Sensible Gun Safety

[MDlaxfan76]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

Do you also "get" that "you guys" don't want to REALLY enforce the laws that are on the books, take a harder stance, OR increase penalties for illegal activity, use, ownership and transfer?

Great; shootings will continue unfettered in every home and community around the country. Terrific.

+1

The revolving door only perpetuates bad behavior and continued missed opportunities to treat mental health.

ahhh, you guys are saying that the lefties ("you guys") don't want to selectively enforce laws against their 'constituents' (people of color) or support increasing penalties, selectively.

I didn't understand that upon first reading.

I added the "selectively", which is what is happening there, IMO.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but if the enforcement was across all constituencies, I think there would be great enthusiasm. Again, this is a 70+% issue.

[kramerica.inc]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

[ggait]

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Such completely disingenuous gaslight whataboutism bull shirt. GMAFB.

We have three serious gun violence problems in our country: (i) urban shooitngs (often gang related), (ii) suicides and (iii) angry white dudes going postal. They each require different approaches. Duh.

(iii) is the easiest to solve by far. Get rid of the forking AR 15s. Which is what our peer nations have done -- UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, EU. And even we used to be smart enough to ban them too -- as supported by lots of normie Republicans including Ronald Reagan.

And then we got hijacked by the toxic NRA and the awful GOP right wing leadership.

[youthathletics]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Great post...would certainly be interested in ggait and seacoasters take. Wonder if afan would want all the democrats in MD to pull their voter registration with the democratic party.

[ggait]

Stupid forking post.

Urban shootings in Baltimore and an ar 15 shooting up a school church or bowling alley are very different problems.

And the ar problem is so easy to solve. Get rid of the ars!

You guys really love your ars so much that you are ok with the recurring slaughters? You know, guys, a generic viagra prescription would be a lot cheaper and safer way to get the same effect.

[Seacoaster(1)]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

Do you also "get" that "you guys" don't want to REALLY enforce the laws that are on the books, take a harder stance, OR increase penalties for illegal activity, use, ownership and transfer?

Great; shootings will continue unfettered in every home and community around the country. Terrific.

can't speak for seacoaster, but I imagine he agrees that the right wing doesn't want to enforce existing law against themselves and the lobbyists who fund their campaigns. Nor tougher laws, even the most reasonable such.

This is a 70+% issue in America, yet the 30% have the reins.

Yup; thanks. It's just exhausting talking about an issue that, even if not solved, could be mitigated, with a little action by the political class -- and know it won't be. I think this little axiom is right: Once nothing happened after Sandy Hook, and we accepted the murders of kindergarteners by mentally ill people with assault weapons, nothing was ever going to happen.

[MDlaxfan76]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

[Kismet]

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Such completely disingenuous gaslight whataboutism bull shirt. GMAFB.

We have three serious gun violence problems in our country: (i) urban shooitngs (often gang related), (ii) suicides and (iii) angry white dudes going postal. They each require different approaches. Duh.

(iii) is the easiest to solve by far. Get rid of the forking AR 15s. Which is what our peer nations have done -- UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, EU. And even we used to be smart enough to ban them too -- as supported by lots of normie Republicans including Ronald Reagan.

And then we got hijacked by the toxic NRA and the awful GOP right wing leadership.

Given the number of firearms already out there banning future purchases, while helpful does not make a dent in the problem. Even if coupled with a kind of voluntary surrender.

Perhaps a better solution is to limit the ammunition supply for these particular weapons as, I believe it is unique to these kinds of AR-type weapons.

Incredible to me that Sen. Collins mentioned the Congress could not even pass a bump stock ban. In the 1930s The Roosevelt administration passed a ban on machine guns which remains in effect to this day. A bump stock essentially makes a weapon a machine gun.

[DMac]

Once nothing happened after Sandy Hook, and we accepted the murders of kindergarteners by mentally ill people with assault weapons, nothing was ever going to happen.

Something did happen, we got 3 million more guns circulated out into the armed militia.

Sandy Hook Mass Shooting Led to 3 Million Extra Gun Sales and Spike in Firearms Deaths, Researchers Say
Dec 08, 2017 at 6:15 AM EST

https://www.newsweek.com/sandy-hook-mas ... ths-741965
Any excuse will do to sell more guns, mass shooting, pandemic, any politician suggesting gun regulation, on and on.
Ultimately what we get for answers/solutions is thoughts and prayers for families and communities followed by all kinds of reasons we need 400,000,000 guns in circulation. 2A and the militia, ya know.

