Our Undeclared Wars

[jhu72]

Cross your legs Mr Instant gratification, Trump's just getting started.

Great news. His term is almost over. 2 1/2 years, and not one single sit down, and you're accusing me of being impatient? Yeah, ok.


You're doing a whole lot of dancing to avoid admitting Trump F'ed up here.

Oh well. You won't admit it. But I know you agree. And that's enough for me. Let's move on....

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson ... g-n2086372 So lets get this squared away a Fan. The United States Senate never had the opportunity to ratify this thing Obama conjured up and the Iranian government refused to sign this thing that Obama conjured up and yet you get this warm fuzzy sense of security that something was actually accomplished here. The only thing that was accomplished here was that the Iranians conned that dumb fudge Obama out of a lot of cold hard cash. Sure it was just a coincidence that the transfer of cash just happened to occur when Iran released the people they had held hostage. If those C130's had never been spotted on the ground in Iran it is very likely this transfer of cash would never have been acknowledged by the US government... EVER. So much for transparency on this little transaction...

Sorry - but right wing rags like "Townhall" are lying on this matter (they are not the only one). The Iranians did ratify the agreement - passed it through parliament 161-59 with 13 abstentions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fa ... 0fed1bdb04 WAPO gives this claim 4 Pinocchios.

Everyone else signed it, including Obama. Agreed that the Senate did not ratify, and never had any intention under McConnell to even consider it.

[youthathletics]

Speaking of John Bolton, this is, well, funny-not-funny.

[jhu72]

Obama and our allies got them to stop their nuke program. You act like that's a trifle. A nothing.

Forget the little Ds and Rs schtick for once and consider reality.

What proof do you have to show Iran stopped their nuke program under JCPOA? And, how you can possibly trust the Mullahs is beyond me.

They have continued their long range ballistic missile development and not allowed inspectors into military sites. Those are the reasons Trump's admin broke from JCPOA and rightly so.

So where's the proof a fan since you and others are so certain Iran complied under JCPOA? Hint: You're kidding yourselves...

Total BS as usual. This coming from the guy who loses sleep for fear that Trump is becoming a fascist, authoritarian dictator, and yet is quick to support the real life religio-fascists ruling Iran...talk about BS!

US space based radiation monitoring says there is no change in the military facilities. We have their detailed radiation profiles concurrent with our inspection of the facilities just prior to deal signing. We have seen no new unexplained construction at these sites. On the ground UN monitors are telling you the sites they are inspecting are in compliance and they have access to the space based measurements as well, so they have a complete picture of what is going on. Show us where it says that spaced-based instruments can detect radiation in underground facilities in Iran.


Missiles were never part of the agreement. No *hit... That's why I've been saying the deal was flawed from the start. JCPOA was a temporary attempt to stop Iran from getting the bomb, yet allowed for the bomb delivery system to be developed...just brilliant! And, the regime has broken and continues to break UN Resolutions against the development of ballistic missiles but of course you're okie dokie with that since they're your BFFs (Best Fascist Friends). You want to limit the missiles - negotiate a separate deal, they were never on the table. Again, no *hit...and silly comment, the Iran regime will not negotiate with the Trump admin.

Of course with the nuclear deal in place and the passage of time you have a solid foundation to build on based in trust in both directions to negotiate a missile agreement. Kiss that good bye.

The deal was signed not because we trust the mullahs, it was signed because we trust our technology and our people! Hang it up 72...you've been wrong about so much these past couple years it's not even funny.

tech37, it's perfectly reasonable to critique the JCPOA (except that it indeed prevent Iran from getting a bomb on the timetable everyone expected, including the expectations of our allies like Israel) as not addressing every issue we have with Iran. It definitely didn't address all issues.

But, you're right, there's no way Iran negotiates with the Trump administration, because they know with 100% certainty that the Trump crew will not keep their word, and will accept nothing less than regime change. Oh I absolutely disagree. Do not conflate Bolton with Trump. Rightly or wrongly, if the mullahs come back to the table, Trump will treat them just as he does Kim. I heard a news clip yesterday where Trump said, "make Iran great again"... silly but I believe he means that, but only if they give up their nuke and terrorism-funding ambitions and honorably negotiate. Don't hold your breath. They might well have negotiated with an Administration that offered carrots and consistency, as well as respect, but the Trump folks never attempted that approach. It was all about the politics of criticizing the Obama deal. Nope. It was about them not allowing inspections of military sites, development of ballistic missiles despite UN Resolutions, and about the continued funding of terrorism and proxy wars. Were politics involved?...of course but not without solid reasons behind the politics for walking.

