Our Undeclared Wars

[Brooklyn]

Trump's imperialistic terrorism will bring him many profits but it will cost people plenty in terms of blood and money. Are you right wingers sure you want to pay the price he is demanding?

[cradleandshoot]

This gets so very tiresome. Let's all just roll with the half baked assumption put forth here by the FLP peanut gallery. The Iranian leadership are just a bunch of poor misunderstood people who are the Rodney Dangerfields of the ME... they just can't get any respect. I get where all of you are coming from. Iran would love us if it wasn't for those damn Jews and the right wing hate mongers in the USA. Got it... message recieved Lima...Charlie.

[jhu72]

And here we go boys.

Don't forget: tech, old salt, and cradleandshoot ASKED that we take this path. Hope you're all thrilled with your brilliant "strategy".

President Donald Trump threatened Iran with "obliteration" on Tuesday, saying that an attack on "anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force."

"In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!" the President tweeted.


We're going to go to war over little D's and R's, tech (Trump bringing up Kerry and Obama) Way to go, mate.

All it takes is one Iranian hardliner at the controls of a missile battery, and it's game on. Sweet. Boy, good thing we brought the plainly much smarter Trump administration to fix a nuclear deal that was working.

Because if Trump didn't save the day, we might have four more agonizing years where Iran doesn't get a nuke. And we can't have that, can we boys..


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/politics ... index.html

The Iranians don't believe him, which is dangerous. They have seen him in action in this crises, they have seen him in action with the North Koreans and the only conclusion you can draw is he is a paper tiger. They know like the rest of the world Trump's game is to create a problem, bluster about it then claim victory where nothing has changed. Trump is not going to pull the trigger, he is going to arrange to be "held back" by the democrats. Need a new AUMF of some such excuse. "Look at what Iran did and the democrats would not let me destroy them." He doesn't care about the world, he cares about himself. Pulling the trigger is not good for him and he knows it. The Iranians have him right where they want him.

[a fan]

That's not what we're saying at all, cradle.

We're saying: you are intentionally choosing a war because you don't trust Iran. You and Trump are intentionally enacting a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You understand that Iranian hardliners are making your EXACT argument to the moderates in Iran, right? You can't trust the Americans, so we should hit them first?


Trump broke a deal because guys like you think that Iran "might" break that deal. Do you not understand the logic fail here?


It's like two kids standing next to each other in the playground. And one kid, without warning, pops the other kid in the face. And when the first kid's dad asks him why the heck he hit the other kid without warning, is "I thought he was going to pop me in the face".

Trump is picking a fight to stop a fight. Savvy? Same thing we did in Iraq, actually. Remember the phrase "pre-emptive war"? I sure do. Bush and idiots like Hillary thought your logic made sense, too.

Whoops.

[foreverlax]

This gets so very tiresome. Let's all just roll with the half baked assumption put forth here by the FLP peanut gallery. The Iranian leadership are just a bunch of poor misunderstood people who are the Rodney Dangerfields of the ME... they just can't get any respect. I get where all of you are coming from. Iran would love us if it wasn't for those damn Jews and the right wing hate mongers in the USA. Got it... message recieved Lima...Charlie.

You didn't answer my question....

[Typical Lax Dad]

And here we go boys.

Don't forget: tech, old salt, and cradleandshoot ASKED that we take this path. Hope you're all thrilled with your brilliant "strategy".

President Donald Trump threatened Iran with "obliteration" on Tuesday, saying that an attack on "anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force."

"In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!" the President tweeted.


We're going to go to war over little D's and R's, tech (Trump bringing up Kerry and Obama) Way to go, mate.

All it takes is one Iranian hardliner at the controls of a missile battery, and it's game on. Sweet. Boy, good thing we brought the plainly much smarter Trump administration to fix a nuclear deal that was working.

Because if Trump didn't save the day, we might have four more agonizing years where Iran doesn't get a nuke. And we can't have that, can we boys..


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/politics ... index.html

The Iranians don't believe him, which is dangerous. They have seen him in action in this crises, they have seen him in action with the North Koreans and the only conclusion you can draw is he is a paper tiger. They know like the rest of the world Trump's game is to create a problem, bluster about it then claim victory where nothing has changed. Trump is not going to pull the trigger, he is going to arrange to be "held back" by the democrats. Need a new AUMF of some such excuse. "Look at what Iran did and the democrats would not let me destroy them." He doesn't care about the world, he cares about himself. Pulling the trigger is not good for him and he knows it. The Iranians have him right where they want him.

