporting him because they want Trump to keep his job and they want to keep their jobs; and

—When too many employees die, Trump finally takes some action; and

—After a short time, although the virus is still spreading and killing his employees, Trump prioritizes keeping his job over the lives and health of his employees, so he pushes for reopening the business and compelling his employees to return to work; and

—Trump’s assistants support this action, despite knowing that more employees than necessary will die because they are reopening before the virus is under control.

Is Trump morally culpable for the death of the employees under his care?

In certain jurisdictions, would Trump be legally culpable for their deaths—negligent homicide?

Are his supporters morally culpable to some extent for those deaths?

DocBarrister

Really? Are Obama's supporters culpable for his slow response on SARS? You have blood on your hands if that's true. I didn't think it was possible, but you are actually becoming a parody of yourself.

Can I ask, if it turns out Hydroxychloroquine is either an effective prophylactic or a therapy in the early stages of the disease are liberals culpable in the deaths of those who feared taking it? Also, do government doctors oppose using a generic and readily available drug, and prefer to wait for Big Pharma to develop an exotic and expensive treatment? At a couple of bucks a pill, there isn't any money to be made on a 75 year old medicine with relatively few side effects. Is the media culpable because they reflexively oppose anything Trump is for?

This is just another case of "never letting a crisis go to waste", but this time it's so nakedly obvious people aren't falling for it.

[RedFromMI]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

D*mn that 4th amendment causing major kicking and screaming. Constitutional protections are only valid when everything's going well.

I should point out that when entering the country - a lot of those protections are not in play. Border officials at airports are perfectly within their right to take your cell phone and make you open it and scan through your emails and texts.

So health screening is not really a problem. And there are plenty of public health laws that allow for the follow-up.

[tech37]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

Nice plan. Too bad all that anyone cared about at the time, the 24/7 news cycle, was suppressing a presidency. Let's not forget how our superb leaders, especially the Ds and MSM, were focused on nothing but the impeachment farce.

[6ftstick]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

D*mn that 4th amendment causing major kicking and screaming. Constitutional protections are only valid when everything's going well.

I should point out that when entering the country - a lot of those protections are not in play. Border officials at airports are perfectly within their right to take your cell phone and make you open it and scan through your emails and texts.

So health screening is not really a problem. And there are plenty of public health laws that allow for the follow-up.

AAAHHHH because the government has ALREADY usurped some 4th amendment protection its OK to give them even more. Feel safer yet.

[seacoaster]

More:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... rus-study/

"A study of 96,000 hospitalized coronavirus patients on six continents found that those who received an antimalarial drug promoted by President Trump as a “game changer” in the fight against the virus had a significantly higher risk of death compared with those who did not.

People treated with hydroxychloroquine, or the closely related drug chloroquine, were also more likely to develop a type of irregular heart rhythm, or arrhythmia, that can lead to sudden cardiac death, it concluded.

The study, published Friday in the medical journal the Lancet, is the largest analysis to date of the risks and benefits of treating covid-19 patients with antimalarial drugs. It is based on a retrospective analysis of medical records, not a controlled study in which patients are divided randomly into treatment groups — a method considered the gold standard of medicine. But the sheer size of the study was convincing to some scientists.

“It’s one thing not to have benefit, but this shows distinct harm,” said Eric Topol, a cardiologist and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. “If there was ever was hope for this drug, this is the death of it.”

David Maron, director of preventive cardiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, said that “these findings provide absolutely no reason for optimism that these drugs might be useful in the prevention or treatment of covid-19.”

Past studies also found scant or no evidence of hydroxychloroquine’s benefit in treating sick patients, while reports mounted of dangerous heart problems associated with its use. As a result, the Food and Drug Administration last month warned against the use of the drug outside hospital settings or clinical trials."

[RedFromMI]

Posted : Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:39 pm

This might really develop into a big deal.
Can China contain this & cope with it ?
Potential strategic implications ?
Uncontained, could decimate China & contiguous nations.
VDH has some thoughts :

Now the curtain has been pulled back on the interior rot of the Chinese Communist Party, its gulag-like reeducation camps, its systematic mercantile cheating, its Orwellian surveillance apparatus, its serial public-health crises, and its primitive hinterland infrastructure.

Interesting stroll down memory lane. Nobody anticipated the virility of air travel contagion vectors.
Immediate ban on international flight arrivals would have been the only conceivable way to slow the spread.

https://www.transportation.gov/testimon ... air-travel

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604007/

Without the benefit of hindsight (not knowing then, what we know now), if, when & from where, would you have closed US airports to international arriving passengers ?

As soon as we knew that the epidemic was no longer contained in China, we should have at least been doing the following:

1. Screen all incoming passengers for travel locations that may include developing hot spots.
2. Screen all incoming passengers for obvious health signs (fever, coughing).
3. Anyone suspicious told to isolate - set up follow up with local health officials for monitoring.

There would have been some major kicking and screaming, but we could have really suppressed this in an early stage.

D*mn that 4th amendment causing major kicking and screaming. Constitutional protections are only valid when everything's going well.

I should point out that when entering the country - a lot of those protections are not in play. Border officials at airports are perfectly within their right to take your cell phone and make you open it and scan through your emails and texts.

So health screening is not really a problem. And there are plenty of public health laws that allow for the follow-up.

AAAHHHH because the government has ALREADY usurped some 4th amendment protection its OK to give them even more. Feel safer yet.

I am not saying I am comfortable with the whole phone issue - but it even gets worse. You live withing 100 miles of the borders with Canada or Mexico (or Russia in Alaska)? 100 miles from the ocean or Great Lakes? The border patrol has rights to do their searches there as well.