Israel and Zionism

[cradleandshoot]

However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.

I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.

Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.

Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.

The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?

Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?

And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?

I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.

An imperfect analogy on my part. I’m not “selling” anything. No quid pro quo.

Hamas is holding hostages. All Gazans are not Hamas.

All Hamas are using Gazans as human shields

DEPLORABLE!!!!

[jhu72]

However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.

I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.

Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.

Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.

The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?

Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?

And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?

I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.

... well NetanYAHOO made it clear this week that the families of the hostages were helping out Hamas by complaining and constantly protesting they want the hostages freed NOW. He considers the hostage families part of the problem. They are keeping him from doing what he wants to do. I am sure that is scoring big points for him at home. I think this makes it pretty clear how NetanYAHOO feels and thinks about the hostages.

Saw an interesting story yesterday about peace and healing in Bosnia between Jews and Muslims, their joint celebration of the Jewish Holocaust Remembrance this year. The two sides killed something like 8000 of each other during the war. The joint message in speeches was "we are both outsiders, we are both minorities, we are both discriminated against, we need each other, we must stick together."

[a fan]

However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.

I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.

Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.

Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.

The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?

Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?

And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?

I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.

An imperfect analogy on my part. I’m not “selling” anything. No quid pro quo.

Hamas is holding hostages. All Gazans are not Hamas.

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Pizza...if you think that's true, then the obvious corollary is: Netanyahu is not Israel..have you checked out his approval numbers. 15% last I checked. And yet we hold Israel responsible, do we not?


In other words, you can't hold Israel responsible for what Netanyahu does.

[jhu72]

An interesting opinion from a Palestinian.

[Farfromgeneva]

However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.

I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.

Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.

Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.

The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?

Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?

And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?

I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.

An imperfect analogy on my part. I’m not “selling” anything. No quid pro quo.

Hamas is holding hostages. All Gazans are not Hamas.

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Pizza...if you think that's true, then the obvious corollary is: Netanyahu is not Israel..have you checked out his approval numbers. 15% last I checked. And yet we hold Israel responsible, do we not?


In other words, you can't hold Israel responsible for what Netanyahu does.

I think if one cohort were to eradicate another that the people would absolutely be response regardless of context.

[cradleandshoot]

The solution to the mess in Gaza is as plain as the nose on your face. Let Iran be in charge of security in Gaza.
All in favor raise your hand...

[dislaxxic]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear.

Israel has jailed or killed most "moderate" Palestinians and continues to marginalize (or worse) other potentially viable "partners" in two-state negotiations. Marwan Barghouti is one such potential actor. There are others.

I mean look, the Israelis are not stupid, clearly. The isolation of Gaza...the world's largest open-air prison...not allowing an economy there, nothing to allow the Palestinians to thrive as an independent entity, makes it pretty darn hard for ANY governing body to provide much of ANYTHING to a constituency beyond basic survival. The group governing (administering) in the West Bank has ZERO power over any of the numerous and still-growing settlements there, again, killing HOPE in the womb.

Pizza...if you think that's true, then the obvious corollary is: Netanyahu is not Israel..have you checked out his approval numbers. 15% last I checked. And yet we hold Israel responsible, do we not?

In other words, you can't hold Israel responsible for what Netanyahu does.

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

Is that C&S i hear burping "BUT, THEY ARE!" ??

The right, Yahoo and the rest, have been setting this narrative for decades (yes, aided by the desperate explosions of violence we have seen along the way). Intifadas are in your face. October 7th explodes in our consciousness. Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists". When things quiet down, more settlements are bulit. Fewer water facilities are rebuilt, fewer hospitals operate, less economic opportunity then EVER exists, and the misery resumes.

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

..

[cradleandshoot]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear.

Israel has jailed or killed most "moderate" Palestinians and continues to marginalize (or worse) other potentially viable "partners" in two-state negotiations. Marwan Barghouti is one such potential actor. There are others.

I mean look, the Israelis are not stupid, clearly. The isolation of Gaza...the world's largest open-air prison...not allowing an economy there, nothing to allow the Palestinians to thrive as an independent entity, makes it pretty darn hard for ANY governing body to provide much of ANYTHING to a constituency beyond basic survival. The group governing (administering) in the West Bank has ZERO power over any of the numerous and still-growing settlements there, again, killing HOPE in the womb.

Pizza...if you think that's true, then the obvious corollary is: Netanyahu is not Israel..have you checked out his approval numbers. 15% last I checked. And yet we hold Israel responsible, do we not?

In other words, you can't hold Israel responsible for what Netanyahu does.

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

Is that C&S i hear burping "BUT, THEY ARE!" ??

The right, Yahoo and the rest, have been setting this narrative for decades (yes, aided by the desperate explosions of violence we have seen along the way). Intifadas are in your face. October 7th explodes in our consciousness. Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists". When things quiet down, more settlements are bulit. Fewer water facilities are rebuilt, fewer hospitals operate, less economic opportunity then EVER exists, and the misery resumes.

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

..

Your so consistently inconsistent Dis. I thought putting Iran in charge of security in Gaza might give you an erection.

[a fan]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis.

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

[Kismet]

In case you missed this - Arab officials held secret meeting to discuss plans for post-war Gaza in Riyadh - Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/29/israel ... ne-meeting

Of course, if this were to occur, Bibi (and his government) would have to go

[cradleandshoot]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis.