I don't see '72 or anyone else on here cheerleading for the current Iranian system of government. We can walk and chew gum as recognizing that they are a dangerous regime, an adversary, indeed a part Bush's 'axis of evil', while also decrying the rise of authoritarianism under Trump. No one on here's 'okie dokie' with the Iranians. We just think that Trump and his team are committing massive international malpractice. The USA is 'our team', we want better.

BTW, show us where we don't have that technology. We do.
It's definitely not the only way we monitor Iran though.

It is more difficult, but not impossible to detect radiation from an underground facility. Dirt, rocks, lead, etc don't stop all radiation. Even air will filter the radiation, just not as well as higher density materials. But this is not really the point. You don't have to be able to "see" underground. If it is moved above ground within the site, you will "see it". If it is moved between sites you will "see it". We know their military sites did not have production capability because they where baseline inspected. We can observe new construction optically. We can hear it under certain conditions during construction. The ability to remotely monitor for radiation knowing its site profile at baseline is sufficient to guarantee they are not producing nuclear materials. If we can show cause - ie. data that makes us suspicious, the treaty allows us to perform inspections upon notice.

We have been through this before. Real live nuclear and particle physicists have designed the protocols for monitoring these sites. They know their business and aren't going to allow for holes in the system. They know the capabilities of their detector systems far better than you and the details far better than I.

Underground? Good luck professor...

https://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publicati ... _Habib.pdf

CONCLUSION
The simple model presented here shows that any long range detection of centrifuge plants through their electromagnetic signature in the atmosphere is not possible. However, within 0.5–3 kilometer range of the plant, this might be aviable technique if there is no aluminum casing present around the motor. If themotor is encased in aluminum that is more than 10 mm thick, the detectablity of a clandestine plant is reduced to within a few hundred meters.

-- nice try, I applaud your doing some research, but the article you point to is irrelevant to the type of radiation we are talking about. This is radio frequency radiation being discussed in the article, this is much lower frequency radiation, not even close to the same part of the spectrum we are talking about for nuclear radiation. In deed good luck with that professor ….

Fine. So why stop there? What types of radiation given off by spinning centrifuges, hidden underground, can be detected from space-based instruments?

C'mon educate us 72!

It's low power radio frequency (as I said) and that will not penetrate very far into the rock or dirt. Won't escape at all from a perfectly sealed metal building (Faraday Cage), which is how to shield it from any electromagnetic detector system outside the building. (The conclusion you present talks about an "aluminum shield" - this is also a Faraday Cage).

[old salt]

Cross your legs Mr Instant gratification, Trump's just getting started.

Great news. His term is almost over. 2 1/2 years, and not one single sit down, and you're accusing me of being impatient? Yeah, ok.


You're doing a whole lot of dancing to avoid admitting Trump F'ed up here.

Oh well. You won't admit it. But I know you agree. And that's enough for me. Let's move on....

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson ... g-n2086372 So lets get this squared away a Fan. The United States Senate never had the opportunity to ratify this thing Obama conjured up and the Iranian government refused to sign this thing that Obama conjured up and yet you get this warm fuzzy sense of security that something was actually accomplished here. The only thing that was accomplished here was that the Iranians conned that dumb fudge Obama out of a lot of cold hard cash. Sure it was just a coincidence that the transfer of cash just happened to occur when Iran released the people they had held hostage. If those C130's had never been spotted on the ground in Iran it is very likely this transfer of cash would never have been acknowledged by the US government... EVER. So much for transparency on this little transaction...

Sorry - but right wing rags like "Townhall" are lying on this matter (they are not the only one). The Iranians did ratify the agreement - passed it through parliament 161-59 with 13 abstentions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fa ... 0fed1bdb04 WAPO gives this claim 4 Pinocchios.

Everyone else signed it, including Obama. Agreed that the Senate did not ratify, and never had any intention under McConnell to even consider it.

Your Wash Post fact checker does not address the article c&s linked or the State Dept ltr to Rep Pompeo.

[LandM]

72,
Potato/patato
Many years ago, I was looking to buy a company to add to what we are doing. My accountant could not figure out why all the due diligence info was not matching. We are in a meeting with his accountant and him and he tells his accountant to get the f'ing out of the room. The guy looks at us and in his inventory was a horse, trainer, jockey salary, living space and food. If he would have told us ahead of time he would not have wasted the time and money on both sides of the transaction. We passed. You are relying on what people tell you and I think what folks are saying is we did not do allot of due diligence then again maybe we did but many seem not to be aware of it. I will admit to ignorance if applicable.
Best

[jhu72]

The right wing press at the time spun many stories all with the same punch line, "Iran didn't ratify the agreement". WAPO fact checkers clearly find that they did. Don't think the mechanism for how they "didn't ratify" matters when the fact checkers found they did "ratify".

