Declining Programs

[Kleizaster]

We've had topics about programs on the rise. Now that most teams have played a few games, i've decided to start a topic to discuss perennial top 25 teams that seem to be falling by the wayside and gauge people's levels of concern for these programs. Feel free to include programs not listed here. I'll start.

1. Duke: The blue devils are in serious trouble. They are noticeably worse than they were last year. Katie DeSimone, who is a great player no one talks about, has stuck it out for the blue devils and will be gone after this year. There is no one else behind her who is remotely close to shouldering her level of production or impact. Past few years Duke relied heavily on Maddie Jenner gobbling up draw controls to give them those extra possessions. That plus raw talent helped keep them in games. Recruiting has completely dried out as well. Concern level 8/10

2. Stanford: You can argue that at various points in the past 10-15 years or so, Stanford had a top 5 roster in terms of talent. In that time period, they have had 11 first round exits and 2 second round appearances where they lost. Safe to say they are the most underachieving team in the sport. For awhile recruits bought the vision of Stanford being a lacrosse powerhouse in sunny California. Poor coaching has killed the dream. They lost one of their greatest players ever in Ashley Humphrey player after 2 years. Recruiting will remain decent enough to be competitive, but the hill gets steeper when they arrive in the ACC. The dream of being a powerhouse is all but dead. Concern level: 6/10

3. Florida: No new program arrived on the scene with a bang like Florida did, more so than even Clemson. Their inaugural recruiting class was ranked number 1 in the country, followed by successive years with top 10 classes. They were ranked #2 nationally in 2012, 2 years after their inaugural season when they defeated the then #1 NU wildcats. Florida probably did the most with their talent compared to Duke and Stanford but even by those standards, it's not much. They've had some really strong teams that would go toe to toe with UNC and MD but for whatever reason they could never get it done in the postseason, no matter where they were ranked. Like Stanford, they too had big ambitions but perhaps they got too good too fast and the program isn't as shiny as it once was. As the sport continues to grow and more programs are added, it eats into the recruiting pool. I'm not sure what Florida's future holds. Concern Level: 5/10

[Dr. Tact]

We've had topics about programs on the rise. Now that most teams have played a few games, i've decided to start a topic to discuss perennial top 25 teams that seem to be falling by the wayside and gauge people's levels of concern for these programs. Feel free to include programs not listed here. I'll start.

1. Duke: The blue devils are in serious trouble. They are noticeably worse than they were last year. Katie DeSimone, who is a great player no one talks about, has stuck it out for the blue devils and will be gone after this year. There is no one else behind her who is remotely close to shouldering her level of production or impact. Past few years Duke relied heavily on Maddie Jenner gobbling up draw controls to give them those extra possessions. That plus raw talent helped keep them in games. Recruiting has completely dried out as well. Concern level 8/10

2. Stanford: You can argue that at various points in the past 10-15 years or so, Stanford had a top 5 roster in terms of talent. In that time period, they have had 11 first round exits and 2 second round appearances where they lost. Safe to say they are the most underachieving team in the sport. For awhile recruits bought the vision of Stanford being a lacrosse powerhouse in sunny California. Poor coaching has killed the dream. They lost one of their greatest players ever in Ashley Humphrey player after 2 years. Recruiting will remain decent enough to be competitive, but the hill gets steeper when they arrive in the ACC. The dream of being a powerhouse is all but dead. Concern level: 6/10

3. Florida: No new program arrived on the scene with a bang like Florida did, more so than even Clemson. Their inaugural recruiting class was ranked number 1 in the country, followed by successive years with top 10 classes. They were ranked #2 nationally in 2012, 2 years after their inaugural season when they defeated the then #1 NU wildcats. Florida probably did the most with their talent compared to Duke and Stanford but even by those standards, it's not much. They've had some really strong teams that would go toe to toe with UNC and MD but for whatever reason they could never get it done in the postseason, no matter where they were ranked. Like Stanford, they too had big ambitions but perhaps they got too good too fast and the program isn't as shiny as it once was. As the sport continues to grow and more programs are added, it eats into the recruiting pool. I'm not sure what Florida's future holds. Concern Level: 5/10

Georgetown, Penn State, UVA come to my mind

[watcherinthewoods]

Hoyas = Bottomed out 10 years ago and still there
PSU = Yep
UVA = On the way back up ... lotsa youngsters making contributions, a breath of fresh air at HC, and THE GROUNDS. They will be back in the top 10 in 2026.

