Penn State

[ground_bull]

So far 1-1 on the year, 20-15 win over Lafayette and a 12-13 loss to Nova. With more seniors (Traynor, Kelly, Malone, Funk, Peck) leaving after this season this will still be a rebuilding team next year. TJ Malone has been missing from the first two games with no explanation. Anyone have insight as to why or when he'll be back?

Good game today at home versus Vermont. I don't see PSU winning with the caveat that it's a mid week game at home and maybe TJ Malone plays. Looking forward to the rest of season.

[10stone5]

Aleric Fyock had real problems at Lafayette and sat.
Better game against Villanova.
With Fracyon waiting in the wings, goalie is one area Tambroni
does not have to worry about as much as some other areas.

[Henpecked]

Aleric Fyock had real problems at Lafayette and sat.
Better game against Villanova.
With Fracyon waiting in the wings, goalie is one area Tambroni
does not have to worry about as much as some other areas.

Fyock is getting shelled but holding his own. 12 saves in the first half, some spectacular. "We Are" losing 9-5 at half.

[backerzone]

You can't blame Lafayette performance on goalies- playing indoors at Holuba is a goalies nightmare. White ceiling, White walls.

[molo]

Catamounts win.

[BigTom5]

With Tambroni entering his 12th year in Happy Valley, it’s interesting comparing his record to his 10 years at the helm at Cornell.

In 10 seasons at Cornell he had a 73% winning percentage, 8 NCAA tournament appearances, a 10-8 NCAA tourney record with 3 final fours.

In 10 full seasons at PSU he has a 59% winning percentage, 3 NCAA tournament appearances, 2-3 NCAA tourney record with 1 final four.

Penn States invested a ton into the program, built best in class facilities, and are regularly bringing in top 10 recruiting classes (which Cornell rarely did) yet they been wildly mediocre except for the magical 2019 run. Tambroni was always great at player development and getting the most out of his talent during his Cornell years, I always thought those attributes would carry over to PSU, but I am skeptical now.

Interested in hearing from PSU and Cornell followers on what the difference might be. I know people will say that PSU was a complete rebuild compared to what he inherited at Cornell, but he actually had a better record in his first season for the Nittany Lions than at CU.

[10stone5]

Of course, PSU lacrosse is not Cornell lacrosse.
Very different histories.
No real lacrosse folklore built into Penn State’s program relative
to Cornell’s aside from Penn State and Penn being the
cornerstones of Pennsylvania college lacrosse.
Although one could also argue Lehigh and Swarthmore have more
history since both have won men’s national titles.

Tambroni caught lightning in a bottle with Grant Ament,
realized that and built a team around Ament, the 2019 first final
four for PSU team.

As far as the miss on Brennan O’Neill, I feel as if the coaches were all in on O’Neill, so when he backed out, they scrambled to
poach a top rated recruit who it turns out is still developing.

It looks to me as if the past class and the next two will bring in the type of players where they could begin to compete again with the top B1Gs, especially one 2023 recruit. Otherwise, its a wait and see type thing, this year and next, for PSU, a slow build.

[faircornell]

I'm not sure it's a simple answer. Clearly, PSU is in a rebuilding year. I would note a few "macro" points as to winning percentages:

1. Initial rebuilding of the program at PSU
2. Strength of schedule at PSU is greater than at Cornell during the relevant years
3. Emergence of the Big Ten as a lacrosse powerhouse (SOS)
4. And (possibly) a more competitive recruiting environment

Generally, there are more high quality college lacrosse programs today than a decade ago.

