NCAC 2024

[Quill]

OWU nearly took the regular season. Kenyon was up at the half in NCAC game. Big Red goalie saved 19 against Babson. Without him, the last 3 games wouldn’t be close. Goalie standing on his head is masking how deep the fundamental problems go.

Koch has 2 full recruiting classes in house. How is he developing talent versus the other NCAC teams?

Without an intervention, it’s doubtful he can hold even the NCAC next year. Huge slide for a storied program

[Quill]

Agreed! Burn the uniforms.

[MarionBarry]

Everyone needs to take a step back about Denison losing control of the NCAC and Koch not winning at Denison, etc. You put to much credence in the 15'- '19 years and make it seem.like this program has gone 18-2 every year since the early 90's.

This was the hardest schedule Deniosn ever had. Look at past years, there was cupcakes on there enroute to high win totals. Denison was also known as the team that gets a pass to the quarterfinals because of the teams they have to play in the playoffs. That has now changed with the new playoff format. Denison has never really beaten an juggernauts In The ncaas, with koch or caravana.

Goalie making 19 saves is a koch recruit. That tells you something then.

Lacrosse as a whole is much better than it was 5-10 years ago. Naturally, kenyon and other teams are going to be better because there are more good players out there.

Uniforms aren't great, I agree. And yes they may need to look at some coaching updates.

Denison is fine even if it what a down year

[MarionBarry]

Everyone needs to take a step back about Denison losing control of the NCAC and Koch not winning at Denison, etc. You put to much credence in the 15'- '19 years and make it seem.like this program has gone 18-2 every year since the early 90's.

This was the hardest schedule Deniosn ever had. Look at past years, there was cupcakes on there enroute to high win totals. Denison was also known as the team that gets a pass to the quarterfinals because of the teams they have to play in the playoffs. That has now changed with the new playoff format. Denison has never really beaten an juggernauts In The ncaas, with koch or caravana.

Goalie making 19 saves is a koch recruit. That tells you something then.

Lacrosse as a whole is much better than it was 5-10 years ago. Naturally, kenyon and other teams are going to be better because there are more good players out there.

Uniforms aren't great, I agree. And yes they may need to look at some coaching updates.

Denison is fine even if it what a down year

[Prepschoolkid]

Sat on the Denison loss last night and am finally ready to write my season recap. Twohandsonestick hit on alot of the problems with the program since Koch took over and I want to build on that and also address some other issues with Koch I see as an old washed up alumni of the NCAC.

1). I am nervous for the next couple of seasons based on who the top performers were this year. 5 out of the top 6 point producers were all recruited by the legendary Mike Caravana and after that you have a bunch of high level prep school based players who do not have a lot of experience. This concerns me as we look to the future... especially since we have not seen a team that has been 100% recruited by Koch. Imagine they are going to have the same schedule next year minus one or two ranked games. Nervous but excited to see what the youngens can do in Granville!

2). The coaching staff is a joke besides Koch... trying to be nice. Both bartletts seam like amazing people and I know the father has an amazing resume and history with VMI. However the father is too old to be an Offensive Coordinator and is 100% not in touch with the modern game. I remember when Denison had Zalesky as the OC and damn was that some fun lacrosse to watch. Would love to get peoples opinion on this but I think you need a young hungry OC in college lacrosse who is willing to take some risks. As for the daughter I really do respect what she is trying to do but her resume is not up to par for a historic program like Denison. She coached a national mens league team in Europe... I think Granville high school could beat that team by 5. Time for Koch to look in the mirror and ask himself if he wants to stick around in Granville... would expect two coaching changes this off season.

3). Burn those jerseys.... they are so incredibly ugly. Go back to the classic red and white nikes and dont change them. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and stick to what the people want.

[Nosey Ned]

Denison has never really beaten a juggernauts In The ncaas, with koch or caravana.

WRONG! In 2017 the Big Red faced Lynchburg in the Elite 8 round vying for a spot in the Final Four. Lynchburg came into that game a heavy favorite after beating a highly ranked York at York. The talking heads spewed this same garbage that Denison didn’t play anyone and walked in to the playoffs and would be shown the door by the Hornets. Denison completely outplayed Lynchburg that day, doubling them up 18-9. They went to the Final Four and lost the Salisbury by 1 goal (12-11) in game that came down to the last play of the game. Great play by the Gull pole to thwart the tying goal with seconds left. The Gulls went on to dominate RIT in the Championship game 15-7.