Donald Trump has never done anything for anyone other than himself.

[tech37]

That's not what we're saying at all, cradle.

We're saying: you are intentionally choosing a war because you don't trust Iran.

Oh knock it off a fan...no one wants to see a war...just stop with that nonsense.

I posted the other day that war was inevitable if the Iran regime doesn't change it's behavior. That's an observation, an opinion, not war mongering. If you don't see the difference, then you're either being totally obtuse or a jerk. Take your pick.

[DMac]

And here we go boys.

Don't forget: tech, old salt, and cradleandshoot ASKED that we take this path. Hope you're all thrilled with your brilliant "strategy".

President Donald Trump threatened Iran with "obliteration" on Tuesday, saying that an attack on "anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force."

"In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!" the President tweeted.


We're going to go to war over little D's and R's, tech (Trump bringing up Kerry and Obama) Way to go, mate.

All it takes is one Iranian hardliner at the controls of a missile battery, and it's game on. Sweet. Boy, good thing we brought the plainly much smarter Trump administration to fix a nuclear deal that was working.

Because if Trump didn't save the day, we might have four more agonizing years where Iran doesn't get a nuke. And we can't have that, can we boys..


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/politics ... index.html

The Iranians don't believe him, which is dangerous. They have seen him in action in this crises, they have seen him in action with the North Koreans and the only conclusion you can draw is he is a paper tiger. They know like the rest of the world Trump's game is to create a problem, bluster about it then claim victory where nothing has changed. Trump is not going to pull the trigger, he is going to arrange to be "held back" by the democrats. Need a new AUMF of some such excuse. "Look at what Iran did and the democrats would not let me destroy them." He doesn't care about the world, he cares about himself. Pulling the trigger is not good for him and he knows it. The Iranians have him right where they want him.

This is deads nuts on the money, I can't imagine the leaders of the world looking at Trump as anything other than what he is, a big blowhard buffoon who is unfit for the office (I believe even some of his supporters here view him as unfit for the office).

“The White House is afflicted by mental retardation and does not know what to do.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-apos-pr ... 12511.html

[Typical Lax Dad]

That's not what we're saying at all, cradle.

We're saying: you are intentionally choosing a war because you don't trust Iran.

Oh knock it off a fan...no one wants to see a war...just stop with that nonsense.

I posted the other day that war was inevitable if the Iran regime doesn't change it's behavior. That's an observation, an opinion, not war mongering. If you don't see the difference, then you're either being totally obtuse or a jerk. Take your pick.

Iran just needs to behave.

[seacoaster]

"The Iranian leadership are just a bunch of poor misunderstood people who are the Rodney Dangerfields of the ME... they just can't get any respect. I get where all of you are coming from. Iran would love us if it wasn't for those damn Jews and the right wing hate mongers in the USA. Got it... message received."

A ridiculous post. No one here has said anything like this.

[a fan]

Oh knock it off a fan...no one wants to see a war...just stop with that nonsense.

Then why are you advocating reneging on the Obama deal that gave us four years of peace, and no nukes?

I posted the other day that war was inevitable if the Iran regime doesn't change it's behavior. That's an observation, an opinion, not war mongering. If you don't see the difference, then you're either being totally obtuse or a jerk. Take your pick.

I absolutely see the difference.

What you don't seem to get is that you advocated for America to change its behavior by pulling out of the JCPOA, seemingly oblivious to the fact that that change in America's behavior will, and has, make Iran change its behavior.

We made the first move to your "inevitable war". Not Iran. We did.

Trump pulled out of a peaceful deal, and put us on a path to your "inevitable war".

If you don't see this, you're either being totally obtuse, or a jerk. Take your pick.

[a fan]

And here we go boys.

Don't forget: tech, old salt, and cradleandshoot ASKED that we take this path. Hope you're all thrilled with your brilliant "strategy".

President Donald Trump threatened Iran with "obliteration" on Tuesday, saying that an attack on "anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force."

"In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!" the President tweeted.


We're going to go to war over little D's and R's, tech (Trump bringing up Kerry and Obama) Way to go, mate.