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

That is what the Marshall plan was all about. You blow it all to hell than pay to rebuild it all over again.

[dislaxxic]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis. The "clear" part is: there has not been an election in Gaza since 2006...

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

All i'm saying is that there has not been an actual election in Gaza for 18 years. Underlying point is that many Gazans don't really have a sense of who is "leading" them beyond what they see in their day-to-day lives...healthcare (such as it is), municipal services and such (as they are...)

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

Totally agree, and hits what i said, bolded, above. I think the idea that Hamas is the only current answer has "left the barn"...huge issue is: "who now"??

[Seacoaster(1)]

No, that wasn't what "the Marshall Plan was all about."

[cradleandshoot]

No, that wasn't what "the Marshall Plan was all about."

That was one part of 4. You can also include preventing the spread of communism. So you think all of those bombed out cities were going to rebuild themselves all on their own?

[a fan]

"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...

Yeah, I wasn't very clear there, was I? I understand all of the above....total mess, and the WORST thing Netanyahu could do, imho.

My point was that BEFORE they "handed over Gaza" and made living in Gaza horrible.....the Palestinians hit Israel with terrorism. Cafe bombings, etc.

So you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. That happened for DECADES before Gaza was handed over and turned it into what some are calling "an open air prison". In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.

[PizzaSnake]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis. The "clear" part is: there has not been an election in Gaza since 2006...

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

All i'm saying is that there has not been an actual election in Gaza for 18 years. Underlying point is that many Gazans don't really have a sense of who is "leading" them beyond what they see in their day-to-day lives...healthcare (such as it is), municipal services and such (as they are...)

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

Totally agree, and hits what i said, bolded, above. I think the idea that Hamas is the only current answer has "left the barn"...huge issue is: "who now"??

Unless there is universal suffrage starting from birth (which I strongly doubt), there is a very, very good chance that the majority of deaths and injuries are occurring among people who COULD NOT have chosen (elected Hamas).

[jhu72]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis.

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

... pro Palestinian protests are being banned / outlawed all over the US!!

[jhu72]

No, that wasn't what "the Marshall Plan was all about."

.... thank you! The Marshall Plan said nothing about "blowing the hell" out of anything. It was a simple plan, rebuild Europe so as to rebuild the economy and break the cycle of poverty always brought about by war and imposed on the losers. Don't continue the war's destruction by imposing economic retribution on the losers. Don't continue the mistake of WW1. The "blowing the hell" out of everything was a pre - existing condition.

[a fan]

How does this make sense? They voted them in.

Yes, they voted them in what? 18 years ago. There have been no elections since then so ask yourself...did Gazans really vote for THIS Hamas? The answer is pretty clear

It's not clear to me at all, Dis. The "clear" part is: there has not been an election in Gaza since 2006...

Where are the protests of Hamas? Where Arab or Western Nations say: enough of Hamas, Palestine needs new leadership. I haven't seen that ANYWHERE....so where are you getting "pretty clear"?

All i'm saying is that there has not been an actual election in Gaza for 18 years. Underlying point is that many Gazans don't really have a sense of who is "leading" them beyond what they see in their day-to-day lives...healthcare (such as it is), municipal services and such (as they are...)

I know you're trying to make a point, but this corollary fails because, yes, the ISRAELI elections DO happen in a very legitimate way and yes, the citizens of Israel know what is happening with settlements and an aggressive and militant posture towards what they are told constantly are a nothing but a collection of terrorist groups across the region.

But here, it IS clear: his approval rating is at 15%. That tell you that Israelis are sick of Netanyahu's sh(t, and all of the bad and stupid things he's done with Gaza. I think the forum is in general agreement on that point...well, most of us, anyway.

Desperate, goaded, hopeless people act out in the only way they can. See, like Burston says in his piece, violence, rockets, explosions happen, Israel acts mercilessly against the "terrorists"

And I'd buy that, Dis....except Israel offered peace and land REPEATEDLY before finally turning Gaza over to the Palestinians a couple decades ago. So this "they're desperate" is RECENT.

"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...

It has been said that the international community could assist in standing up a "partner" to enter negotiations on the two-state solution. How do you think Yahoo would react to such a thing?

I think he needs to be removed for any chance of restarting a two State solution. But: who negotiates for Palestinians, Dis? The current answer is "Hamas". Bit of a problem, no?

I told you my solution: put UN troops in charge of Gaza, and pump money in, making it an economic hub for great jobs. Or, as has been suggested, a coalition of Western States and Arab States. That works for me, too. But then, I'm not Israel or Palestine, so ......

Totally agree, and hits what i said, bolded, above. I think the idea that Hamas is the only current answer has "left the barn"...huge issue is: "who now"??

Unless there is universal suffrage starting from birth (which I strongly doubt), there is a very, very good chance that the majority of deaths and injuries are occurring among people who COULD NOT have chosen (elected Hamas).

Fair point. But the question remains: if Hamas isn't in charge....who is?

[dislaxxic]

So you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.

Settlements.

Look, i am BY NO MEANS attempting to absolve the Palestinians of responsibility for the depths to which this relationship has sunk...

To further the analogy someone else started up-thread...Israel is "big" because of the US. Palestine is "little" because of the US, and because of other Arab nation's bad...or lack of...sensible judgement on the issue.

Given the status of current relations between Israel and the United Nations...what are the chances, with Yahoo at the helm in particular...that the UN Peacekeepers avenue to a solution has any chance of success?

..