[youthathletics]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

I think you have grossly over complicated the discussion by inserting race, unless I am misunderstanding you. If you commit a crime with a gun...go to jail, full stop. Who cares what color you are.

[MDlaxfan76]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

I think you have grossly over complicated the discussion by inserting race, unless I am misunderstanding you. If you commit a crime with a gun...go to jail, full stop. Who cares what color you are.

I believe it was YOU who posted articles about the opposition to the change in sentencing requirements. That opposition, as YOU posted, was about racial composition in mass incarceration.

There's some legitimacy to those concerns, which IMO deserve some explication...but the bottomline is the States Attorney and Governor achieved the change over such objections. I didn't mention their race, but they both happen to be black. As is Rep Mfume who represents a big portion of Baltimore.

They're Dems.

Of course you and I (and those who are especially focused on concerns about race) want race-blind justice, including in the treatment of gun crimes. Seems obvious, right?

But that doesn't mean there isn't racial disparity in treatment of the same gun crime committed.

Gotta dig in to see what portion of that disparity is reasonable, and what portion is due to racism. And address appropriately, right?

[youthathletics]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

I think you have grossly over complicated the discussion by inserting race, unless I am misunderstanding you. If you commit a crime with a gun...go to jail, full stop. Who cares what color you are.

I believe it was YOU who posted articles about the opposition to the change in sentencing requirements. That opposition, as YOU posted, was about racial composition in mass incarceration.

There's some legitimacy to those concerns, which IMO deserve some explication...but the bottomline is the States Attorney and Governor achieved the change over such objections. I didn't mention their race, but they both happen to be black. As is Rep Mfume who represents a big portion of Baltimore.

They're Dems.

Of course you and I (and those who are especially focused on concerns about race) want race-blind justice, including in the treatment of gun crimes. Seems obvious, right?

But that doesn't mean there isn't racial disparity in treatment of the same gun crime committed.

Gotta dig in to see what portion of that disparity is reasonable, and what portion is due to racism. And address appropriately, right?

Hmmmm.....not sure if you have me confused with someone else.

NOt following you. The argument is rally simple....if caught with gun in a crimeor carrying an illegal gun, got to jail, no exceptions. If it happens to be 20% or 80% black, white, red....why does color matter if the goal is Gun Law Enforcement?

[cradleandshoot]

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Such completely disingenuous gaslight whataboutism bull shirt. GMAFB.

We have three serious gun violence problems in our country: (i) urban shooitngs (often gang related), (ii) suicides and (iii) angry white dudes going postal. They each require different approaches. Duh.

(iii) is the easiest to solve by far. Get rid of the forking AR 15s. Which is what our peer nations have done -- UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, EU. And even we used to be smart enough to ban them too -- as supported by lots of normie Republicans including Ronald Reagan.

And then we got hijacked by the toxic NRA and the awful GOP right wing leadership.

No disingenuous anything here. What is your plan counselor dumbass to eradicate ILLEGAL WEAPONS??? Do you even know or understand what an illegal weapon is? Do you even care???

[MDlaxfan76]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

I think you have grossly over complicated the discussion by inserting race, unless I am misunderstanding you. If you commit a crime with a gun...go to jail, full stop. Who cares what color you are.

I believe it was YOU who posted articles about the opposition to the change in sentencing requirements. That opposition, as YOU posted, was about racial composition in mass incarceration.

There's some legitimacy to those concerns, which IMO deserve some explication...but the bottomline is the States Attorney and Governor achieved the change over such objections. I didn't mention their race, but they both happen to be black. As is Rep Mfume who represents a big portion of Baltimore.

They're Dems.

Of course you and I (and those who are especially focused on concerns about race) want race-blind justice, including in the treatment of gun crimes. Seems obvious, right?

But that doesn't mean there isn't racial disparity in treatment of the same gun crime committed.

Gotta dig in to see what portion of that disparity is reasonable, and what portion is due to racism. And address appropriately, right?

Hmmmm.....not sure if you have me confused with someone else.

NOt following you. The argument is rally simple....if caught with gun in a crimeor carrying an illegal gun, got to jail, no exceptions. If it happens to be 20% or 80% black, white, red....why does color matter if the goal is Gun Law Enforcement?