All it takes is one Iranian hardliner at the controls of a missile battery, and it's game on. Sweet. Boy, good thing we brought the plainly much smarter Trump administration to fix a nuclear deal that was working.

Because if Trump didn't save the day, we might have four more agonizing years where Iran doesn't get a nuke. And we can't have that, can we boys..


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/politics ... index.html

The Iranians don't believe him, which is dangerous. They have seen him in action in this crises, they have seen him in action with the North Koreans and the only conclusion you can draw is he is a paper tiger. They know like the rest of the world Trump's game is to create a problem, bluster about it then claim victory where nothing has changed. Trump is not going to pull the trigger, he is going to arrange to be "held back" by the democrats. Need a new AUMF of some such excuse. "Look at what Iran did and the democrats would not let me destroy them." He doesn't care about the world, he cares about himself. Pulling the trigger is not good for him and he knows it. The Iranians have him right where they want him.

This is deads nuts on the money, I can't imagine the leaders of the world looking at Trump as anything other than what he is, a big blowhard buffoon

Try explaining that to FoxNation. They're convinced that Trump is always projecting toughness. It would never occur to them to consider how other leaders view Trump based on his actual actions.

[tech37]

I absolutely see the difference.

Sure you do a fan...keep posting your strawman arguments and misrepresenting what I (and others) say. Can't imagine your methods are what the Jesuits had in mind

[a fan]

My method is simple.

Make tech37 put a stake in the ground, and don't let him move it around to suit slippery logic. You get mad when I make you put a stake in the ground. You do everything to avoid doing it...and you know it.

In this case, the stake is: you're upset that Obama signed the nuke deal based on intel that (shocker) isn't perfect.

So that means you prefer that Obama not sign that deal. Which means we have no deal at all. Which means that you are conceding that Iran gets the bomb. This is your "inevitable war". The rest of us think you're batsh*t crazy for using logic that intentionally leads to war.

And when i point out the consequences of your stake in the ground (not wanting Obama to sign the JCPOA based on imperfect intel), you get mad, and accuse me of building a strawman.

Rinse. Repeat.

[tech37]

Oh knock it off a fan...no one wants to see a war...just stop with that nonsense.

Then why are you advocating reneging on the Obama deal that gave us four years of peace, and no nukes?
Peace? Do you call aggressive actions directed against our allies, peace? You call "death to America" peace

And one more time!... you don't know if the nuke program was stopped...too many sites off limits to inspectors. Do you understand that a fan?

I posted the other day that war was inevitable if the Iran regime doesn't change it's behavior. That's an observation, an opinion, not war mongering. If you don't see the difference, then you're either being totally obtuse or a jerk. Take your pick.

What you don't seem to get is that you advocated for America to change its behavior by pulling out of the JCPOA, seemingly oblivious to the fact that that change in America's behavior will, and has, make Iran change its behavior. That's just false and you know it is.

We made the first move to your "inevitable war". Not Iran. We did. Wrong again and you know it. Stop being silly.

Trump pulled out of a peaceful deal, and put us on a path to your "inevitable war". And Iran has had no responsibility what so ever?! I love it a fan! You're the one who is insane!

[seacoaster]

Meanwhile, the Prince of New York has a plan:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ast-227209

"Putting economics first, before a political process, is more than a tactical error, yet another in a long line of failed attempts to advance towards a permanent two-state solution. The Trump administration’s focus on economics—led by Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner—is a strategic mistake that could stymie the negotiations before they begin. If Trump and his team studied history, they would know that placing economics before core political issues is a slap in the face to the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinians want to improve their quality of life; of course they want to build a growing economy. But these are secondary goals, to be pursued after self-determination is achieved. If the Palestinians could be “bought” with economic benefits, we would be long past the need for talks. Trump’s approach is not only immoral, it is impractical.

The truth is that economics were never enough to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Paris Agreement, which followed the Oslo Accords—a set of agreements between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization signed in the 1990s that were never implemented to the letter—focused on economics, and it did not salvage the deterioration of the security situation that resulted in the second intifada, a bloody 4-year Palestinian revolt against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. Neither the first nor the second intifadas broke out for economic reasons (the Palestinian economy was not faring badly, relatively speaking). They erupted because the way forward was unclear, and because the Palestinians felt that the economic benefits offered would not lead to the end of the occupation. High hopes for trust-building had been dashed against the absence of a political plan to end the conflict. This void nurtured despair and disappointment, leading to angry uprisings that cost many lives on both sides.