[jrn19]

I think his run at PSU is littered with what if’s and moments that with a little luck/went the other way looks so much better

- what if they beat Yale in 1R in 2013? Yale nearly beat Cuse in QF that year
- What if CAA doesn’t bar them from the conf tournament in 2014? They probably win it and go on to the NCAAT, two appearances in a row going into the B1G
- What if they beat Towson at home in 2017? Towson did beat Cuse in QF’s that year
- What if Ament doesn’t miss the season in 2018? Probably another NCAA berth
- 2019 obviously with being unable to take home the trophy
- 2020 another obviously, they were going to be in the mix
- Brennan O’Neill sticks with his recruitment

Feels like aside from bringing in Ament/O’Keefe, every pivotal moment has gone away from them. When it’s that many that haven’t gone your way, perhaps it’s something you’ve done wrong and ultimately on you. But I don’t think they’ve been as far away as it seems. Just a lot of fork in the road moments that they’ve unfortunately gone the wrong way.

[xxxxxxx]

What if Sabia goes to Mt St Mary's?
What if Malone goes to Amherst?
What if the Queen had ba.....?

You could say that about most teams. Bottom line is he hasn't gotten it done and looks at least a few years away. More bad news for Tambroni is Cael Sanderson arrived the same year and PSU wrestling had a similar history. All he has done is win 8 National Championships, tough comparison but a real one in their Athletic Department. You won't hear a lot of "what ifs" from the wrestling community. Looks like its going to be a long year in happy valley.

[InsiderRoll]

What if Sabia goes to Mt St Mary's?
What if Malone goes to Amherst?
What if the Queen had ba.....?

You could say that about most teams. Bottom line is he hasn't gotten it done and looks at least a few years away. More bad news for Tambroni is Cael Sanderson arrived the same year and PSU wrestling had a similar history. All he has done is win 8 National Championships, tough comparison but a real one in their Athletic Department. You won't hear a lot of "what ifs" from the wrestling community. Looks like its going to be a long year in happy valley.

I don’t think you have any idea the support Penn state wrestling has. It’s literally a profitable sport there. It’s supported by the PSU community at a far higher rate and always has been. They host wrestling camps so big that they book every hotel in the area just to use the ballrooms because they will get 2-3k kids. They sell out the BJC in 5minutes for matches. (That’s a 16k seat arena). It’s a meca of the sport. Cael Sanderson is also paid about $800k, that’s nearly 4x what Tambroni makes. Apples and oranges.

It’s no doubt that they along with Hopkins got burned by early recruiting. But they’re starting 4 freshmen and 2 Rs freshmen, playing another 3 freshmen heavily. They’re a year or two away.

[BigTom5]

I'm not sure it's a simple answer. Clearly, PSU is in a rebuilding year. I would note a few "macro" points as to winning percentages:

1. Initial rebuilding of the program at PSU
2. Strength of schedule at PSU is greater than at Cornell during the relevant years
3. Emergence of the Big Ten as a lacrosse powerhouse (SOS)
4. And (possibly) a more competitive recruiting environment

Generally, there are more high quality college lacrosse programs today than a decade ago.

I don’t buy it.

1. Was the rebuild more substantial for PSU vs Cornell, sure maybe a little, but it wasn’t a massive difference. When he took over at Cornell in 2001, they hadn’t won a tournament game since 1988, and he went 7-6 in his first year (vs 8-6 in his first year at PSU).
2. Cornell’s strength of schedule was no joke during that decade. Princeton was peak Princeton at the time. Every Ivy team besides Yale made an NCAA tournament appearance in that decade, they had two years with three bids and had one year with four bids. Cornell played Cuse every regular season, and regularly played Duke, UVA, ND, and Army out of conference during that stretch. Not a bad SOS.
3. Emergence of Big Ten as a lacrosse powerhouse? That was the narrative in 2017 when they dominated the tournament, but besides that year it’s been pretty uneven. UMD is a no doubt monster every year, but OSU was only relevant for 2 years, RU for 1 maybe 2, Hopkins was on a big enough decline to get Petro fired, and Mich has been garbage up until now.
4. Hard to argue for or against the competitiveness of the recruiting environment. Whether you put any weight in Ty Xander’s recruiting rankings or not, PSU has brought in higher ranked classes than what Cornell did in the 2000’s. You want to blame it on early recruiting misses, but that’s more a knock on coaching acumen than a problem with the system.