Yes, sorry!
That was Kram above. Not you.

You jumped in, which is obviously fine, and I thought it was a continuation of that discussion I was having.

But I did not insert race, I responded to the rationale of the objection to the law (raised by Kram)... a law which DID get passed by Dems.

As to your question, of course race should NOT matter...but it does too often in charging decisions, jury decisions, and sentencing decisions in many jurisdictions.

More importantly, the complexities of incarceration rates have both legacy biases and current biases that legitimately should be understood and addressed.

Which does not obviate the 'law and order' needs to protect citizens from violent crimes! Gun laws and enforcement are a big piece, but not the sole piece, of that effort.

[MDlaxfan76]

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Such completely disingenuous gaslight whataboutism bull shirt. GMAFB.

We have three serious gun violence problems in our country: (i) urban shooitngs (often gang related), (ii) suicides and (iii) angry white dudes going postal. They each require different approaches. Duh.

(iii) is the easiest to solve by far. Get rid of the forking AR 15s. Which is what our peer nations have done -- UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, EU. And even we used to be smart enough to ban them too -- as supported by lots of normie Republicans including Ronald Reagan.

And then we got hijacked by the toxic NRA and the awful GOP right wing leadership.

No disingenuous anything here. What is your plan counselor dumbass to eradicate ILLEGAL WEAPONS??? Do you even know or understand what an illegal weapon is? Do you even care???

Why don't you explain to us dummies what an "illegal weapon" is, and how it got into the hands of a criminal.

I'm interested in learning what you think us dummies don't understand.

BTW, if I buy an AR-15 following all the rules, and then go out and commit mass murder with it, is it now a 'legal weapon' or an 'illegal weapon' ? Still "legal" right? Or did it become illegal when I committed a crime? or only when I'm convicted of the crime? Or is still "legal" and I just have to sell it at say, a gun show? or give it to my kid?

How about I bought it 10 years ago and then my son took it out and committed mass murder? Is that a 'legal weapon' or an 'illegal' one?

Ok, how about I sold it to a guy at gun show and he goes out and commits mass murder...was that an 'illegal' weapon before it was used that way? Or after?

Or how about the weapon was stolen by someone working at my house...is that now an 'illegal weapon'? Was it "illegal" before it was stolen?

How about a gun manufacturer sells a big shipment of weapons to someone who is an authorized gun dealer, but he sells them in bulk to a guy who then goes to a gun show and sells them to any tom, dick or harry? Legal or illegal?

How about the authorized gun dealer sells them to a representative of a gang...but the individual does all the right paperwork? And he then turns and provides the guns to his gang? Legal or illegal?

Does it matter if the gun manufacturer or dealer had a hunch the guns were going into the gun show market or elsewhere? should they have to care?

[kramerica.inc]

Stupid forking post.

Urban shootings in Baltimore and an ar 15 shooting up a school church or bowling alley are very different problems.

And the ar problem is so easy to solve. Get rid of the ars!

You guys really love your ars so much that you are ok with the recurring slaughters? You know, guys, a generic viagra prescription would be a lot cheaper and safer way to get the same effect.

I didn't realize ARs were just a suburban shooting problem.

???

I think they are very similar, if not the same problem.

I've said multiple times, all the gun owners I know are generally willing to jump through all the hoops to attain legal ARs and handguns. They also are happy to support laws that throw the book at people who commit illegal transfers/use etc.

When is "your" group gonna do the same to target and prosecute those tiny handguns that aren't a problem, but somehow account for thousands of urban (and suburban) shootings/suicides each year?

Still waiting for the hand wringing and strong desire to fix that problem. Let me know your solution. I'm all ears!

[MDlaxfan76]

Stupid forking post.

Urban shootings in Baltimore and an ar 15 shooting up a school church or bowling alley are very different problems.

And the ar problem is so easy to solve. Get rid of the ars!

You guys really love your ars so much that you are ok with the recurring slaughters? You know, guys, a generic viagra prescription would be a lot cheaper and safer way to get the same effect.

I didn't realize ARs were just a suburban shooting problem.

???

I've said multiple times, all the gun owners I know are generally willing to jump through all the hoops to attain legal ARs. They also are happy to support laws that throw the book at people who commit illegal transfers/use etc.

When is "your" group gonna do the same to prosecute those tiny handguns that aren't a problem, but somehow account for thousands of urban (and suburban) shootings each year?