[laxfan9999]

The common thing with those programs on the decline- Duke, Stanford, Florida, Penn State, Georgetown- is they all would benefit from a coaching change.I agree that the coaching change has given Virginia a shot of energy. They also have benefited from a good first year goalie. The weird thing is Florida and Penn State have pulled in decent recruiting classes but have slipped each year. Stanford and Duke go for the name recruits and maybe not the best fit. Georgetown has fallen off with their recruiting classes over the last few years.

[laxfan9999]

You would have to include Louisville on the team on the decline list except they haven’t been good for a long time if at all. They don’t have a lot of talent or coaching.

[NattyBohChamps04]

You would have to include Louisville on the team on the decline list except they haven’t been good for a long time if at all. They don’t have a lot of talent or coaching.

They won the Big East in 2014 and were in the top 20 for like 4 years in a row and top 10 for one of those. Then there was the coaching mess and transfer of a bunch of players around 2017. They also had the basketball scandal and AD stuff at the same time hurting the school name.

But that was 6 seasons ago, time enough to rebuild. Only one winning season since 2018, which was a shortened COVID season were they didn't play most of the ACC games. Just 4 ACC wins since 2018. And they just lost to 2nd year in D1 Lindenwood.

I think they had the first women's lacrosse-only stadium in the country. That seat's gotta be getting hot.

[jff97]

You would have to include Louisville on the team on the decline list except they haven’t been good for a long time if at all. They don’t have a lot of talent or coaching.

They won the Big East in 2014 and were in the top 20 for like 4 years in a row and top 10 for one of those. Then there was the coaching mess and transfer of a bunch of players around 2017. They also had the basketball scandal and AD stuff at the same time hurting the school name.

But that was 6 seasons ago, time enough to rebuild. Only one winning season since 2018, which was a shortened COVID season were they didn't play most of the ACC games. Just 4 ACC wins since 2018. And they just lost to 2nd year in D1 Lindenwood.

I think they had the first women's lacrosse-only stadium in the country. That seat's gotta be getting hot.

Women's lacrosse probably not the priority there at the moment as they're set to hire a new basketball coach after Kenny Payne is let go at the end of this year. What a disaster that's been.

[laxdadpat]

What is PSU doing? Watched Colorado beat them Friday. O'Neil barely touched the ball in a close game, I hope she is healthy. Their ranking is probably due to the talent on the team, not the poor coaching. That is a prime job if I'm a coach on the rise to make a great program.

[EasyRider]

Speaking on Georgetown, specifically. There are a few details I'd rather not express publicly, but in short it has long felt to me that they have a scripted and very rigid offense ... "your job is to throw it X on this play, do not deviate" kind of thing. Players go there because it's an incredible school, but to an outsider (me) it doesn't exactly feel like they love playing there.

The game (especially offense) is trending towards flowing, organic sets ... pairs, two/three-woman game ... creativity based on concepts, not set plays. It takes time to build, but once you've laid the groundwork the players love the style and it becomes a challenge to scout / prepare against. Players look forward to practice, instead of dreading it...

[LaxThoughts]

You would have to include Louisville on the team on the decline list except they haven’t been good for a long time if at all. They don’t have a lot of talent or coaching.

They won the Big East in 2014 and were in the top 20 for like 4 years in a row and top 10 for one of those. Then there was the coaching mess and transfer of a bunch of players around 2017. They also had the basketball scandal and AD stuff at the same time hurting the school name.

But that was 6 seasons ago, time enough to rebuild. Only one winning season since 2018, which was a shortened COVID season were they didn't play most of the ACC games. Just 4 ACC wins since 2018. And they just lost to 2nd year in D1 Lindenwood.

I think they had the first women's lacrosse-only stadium in the country. That seat's gotta be getting hot.

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

[laxfan9999]

Just think how bad Louisville would be without the two sisters that fell into their lap from Japan. Watching the game yesterday vs Lindenwood, their offense was to give it to those two for the most part and let them create. It looked like Lindenwood was the more skilled team.