[BigTom5]

It’s just kind of wild that in 2019 everyone was lavishing Tambroni with praise on how his offensive system was so visionary and unstoppable, when in reality he was just riding the strengths of a generational attackman. Once he left, the offensive magic disappeared. And now we have to wait two more years before they are maybe competitive again? The guy will be almost 15 years into his tenure and would have only one year of actual relevance (not counting the cancels 2020 season).

[10stone5]

I think the what-ifs are useful, in response to one of the above poster’s query.
And yes, as far as Penn State wrestling, you just need tune
into the NCAA wrestling tournament to see that Penn State wrestling and Penn State lacrosse aren’t in the same league on
campus. You’re talking about a state which cranks out the top wrestlers year in, year out, and Penn State gets their share of those.

The biggest what-if remains, the Brennan O’Neill decomit, that
really did set Tambroni back.
A lesser what-if, what if Grant Ament had cashed in his Covid
year for one more at PSU, they might have made the tournament
last year.
The 2013 Penn State team was interesting. They were gearing up
for, the worst kept secret, their move to the B1G and had ramped
up their schedule. They were playing great lacrosse and were a
couple overtime game wins versus Notre Dame and OSU where
they might have gotten a top five NCAA seeding. They laid a
couple eggs at season end, got a home field game in the NCAA
tournament, but didn’t play anything like they had played at the
start of 2013.

So, Tambroni, some definite milestones for that program as it
actually exists today, two NCAA seedings, a Final Four and also,
Tambroni is easily the winningest lacrosse percentage-wise at
Penn State lacrosse -
but these milestones, not necessarily ones you’d want to compare
to other B1G teams and certainly not Cornell either.

[Farfromgeneva]

I'm not sure it's a simple answer. Clearly, PSU is in a rebuilding year. I would note a few "macro" points as to winning percentages:

1. Initial rebuilding of the program at PSU
2. Strength of schedule at PSU is greater than at Cornell during the relevant years
3. Emergence of the Big Ten as a lacrosse powerhouse (SOS)
4. And (possibly) a more competitive recruiting environment

Generally, there are more high quality college lacrosse programs today than a decade ago.

I don’t buy it.

1. Was the rebuild more substantial for PSU vs Cornell, sure maybe a little, but it wasn’t a massive difference. When he took over at Cornell in 2001, they hadn’t won a tournament game since 1988, and he went 7-6 in his first year (vs 8-6 in his first year at PSU).
2. Cornell’s strength of schedule was no joke during that decade. Princeton was peak Princeton at the time. Every Ivy team besides Yale made an NCAA tournament appearance in that decade, they had two years with three bids and had one year with four bids. Cornell played Cuse every regular season, and regularly played Duke, UVA, ND, and Army out of conference during that stretch. Not a bad SOS.
3. Emergence of Big Ten as a lacrosse powerhouse? That was the narrative in 2017 when they dominated the tournament, but besides that year it’s been pretty uneven. UMD is a no doubt monster every year, but OSU was only relevant for 2 years, RU for 1 maybe 2, Hopkins was on a big enough decline to get Petro fired, and Mich has been garbage up until now.
4. Hard to argue for or against the competitiveness of the recruiting environment. Whether you put any weight in Ty Xander’s recruiting rankings or not, PSU has brought in higher ranked classes than what Cornell did in the 2000’s. You want to blame it on early recruiting misses, but that’s more a knock on coaching acumen than a problem with the system.

Petro had been rebuilding before tambroni took over and Thiel was 2-11 his last year at PSU. As a fellow ECAC member w PSU and having played them throughout the 90s I can tell you these PSU teams the last decade are better than most everything PSU was the prior 20yrs.

What you’re selling is a lot of spin that isn’t consistent with what happened in those moments in time. Think the SOS may be a little bit of a red herring comp but the rest is very fair. Especially losing a year of Ament, CAA pulling that lame move in 2014 and ONeill switching a commitment he carried for 3-4yrs.