Still waiting for the hand wringing and strong desire to fix that problem. Let me know your solution. I'm all ears!

Whoa, did you not read my response above to your comments about Baltimore and Maryland sentencing laws?

Is that not a good policy by Dems? Why aren't you acknowledging that?

That's including those "tiny handguns", right?

And why are you differentiating between suburban and urban? ggait did not, other than to respond to cradle's fixation on urban, and then your mention of Baltimore.

He Was differentiating between turf war violence, typically associated with drug trade, (which can be urban, small town, or rural...though most often urban), and using an assault weapon to kill as many people as fast as possible, whether for 'sport' or ideology. The latter is happening wherever people congregate, as that's the whole point, kill as many people as fast as possible. Usually indiscriminately, unless targeted by some bigotry. And even then, any target of opportunity.

[cradleandshoot]

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Such completely disingenuous gaslight whataboutism bull shirt. GMAFB.

We have three serious gun violence problems in our country: (i) urban shooitngs (often gang related), (ii) suicides and (iii) angry white dudes going postal. They each require different approaches. Duh.

(iii) is the easiest to solve by far. Get rid of the forking AR 15s. Which is what our peer nations have done -- UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, EU. And even we used to be smart enough to ban them too -- as supported by lots of normie Republicans including Ronald Reagan.

And then we got hijacked by the toxic NRA and the awful GOP right wing leadership.

No disingenuous anything here. What is your plan counselor dumbass to eradicate ILLEGAL WEAPONS??? Do you even know or understand what an illegal weapon is? Do you even care???

Why don't you explain to us dummies what an "illegal weapon" is, and how it got into the hands of a criminal.

I'm interested in learning what you think us dummies don't understand.

BTW, if I buy an AR-15 following all the rules, and then go out and commit mass murder with it, is it now a 'legal weapon' or an 'illegal weapon' ? Still "legal" right? Or did it become illegal when I committed a crime? or only when I'm convicted of the crime? Or is still "legal" and I just have to sell it at say, a gun show? or give it to my kid?

How about I bought it 10 years ago and then my son took it out and committed mass murder? Is that a 'legal weapon' or an 'illegal' one?

Ok, how about I sold it to a guy at gun show and he goes out and commits mass murder...was that an 'illegal' weapon before it was used that way? Or after?

Or how about the weapon was stolen by someone working at my house...is that now an 'illegal weapon'? Was it "illegal" before it was stolen?

How about a gun manufacturer sells a big shipment of weapons to someone who is an authorized gun dealer, but he sells them in bulk to a guy who then goes to a gun show and sells them to any tom, dick or harry? Legal or illegal?

How about the authorized gun dealer sells them to a representative of a gang...but the individual does all the right paperwork? And he then turns and provides the guns to his gang? Legal or illegal?

Does it matter if the gun manufacturer or dealer had a hunch the guns were going into the gun show market or elsewhere? should they have to care?

An illegal weapon means the person in possession of that weapon came across possession of weapon in violation of local, state and federal law. That definition can vary greatly from state to state. I'm glad I could straiten that out for you. Dumbasses like you are the best friends ignorant people can ever have. Your a 12 gauge shotgun duck guy. You ever heard of a trench duster?? You should then be able to comprehend the devastation a 12 gauge with double aught buckshot can unleash in a few seconds. The 12 gauge pump shotgun was a favorite of many GIs who were engaged in close quarters combat. Accuracy was not as important as putting lethal firepower at the bad guys. 5.56 can't do what a 12 gauge can do in a narrow field of engagement. There is a good damn reason the 12 gauge was a good friend of any infantry soldier. FTR MD, and please check me if you think I'm wrong, the Germans in WW1 protested loudly about the British use of " trench duster" shotguns. I'm surprised a shotgun aficionado such as yourself is unaware how devastating the 12 gauge was and still is when it comes to killing alot of people very quickly.

[ggait]

I didn't realize ARs were just a suburban shooting problem.

Come on -- even you are not this forking stupid. You're just a stubborn gaslighting bull shirter.

Las Vegas country music festival
Orlando Pulse nightclub
Virginia Tech
Sandy Hook CT
Sutherland SPrings, TX
El Paso Walmart
Uvalde TX
Lewiston Maine
Parkland FL high school
Aurora, CO -- multi plex movie theater.
Boulder, CO -- King Soopers grocery store.
Columbine, CO -- suburban HS.
Buffalo NY

None of these are inner city incidents obviously. Schools, malls, theaters, churches, grocery stores, bowling allies. All non-urban gathering places with big parking lots.