[NattyBohChamps04]

You would have to include Louisville on the team on the decline list except they haven’t been good for a long time if at all. They don’t have a lot of talent or coaching.

They won the Big East in 2014 and were in the top 20 for like 4 years in a row and top 10 for one of those. Then there was the coaching mess and transfer of a bunch of players around 2017. They also had the basketball scandal and AD stuff at the same time hurting the school name.

But that was 6 seasons ago, time enough to rebuild. Only one winning season since 2018, which was a shortened COVID season were they didn't play most of the ACC games. Just 4 ACC wins since 2018. And they just lost to 2nd year in D1 Lindenwood.

I think they had the first women's lacrosse-only stadium in the country. That seat's gotta be getting hot.

Women's lacrosse probably not the priority there at the moment as they're set to hire a new basketball coach after Kenny Payne is let go at the end of this year. What a disaster that's been.

Eh, they can walk and chew gum. Volleyball, field hockey, swimming, field hockey and basketball have been top 10 programs in recent years. They definitely put a lot of money into athletics around the time they joined the ACC.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

[LaxThoughts]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

Has much less (or no) idea how to relate to 18-23 year-old women.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

Has much less (or no) idea how to relate to 18-23 year-old women.

I'm not sure that's relevant as a general statement. Gary Gait had a lot of success with Syracuse. How many years did he coach the Orangewomen?

[EasyRider]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

Has much less (or no) idea how to relate to 18-23 year-old women.

Relatability is always interesting. The previous Louisville coach was female, and she had a team mutiny...

[NattyBohChamps04]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

Has much less (or no) idea how to relate to 18-23 year-old women.

Eh, Louisville's male women's basketball coach has taken them to the NCAA tournament 14 out of 15 times, including like eight elite eight or better appearances, four final fours and two national championship appearances. Good coaches are gonna be good coaches, regardless of gender.

It would be nice if more women were willing or able to return to the game as coaches and refs though. Nice to see more women coaching on the men's side too. It's still rare, but at least it's increasing.

[LaxThoughts]

Yes, Kellie Young -- for all her foibles -- built the program from scratch to a #5 ranking. She could identify, recruit, and coach talent. Her dismissal may well have been warranted, but Louisville has way too much to offer to be stuck in this downward spiral under Scott Teeter. The facilities are terrific, the school treats its athletes well and prioritizes them, they play in the ACC, and the city has much to offer outside of school. After famously letting it slip a year or two into his tenure that the program will turn around once "his recruits" come on board, Teeter has utterly failed. Many bad losses, virtually no upset wins, and constant underachievement. The tired refrain about his coaching abilities has proven false. It also is no accident that he is the only male ACC women's lacrosse coach. It is well past time for a change.

Curious what him being male has to do with anything?

Has much less (or no) idea how to relate to 18-23 year-old women.

I'm not sure that's relevant as a general statement. Gary Gait had a lot of success with Syracuse. How many years did he coach the Orangewomen?

It is not a general statement, but specifically in relation to him. Clearly there are many men who successfully coach college women athletes. Gary Gait is one, Geno Auriemma, the list is long.

[Relax77]

What is PSU doing? Watched Colorado beat them Friday. O'Neil barely touched the ball in a close game, I hope she is healthy. Their ranking is probably due to the talent on the team, not the poor coaching. That is a prime job if I'm a coach on the rise to make a great program.

Missy needs to go. Chases off every assistant she has in a year or two and it’s not like they are leaving for better programs. Another new offensive coordinator in this year that’s not allowed to implement the offense she wants to do. Van Thof will be gone on a year. Like everyone else.

[spidey44]

What is PSU doing? Watched Colorado beat them Friday. O'Neil barely touched the ball in a close game, I hope she is healthy. Their ranking is probably due to the talent on the team, not the poor coaching. That is a prime job if I'm a coach on the rise to make a great program.

Missy needs to go. Chases off every assistant she has in a year or two and it’s not like they are leaving for better programs. Another new offensive coordinator in this year that’s not allowed to implement the offense she wants to do. Van Thof will be gone on a year. Like everyone else.

I heard that she threw some past assistants under the bus to save her job...