[Farfromgeneva]

It’s just kind of wild that in 2019 everyone was lavishing Tambroni with praise on how his offensive system was so visionary and unstoppable, when in reality he was just riding the strengths of a generational attackman. Once he left, the offensive magic disappeared. And now we have to wait two more years before they are maybe competitive again? The guy will be almost 15 years into his tenure and would have only one year of actual relevance (not counting the cancels 2020 season).

1yr of actual relevance is not accurate at all

[Backinshape]

The start to the season has been rough. There are problems that do not have a quick fix. PSU is a powerhouse program with what looks like, at the moment, a non-powerhouse roster. Players win games. Ament and O'Keefe (along with some really big, skilled, athletic role players) got the program to the final 4. The PSU culture that Tambroni has cultivated has remained in tact, but the players on the roster are not similar.

The most well known trainer of HS face off athletes is an alum. I am sure he is consulted when evaluating the position. The process of who is recruited to face off at PSU might need a shake-up.

The defense has been really bad. The worst team from the Patriot league scored 15 goals against this squad. The eye test is as bad as the statistics. The identity of the group could use a shift. This squad does not have the big, physical poles and SSDM's that rarely need to be slid to which allow you to sit back and build a wall in front of the goal and get stops. Becoming more dynamic with slide packages and less reliant on match-ups or maybe becoming a zone dominant unit could be possible fixes.

The offense has been really sloppy, but there are signs of hope. The unit doesn't have an alpha at the moment.

[Henpecked]

I don't disagree that the CAA pulled a lame move in Penn State's last year in the conference. But let's not get carried away. That team was 7-6. Hardly a juggernaut.

They also lost to a 13 win Drexel team that year, who went on to win the CAA and beat Penn in the first round. To assume that they would have won the CAA and beaten a team in the first round is bit of a stretch.

And please, enough with the Brennan O'Neill BS. The kid committed in 8th grade and decommitted his Junior year. How many top teams lose top level commits later than that and still go on to successful seasons? Seems like a lot of crying over spilt milk.

The last thing I will say, someone mentioned that Penn State lacrosse does not get support vis-a-vis the wrestling program. Tambroni makes a ton of dough and they built him a freakin' lacrosse stadium. How much more support do you need for a program that loses tons of cash annually?

I like Tambroni. I think he is a great coach, but these excuses are super lame IMO. I know that he would personally be embarrassed by these excuses. The Navy says "No Excuses. Nobody cares" I like that.

[BigTom5]

It’s just kind of wild that in 2019 everyone was lavishing Tambroni with praise on how his offensive system was so visionary and unstoppable, when in reality he was just riding the strengths of a generational attackman. Once he left, the offensive magic disappeared. And now we have to wait two more years before they are maybe competitive again? The guy will be almost 15 years into his tenure and would have only one year of actual relevance (not counting the cancels 2020 season).

1yr of actual relevance is not accurate at all

Relevance is a subjective term, but my definition is being an actual threat to win a NCAA championship, which only the 2019 PSU squad can qualify for. I guess that’s a bit of a high bar for relevance but it’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it!

[BigTom5]

I don't disagree that the CAA pulled a lame move in Penn State's last year in the conference. But let's not get carried away. That team was 7-6. Hardly a juggernaut.

They also lost to a 13 win Drexel team that year, who went on to win the CAA and beat Penn in the first round. To assume that they would have won the CAA and beaten a team in the first round is bit of a stretch.

And please, enough with the Brennan O'Neill BS. The kid committed in 8th grade and decommitted his Junior year. How many top teams lose top level commits later than that and still go on to successful seasons? Seems like a lot of crying over spilt milk.

The last thing I will say, someone mentioned that Penn State lacrosse does not get support vis-a-vis the wrestling program. Tambroni makes a ton of dough and they built him a freakin' lacrosse stadium. How much more support do you need for a program that loses tons of cash annually?

I like Tambroni. I think he is a great coach, but these excuses are super lame IMO. I know that he would personally be embarrassed by these excuses. The Navy says "No Excuses. Nobody cares" I like that.

Bingo