Come on you forking idiot. Gang bangers in the inner city do not shoot up random people with an AR 15.

[Farfromgeneva]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

Yup.

100%

Let's take MD for example. A entirely democrat state. It should be easy to fix these gun laws, right? Baltimore alone has 3-400 murders a year. Even more shootings.

Many politicians wanted to move the mandatory minimum from 3-5 years to really deter gun crime. All agreed it was needed, works and due:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... 7VYCC6OPM/

Then suddenly, the support vanished:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/pol ... arceration

This came out the other day:

https://wjla.com/news/local/maryland-at ... rimination

For all the blame the ineffectual Republicans get, the Democrats can't get out of their own way, either.

Actually NOT an "entirely Democrat state"; we just had two terms of a Republican governor and various counties are majority R. Baltimore is overwhelmingly D and both legislatures have been controlled by the Dems for quite awhile...but often by 'conservative' Dems.

Yes now all D, but note that the new (much better!) States Attorney Ivan Bates, backed by the new Governor Wes Moore and multiple other prominent Dems, including Rep. Kweisi Mfume, and the Dem legislature passed the law last spring.

Note also that homicides are down 25% year over year in Baltimore.

Is there a huge disparity in racial composition of incarceration in Maryland? Yes. Way out of proportion to actual crime commission.

https://msccsp.org/Files/Reports/Senten ... ly2023.pdf

A big portion of the difference in current sentencing is because of prior histories being typically greater for black and hispanic perps than white perps. Not necessarily for similar crimes, but aggregate more...which triggers longer sentences being mandatory. On it's face, that seems legitimate, though it's not quite that simple as what those priors were and how they were treated in charging decisions is a factor.

There's a lot of prior legacy of differential sentencing by race for same crime, same priors, but at least this has been addressed. And differentials in how various drug possession crimes were differently charged and convicted, and sentenced...with major racial patterns.

But what it doesn't account for, even today, is the higher conviction rate by race, and the various differentials in charging decisions in different jurisdictions, by race.

Yes, racism does still exist in the criminal justice system. So, those who focus on that problem get concerned when any change seems to particularly impact their efforts to reduce differences in incarceration rates.

But gotta be fair to the Dems who are taking the "law and order" side of crime prevention seriously. They deserve support.

And yeah, there's the "justice" side of the equation that is essential as well.

And, of course, related issues of poverty, desperation, organized crime/gang violence, and the challenge of being surrounded by states with lax gun laws, easy access to acquisition, whether 'legal' or 'illegal'.

all important.

I think you have grossly over complicated the discussion by inserting race, unless I am misunderstanding you. If you commit a crime with a gun...go to jail, full stop. Who cares what color you are.

I believe it was YOU who posted articles about the opposition to the change in sentencing requirements. That opposition, as YOU posted, was about racial composition in mass incarceration.

There's some legitimacy to those concerns, which IMO deserve some explication...but the bottomline is the States Attorney and Governor achieved the change over such objections. I didn't mention their race, but they both happen to be black. As is Rep Mfume who represents a big portion of Baltimore.

They're Dems.

Of course you and I (and those who are especially focused on concerns about race) want race-blind justice, including in the treatment of gun crimes. Seems obvious, right?

But that doesn't mean there isn't racial disparity in treatment of the same gun crime committed.

Gotta dig in to see what portion of that disparity is reasonable, and what portion is due to racism. And address appropriately, right?

Hmmmm.....not sure if you have me confused with someone else.

NOt following you. The argument is rally simple....if caught with gun in a crimeor carrying an illegal gun, got to jail, no exceptions. If it happens to be 20% or 80% black, white, red....why does color matter if the goal is Gun Law Enforcement?

So it doesn’t matter if you’re letting 97% + whites with and doing illegal things using illegal guns by (like, say, the nerd hall monitor who went lethal in WI) but catching 125% of Black people with guns?

You can’t possibly think that’s irrelevant given the consequences on society. Not to mention the relationship between the police and community.

If caught is a fraction of the issue and have to deal with the how and when of the “caught” comprehensively.

Can’t slice this down the way that’s convenience to win an argument like Afan does with his responses (even if his intent is in good faith it dilutes the point)