[cradleandshoot]

The right wing press at the time spun many stories all with the same punch line, "Iran didn't ratify the agreement". WAPO fact checkers clearly find that they did. Don't think the mechanism for how they "didn't ratify" matters when the fact checkers found they did "ratify".

They did not sign the agreement because they considered it for the BS document that it was. Probably for the same reason BHO did not have the balls to put forth his agreement to the US senate. The Senate knew it would not pass the stink test, just like the Iranian leaders knew all along...

[cradleandshoot]

The right wing press at the time spun many stories all with the same punch line, "Iran didn't ratify the agreement". WAPO fact checkers clearly find that they did. Don't think the mechanism for how they "didn't ratify" matters when the fact checkers found they did "ratify".

They did not sign the agreement because they considered it for the BS document that it was. Probably for the same reason BHO did not have the balls to put forth his agreement to the US senate. The Senate knew it would not pass the stink test

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/i ... ot-binding

https://unitedwithisrael.org/state-depa ... lear-deal/

Now 72 if you have other proof that says otherwise why don't you graduate past your right wing argument and post the real truth. It shouldn't be hard for a person with a superiority complex that you have been blessed with to share with everyone... Short of that you are just doing what you do best... pulling stuff out of your arse... :Dhttps://www.scribd.com/document/291042867/Lette ... from_embed This letter to Mike Pompaeo states very clearly the article in question was never a signed document. Whatever the eff it was is clearly the type of FLP gobblydygook you understand so very well. The verification aspect is even more of a joke given all of the restrictions the Iranians put into place.https://freebeacon.com/national-securit ... perts-say/

[OCanada]

Lol Pompeo has lied under oath. Several of your sources are not known as reliable either; being more inclined to motivational thinking than analysis. The NR has fallen far from the days of Buckley. He would hate what it has become.

We are now demanding that Iran live up to the very agreement we pulled out of when Trump was elected and every party agreed they were abiding by the terms as approved by a UN Security Council Resolution. It was agreed and understood the agreement could evolve.



Further we abided by the agreement to withdraw from it. Meaning we recognized its validity. Bolton et al are scamming everyone on Iran. Trump accused Obama of wanting to go to war with Iran because he had “low” poll numbers. Trump has very low approval numbers. Bolton has wanted a war with Iran for decades.

The fact is the administration has no plan after starting a war. There was no plan in Iraq either. They can’t explain to the American people what the war would look like, how much it would cost, what the end game is, what they are going to do in Iran etc.

Recall Afghanistan? Bush was warned about what would happen there. Did it anyway and it worked out as he was warned.

Remember our troops going to Venezuela? Remember our get tough with NK? Hard to recall. Venezuela would be a picnic compared to Iran and our casualty numbers would be much higher.

Iran, we were warned. was within months of getting nukes. The agreement was executed and they still don’t have them and they abided by its terms but Trump decided to pull out with no plan to deal with the consequences of his idiocy. And now with low poll numbers he needs a victory anyplace going into the election. Cost be damned. Then there are geniuses like Sen Cotton claiming we bomb them twice and it’s done. A total fool.

The USA created the Iran “problem”in the first place by using regime change to depose the democratically elected president of Iran and replacing him with the Shah who was a totalitarian tyrant. Trump would have loved him. We did that to further the interests of the oil industry

[tech37]

Iran, we were warned. was within months of getting nukes.

Just what makes you and a fan so certain the intel was accurate? You cite intel when it helps make your case? Seems to me that any intel since Colin Powell addressed the world re WMD in Iraq, should be skeptically viewed. And given their track record, I would not be surprised if any intel utilized by Obama and his peops, had been highly propagandized

[OCanada]

Just what makes me sure??

Well intel is only as good as its most recent reveal. But given that constraint what makes you think it was wrong and that any thing current is right?

But to answer your question the consensus of all parties who were signatories at the time was the intel was correct. That includes some of the best intel gathering agencies in the world. Mossad also.

Possibly they were wrong but regardless it is a bet we could not afford to lose. You should not make bets you can’t afford to lose.

[MDlaxfan76]

This discussion has again revealed the cult.

Ignore all intelligence.
Deep State.
Obama hates America. He's a Muslim!
Fake News.

I exaggerate of course, but these themes underlie the right wing posts on this topic.