That is the very real danger we are facing again. By putting economics first while ignoring the end game, Trump is repeating a colossal mistake: resuming talks without defining the end goal. For both Palestinians and Israelis, that goal should be ending the occupation and establishing a Palestinian state alongside Israel within 1967 borders, with necessary land swaps. Unless both parties and the mediating power state this clearly at the outset, the expectations gap will breed mistrust. Thus, sitting down together will be futile. This will lead to further disillusionment—and escalating violence. Unless the goal of the talks is explicitly defined as ending the conflict and establishing a Palestinian state, more lives will be lost."

[a fan]

Oh yeah, this is going to go brilliantly.

Headline: President Donald Trump in an announcement Monday said the US was imposing sanctions on Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini — who has been dead since 1989.


Headline: After the sanctions against Khamenei were announced, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani said the Trump White House had "mental retardation."


Come on boys. Tell us how awesome this "strategy" is. Dazzle us with buffalo bagels.




https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-a ... RXN3BnAyPg

[LandM]

Forever, now that is a damn funny question IMHO

MD,
Please do not confuse me with a Trumpster or whatever the popular term is - you are sounding like my wife . BTW, I highly respect her intelligence. Just for her, I am taking a selfie with my 2020 ballot so she knows, hopefully jail is not an option

I wish a combat control team (SEALS are over-rated ) did a recon mission, stole every phone that he has, bleached bit it; smashed them with sledgehammers; nuked it in a microwave and disposed of it in a big hole in NV (72 I got the spelling right) - this HRC and I agree on

To your point point about intelligence:
1. Vietnam and dominoes - swing and a miss;
2. 9/11 - we were tracking the guys - swing and a miss;
3. Afghanistan pre-9/11 - swing and a miss, heck we created the Tailban as those pesky Russians were going to take over the world - few years after 9/11 great job - this is a nightmare now IMHO;
4. Russia - many trained to slay the Russians - swing and a miss;
5. Iran - swing and a miss;
6. Libya - swing and a miss;
7. Syria - swing and a miss
I am sure others out here have had a few swings and misses with the intelligence community - we use to chuckle when the sentence started, "we have great intel" - already then . In fairness those guys have an unbelievable job.......tough work.
The UN inspectors are bard from going to certain places. Do I blame the Iranians on that - nope - image someone sniffing in your backyard. I rely on the intel of my dad - finances and cyber - they will be crawling back and then hopefully they will stop messing around in the ME and training their buddies in Europe.

afan, no one that I know who has ever worn a uniform wants to go to war and I am pretty sure you are debating with the wrong folks with that argument, just a guess.

[tech37]

My method is simple.

Make tech37 put a stake in the ground, and don't let him move it around to suit slippery logic. You get mad when I make you put a stake in the ground. You do everything to avoid doing it...and you know it.

In this case, the stake is: you're upset that Obama signed the nuke deal based on intel that (shocker) isn't perfect.

So that means you prefer that Obama not sign that deal. Which means we have no deal at all. Which means that you are conceding that Iran gets the bomb. This is your "inevitable war". The rest of us think you're batsh*t crazy for using logic that intentionally leads to war.

And when i point out the consequences of your stake in the ground (not wanting Obama to sign the JCPOA based on imperfect intel), you get mad, and accuse me of building a strawman.

Rinse. Repeat.

oh my gawd... the vortex is alive and well

[Typical Lax Dad]

Oh yeah, this is going to go brilliantly.

Headline: President Donald Trump in an announcement Monday said the US was imposing sanctions on Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini — who has been dead since 1989.


Headline: After the sanctions against Khamenei were announced, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani said the Trump White House had "mental retardation."


Come on boys. Tell us how awesome this "strategy" is. Dazzle us with buffalo bagels.




https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-a ... RXN3BnAyPg

I told my hayseed buddies that only knew Trump from TV that when they get to see him in real life, they will realize how little he knows and how unimpressive he will be....they have changed their tunes. You can fool people once. These are hayseeds that gave him a chance....WV/OH. Not going to happen again.