Those 2015-2020 teams you scuff at would have won more than a few of these games that Denison got schooled in this year.

[grelch]

Just quickly looked at scores on insidelacrosse. Tufts up 20-2 in the 2nd qtr.

[Nosey Ned]

Just quickly looked at scores on insidelacrosse. Tufts up 20-2 in the 2nd qtr.

Not sure why you think that post belongs on this thread- unless of course you’re showing your ignorance of mid-west lacrosse conferences. It’s snarky posts like this one that add ZERO value to the discussion (on any thread) that highlight the drop in the quality of this forum many have been lamenting lately. Great job grelch - you’ve shared a lot here - if you’re goal was to simply embarrass the IWU kids and program.

[MarionBarry]

Denison has never really beaten a juggernauts In The ncaas, with koch or caravana.

WRONG! In 2017 the Big Red faced Lynchburg in the Elite 8 round vying for a spot in the Final Four. Lynchburg came into that game a heavy favorite after beating a highly ranked York at York. The talking heads spewed this same garbage that Denison didn’t play anyone and walked in to the playoffs and would be shown the door by the Hornets. Denison completely outplayed Lynchburg that day, doubling them up 18-9. They went to the Final Four and lost the Salisbury by 1 goal (12-11) in game that came down to the last play of the game. Great play by the Gull pole to thwart the tying goal with seconds left. The Gulls went on to dominate RIT in the Championship game 15-7.

Those 2015-2020 teams you scuff at would have won more than a few of these games that Denison got schooled in this year.

I wouldn't exactly call that 2017, 6 loss lynchburg team a juggernaut. Yes, that 2017 denison was very good and they proved it that year. But look at really who they have played to get to the quarterfinals, not exactly murderers row. 2019 a tough draw of concordia Wisconsin and rhodes to get to the quarters, same with '14 and '16.

I dont want to downplay those 2015-2020 teams, all very good, best span in program history, But that 5 year span doesn't make a program. Plenty of multiloss seasons in Denison history. But I would agree that some of those teams would have posted a better record than this year's team. It's about the jimmy and the joes, not the x' and the o's.

Let Kochs younger kids develop and they will be just fine.

[Ncac10]

I am an old DU alum and have followed lax team for many years. We probably have been spoiled by coaches Thompson & Caravana. But losing 15 of 19 ground balls like Friday in q4 vs Babson would not have been tolerated, and shouldn’t be. Not sure about this coaching group. OWU and Kenyon are young and will be formidable opponents the next several years.

[Quill]

Caravana was a throwback to a fraternity row dominated culture DU has actively and aggressively moved away from, for valid reasons

However, a lacrosse coach has to care about more than Jimmy and Joe and shifting that culture. Xs, Os, GBs, TOs, clearing %, and shot selection all matter.

The program is strong enough to be able to care about both. Big Red deserves a coaching staff that is up to that challenge

[oldtimelax]

I got 'no dog' in the discussion of Denison's coaching staff. Certainly the choice of the Bartletts as assistant coaches was unconventional, but both are knowledgeable and smart. There are several examples where female coaches are making their way into both the NBA and the NFL staffs. I can't say if it has hurt recruiting, but both Kenyon and OWU have younger talent that is seeing the field. Most of Denison's All-NCAC picks were seniors, while 8 of 9 Bishops were not. I suspect due to the talent level at Denison, most freshmen and sophomores don't see too much time unless they are among the top 3 or 4 recruits. I would also say to those who are fondly remembering Caravana -- his first two years ('91-'92) he was 7-7 and 8-7 and OWU was beating the Big Red fairly regularly in those early and mid 90's seasons. His best coaching seasons came after his return to Denison in 2009. Eric Koch is a very talented coach and it would be a mistake to run him out of town.

[D3LaxFan2]

Tough year for the NCAC, a conference definitely losing its lacrosse luster.

Formerly, a college coach, now a high school coach and know several players at various schools in the NCAC.

If anything I would say the league is the most interesting it has ever been. While it has forever been a two-horse race with just Denison and OWU, now Kenyon has made it a three-way race. Denison and OWU are clearly backsliding from where they have been historically, while Kenyon is rising, but needs to develop the mental confidence to believe they can compete with Denison and play to their potential in the playoffs.

Wooster and Oberlin have new coaches, who have led their teams to their best ever seasons. Can they continue to improve and begin to challenge the top teams? Time will tell. John Carroll joins the conference in two seasons, and while on paper seems like they will be competitive, I suspect they will take a big step backwards after Gaglio and Morrell graduate. Their small roster indicates recruiting troubles that will catch up with them sooner than later.