This has been an incredibly dumb argument (LandM, I think your questions were sincere), but the rest of the Trumpist baloney has been all-in cultish.

Any reasonable discussion would recognize that the situation of Iran is immensely problematic, faced by President after President, and the drum beat for war had ratcheted up from the right and from Israel about the imminence of Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon and the likely nuclear proliferation across the ME starting in Saudi Arabia. It was a very difficult situation, as the Obama administration recognized that military conflict with Iran would have enormous blowback. So, they cut a deal. One that can be easily criticized as incomplete, imperfect, but a deal nevertheless that provided a window for further progress toward bringing Iran into international normalized relations, economic interdependencies, etc. It was partially working as Iran did suspend its nuclear weapons program and moderates gained in power within Iranian politics. Way better than the most likely alternative course Iran was on. But at the same time the hard liners continued to be involved across the ME in the inter-muslim conflicts.

Enter the stupidity and corruption of the Trump administration, kowtowing to the royal of family of Saudi Arabia while making a show of alliance with the hardliners in Israel. Hate Obama? We'll unwind anything and everything Obama worked on during his tenure.

[cradleandshoot]

This discussion has again revealed the cult.

Ignore all intelligence.
Deep State.
Obama hates America. He's a Muslim!
Fake News.

I exaggerate of course, but these themes underlie the right wing posts on this topic.

This has been an incredibly dumb argument (LandM, I think your questions were sincere), but the rest of the Trumpist baloney has been all-in cultish.

Any reasonable discussion would recognize that the situation of Iran is immensely problematic, faced by President after President, and the drum beat for war had ratcheted up from the right and from Israel about the imminence of Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon and the likely nuclear proliferation across the ME starting in Saudi Arabia. It was a very difficult situation, as the Obama administration recognized that military conflict with Iran would have enormous blowback. So, they cut a deal. One that can be easily criticized as incomplete, imperfect, but a deal nevertheless that provided a window for further progress toward bringing Iran into international normalized relations, economic interdependencies, etc. It was partially working as Iran did suspend its nuclear weapons program and moderates gained in power within Iranian politics. Way better than the most likely alternative course Iran was on. But at the same time the hard liners continued to be involved across the ME in the inter-muslim conflicts.

Enter the stupidity and corruption of the Trump administration, kowtowing to the royal of family of Saudi Arabia while making a show of alliance with the hardliners in Israel. Hate Obama? We'll unwind anything and everything Obama worked on during his tenure.

On a personal level MD... I have no trust in the present leadership in Iran. When hear and read repeatedly shouts of death to America... death to Israel it makes me wonder what the fanatical religious wing in Iran hopes to accomplish. Inflammatory hate filled rhetoric is not how 2 countries build mutual trust and respect for each other. The actions of the powers that be in Iran over the past 30 plus years have not proven otherwise. They were responsible for the manufacture and distribution of many of the IEDs that killed and maimed so many members of our military. They are most likely responsible for the ever increasing numbers and sophistication of the rockets finding their way in to Gaza. They are the main support network of an increasingly more aggressive network of terrorist groups. IMO when they dial it back then there will be room for discussion. Repeated calls for death to America/ Israel sure is not a very productive way to start a conversation.

[tech37]

Possibly they were wrong but regardless it is a bet we could not afford to lose.

"Wrong" isn't the issue. To be clear... exaggerated/propagandized to make the case. Obama politicized everything, IMHO

[jhu72]

The right wing press at the time spun many stories all with the same punch line, "Iran didn't ratify the agreement". WAPO fact checkers clearly find that they did. Don't think the mechanism for how they "didn't ratify" matters when the fact checkers found they did "ratify".

They did not sign the agreement because they considered it for the BS document that it was. Probably for the same reason BHO did not have the balls to put forth his agreement to the US senate. The Senate knew it would not pass the stink test, just like the Iranian leaders knew all along...

Wrong.

So why did the Iranians "live to the agreement" for the past 4 years if they considered it BS. The rest of the world thinks you and the US right wing are BS.

[jhu72]

Just what makes me sure??

Well intel is only as good as its most recent reveal. But given that constraint what makes you think it was wrong and that any thing current is right?

But to answer your question the consensus of all parties who were signatories at the time was the intel was correct. That includes some of the best intel gathering agencies in the world. Mossad also.

Possibly they were wrong but regardless it is a bet we could not afford to lose. You should not make bets you can’t afford to lose.

At the time the people selling the "months to a bomb" story was ISRAEL trying to whip up a war (Bolton joined the chorus). The situation described by American physicists, sounded more like they where a year away from having enough fissile material, IMO. The best measure and knowledge is based on the inspection regimen at the time of signing the agreement. Said less than a year at that time IIRC.

[cradleandshoot]

but

The right wing press at the time spun many stories all with the same punch line, "Iran didn't ratify the agreement". WAPO fact checkers clearly find that they did. Don't think the mechanism for how they "didn't ratify" matters when the fact checkers found they did "ratify".

They did not sign the agreement because they considered it for the BS document that it was. Probably for the same reason BHO did not have the balls to put forth his agreement to the US senate. The Senate knew it would not pass the stink test, just like the Iranian leaders knew all along...

Wrong.

So why did the Iranians "live to the agreement" for the past 4 years if they considered it BS. The rest of the world thinks you and the US right wing are BS.

The Iranians don't have to live up to diddly squat. They are patient to wait out whatever the heck this thing was that they had with BHO. They let the inspector Clouseau brigade from the U.N. run around rumbling, stumbling and bumbling for a few years until this thin with Obama sunsets and they can continue on their merry way. Nothing changes it just takes a little longer to accomplish the end game. Unless of course the US has more C130 aircraft loaded with cash waiting in the wings.

[foreverlax]

This discussion has again revealed the cult.

Ignore all intelligence.
Deep State.
Obama hates America. He's a Muslim!
Fake News.

I exaggerate of course, but these themes underlie the right wing posts on this topic.

This has been an incredibly dumb argument (LandM, I think your questions were sincere), but the rest of the Trumpist baloney has been all-in cultish.

Any reasonable discussion would recognize that the situation of Iran is immensely problematic, faced by President after President, and the drum beat for war had ratcheted up from the right and from Israel about the imminence of Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon and the likely nuclear proliferation across the ME starting in Saudi Arabia. It was a very difficult situation, as the Obama administration recognized that military conflict with Iran would have enormous blowback. So, they cut a deal. One that can be easily criticized as incomplete, imperfect, but a deal nevertheless that provided a window for further progress toward bringing Iran into international normalized relations, economic interdependencies, etc. It was partially working as Iran did suspend its nuclear weapons program and moderates gained in power within Iranian politics. Way better than the most likely alternative course Iran was on. But at the same time the hard liners continued to be involved across the ME in the inter-muslim conflicts.

Enter the stupidity and corruption of the Trump administration, kowtowing to the royal of family of Saudi Arabia while making a show of alliance with the hardliners in Israel. Hate Obama? We'll unwind anything and everything Obama worked on during his tenure.

On a personal level MD... I have no trust in the present leadership in Iran. When hear and read repeatedly shouts of death to America... death to Israel it makes me wonder what the fanatical religious wing in Iran hopes to accomplish. Inflammatory hate filled rhetoric is not how 2 countries build mutual trust and respect for each other. The actions of the powers that be in Iran over the past 30 plus years have not proven otherwise. They were responsible for the manufacture and distribution of many of the IEDs that killed and maimed so many members of our military. They are most likely responsible for the ever increasing numbers and sophistication of the rockets finding their way in to Gaza. They are the main support network of an increasingly more aggressive network of terrorist groups. IMO when they dial it back then there will be room for discussion. Repeated calls for death to America/ Israel sure is not a very productive way to start a conversation.

"I have no trust in the present leadership in Iran"....Serious question - does that imply you trust the US leadership?

[a fan]

Possibly they were wrong but regardless it is a bet we could not afford to lose.

"Wrong" isn't the issue. To be clear... exaggerated/propagandized to make the case. Obama politicized everything, IMHO

So rather than concede that the JCPOA is obviously working (no bomb in four years, mate), you boys are on here throwing stones at Obama.

The best part is that none of the stone throwers here have a better plan than what Obama signed.

What this means, obviously, is that you'd rather have Iran get a nuclear weapon than admit that Obama did something right.

You're all insane. And what's worse is, guys who think like you are running the country.

[a fan]

And here we go boys.

Don't forget: tech, old salt, and cradleandshoot ASKED that we take this path. Hope you're all thrilled with your brilliant "strategy".

President Donald Trump threatened Iran with "obliteration" on Tuesday, saying that an attack on "anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force."

"In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!" the President tweeted.


We're going to go to war over little D's and R's, tech (Trump bringing up Kerry and Obama) Way to go, mate.

All it takes is one Iranian hardliner at the controls of a missile battery, and it's game on. Sweet. Boy, good thing we brought the plainly much smarter Trump administration to fix a nuclear deal that was working.

Because if Trump didn't save the day, we might have four more agonizing years where Iran doesn't get a nuke. And we can't have that, can we boys..


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/politics ... index.html