[grelch]

Just quickly looked at scores on insidelacrosse. Tufts up 20-2 in the 2nd qtr.

Not sure why you think that post belongs on this thread- unless of course you’re showing your ignorance of mid-west lacrosse conferences. It’s snarky posts like this one that add ZERO value to the discussion (on any thread) that highlight the drop in the quality of this forum many have been lamenting lately. Great job grelch - you’ve shared a lot here - if you’re goal was to simply embarrass the IWU kids and program.

Genuinely wasn't trying to be snarky. I was shocked. If I embarrassed IWU kids I apologize. I was being conversational. And yes, I have no current knowledge of midwest programs. I know Illinois Wesleyan has an excellent program so I was just shocked.

More than that, I actually thought I had posted this in the NCAA '24 thread. For the record, I am a NCAC grad and I played lacrosse but not at the varsity level.

[WhiteCarrera]

Ned (take this for what it's worth) - If you want to talk about being snarky and adding zero value, your reply to grelch wins the prize for both!

FWIW, the second place award for irony goes to Prepschoolkid for his complaining about the "bunch of prep school" players that Koch has recruited.

[Nosey Ned]

Ned (take this for what it's worth) - If you want to talk about being snarky and adding zero value, your reply to grelch wins the prize for both!

FWIW, the second place award for irony goes to Prepschoolkid for his complaining about the "bunch of prep school" players that Koch has recruited.

I’ll grant you that I was definitely more salty than usual. I guess was still in a poor mood over Fridays result. But “zero value”? Absolutely disagree - anyone that might have thought IWU was in the NCAC, knows differently now.

And to grelch - I can see now where you made the thread confusion. My apologies for jumping on you for that. I still think Tufts mauling IWU was not unexpected and it wasn’t necessary to point it out as it was news. Just my opinion. But again most likely a function of my then foul mood.

[The12lov3]

Good to see everyone hugging it out - Amen

[oldtimelax]

Tufts also mauled Stevenson 27-7...thought to be an 'eastern power program' by some.

[Prepschoolkid]

Ned (take this for what it's worth) - If you want to talk about being snarky and adding zero value, your reply to grelch wins the prize for both!

FWIW, the second place award for irony goes to Prepschoolkid for his complaining about the "bunch of prep school" players that Koch has recruited.

There is no Irony in this.... Denison has always recruited prep school kids and if you look at the all americans from Denison over the past decade most of them attended a Prep School. Spencer Buttler and Ben Duhoski attended the Millbrook School. Henry Decamp attended Deerfield. Jake Waxter attended the Gilman school. Chris Broderick attended Thayer. Davis Cronin attended Hebron Academy. Teddy Sawyer McDonogh Schhol.

I can keep going if you want but I will rest my case. My argument has not been against where the kids are recruited from but who he is recruiting. Koch's and his coaches background do not carry the same weight that Caravana's did. I hope the new batch of 'prepschoolkids' can make their mark on the program and help bring Denison back to the level they were from 2016 - 2020.

[FannOLax]

Tough year for the NCAC, a conference definitely losing its lacrosse luster.

Formerly, a college coach, now a high school coach and know several players at various schools in the NCAC.

If anything I would say the league is the most interesting it has ever been. While it has forever been a two-horse race with just Denison and OWU, now Kenyon has made it a three-way race. Denison and OWU are clearly backsliding from where they have been historically, while Kenyon is rising, but needs to develop the mental confidence to believe they can compete with Denison and play to their potential in the playoffs.

Wooster and Oberlin have new coaches, who have led their teams to their best ever seasons. Can they continue to improve and begin to challenge the top teams? Time will tell. John Carroll joins the conference in two seasons, and while on paper seems like they will be competitive, I suspect they will take a big step backwards after Gaglio and Morrell graduate. Their small roster indicates recruiting troubles that will catch up with them sooner than later.

Interesting points about John Carroll. Still better than Hiram!

Yes, the conference is becoming more interesting in terms of moving away from a two-horse race. While it's terrific that Kenyon, Wooster and Oberlin have upped their games, it's also true that the two traditional horses have fallen off the national pace. Perhaps the end of Covid 5th-years and grad-student players will help level the national playing field. Denison should improve as Koch grows into his position. However, for now, the conference seems to have lost its ability to compete toe-to-toe with the likes of Salisbury, which is what my "lost luster" comment was referencing.