Ron Desantis (The Desantis Doctrine)

[a fan]

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.

Yes, the employees can speak for themselves, too. But Disney didn't preclude them from doing that.

You're acting like this is the first time in our history that a business has spoken out in opposition to a bill. Is that what you think?

Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

It wasn't parents that did that. It was Ron DeSantis, OS, a Governor. Big difference.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked cradle: which parents get to decide? Do my wife and I get to call the shots at my daughter's school?

I disagree that parents should get to choose in a public school....I sure as heck don't have that power. If they want that power? Home schooling is at their disposal.

[runrussellrun]

If Florida schools weren't "grooming", why be concerened about a ban, about grooming ?

That's right. Teachers have been nefariously grooming Florida kids "to be gay" for the last 100 years. Thankfully, DeSantis showed up in 2023 after 100 or so years of "gay grooming" to put a stop to it by (drumroll) signing a bill that runrussellrun thinks "stops them from grooming".

Neat. Question: after 100 years+ of all this "gay grooming" in Florida schools, how come Florida isn't like 90% gay? Did the "grooming not take hold"? What do your TInFoil buds tell you? Ask them.

They're on top of this stuff, surely...although I don't know how the F they missed 100 years of "gay grooming" before DeSantis saved us all. Oh, I know: TeamTin foil is "in on it"....THEY are the ones doing the "gay grooming". Sneaky bast*rds!!!

My question to you is: why do the other 49 States allow your "gay grooming" at public schools, and when will they pass one of DeSantis' magic laws that put an end to the grooming?


Boy. You sure can learn a lot of stuff from RRR.

afan, don't you always explain, that RonD's "don't say gay" bill is toothless.....a complete dogNpony show, just for "evangelical " crowd.

To only say, "see, I (ronD) did something about them gays ".

correct us, if we are wrong, but, pretty sure that is what you always mention. Only a few comments, ago, in fact.

How many Florida teachers have lost their jobs, b/c of ronD's law?

exactly

[a fan]

afan, don't you always explain, that RonD's "don't say gay" bill is toothless.....a complete dogNpony show, just for "evangelical " crowd.

To only say, "see, I (ronD) did something about them gays ".

correct us, if we are wrong, but, pretty sure that is what you always mention. Only a few comments, ago, in fact.

Didn't say it was toothless. I said that it doesn't do what you and others have claimed it does.

What it DOES do, is hold Teachers and school districts personally liable if they....well, the bills not sure.

How many Florida teachers have lost their jobs, b/c of ronD's law?

exactly

Want the actual problem? Here ya go: A recently released Florida Education Association survey tallied 5,294 vacancies in Florida public schools. The survey noted that five years ago, the state had only 1,492 vacancies.

Yet this report of shortages jibes with other surveys. Like a report issued last summer by Brown University's Annenberg Institute that found the teacher shortage to be more than a passing pandemic problem and that Florida had the worst shortage of any state.


So in an attempt to get votes from guys like you, DeSantis is throwing the FLA school system under the bus.

Here's a thought exercise for you or anyone else here who thinks DeSantis' law (a law none of you has read) is a good idea.

Here's a labor law expert, chiming in: "Unfortunately this bill was drafted in a way that is so loosely worded and has so many loopholes in ways that it can be perceived, that it does allow this door to be opened for lawsuits against our teachers and our school boards across the state," Gennari said.


You're a teacher: do you want to be held PERSONALLY LIABLE for a book you choose, or a word you utter in the classroom? And wind up on the national news, lose your license and your career? You're lying if you say "yes".

Gee, ya think this is part of the reason for the teacher shortage in Florida, RRR? You got this all figured out, right?

Meanwhile, DeSantis' kids are in private school, naturally, so he doesn't REALLY care about this law. It's about getting votes from the usual suspects here in a general election. Virtue signaling, as OS puts it.


https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regio ... 016e708836

https://www.news-journalonline.com/stor ... 825799007/

[RedFromMI]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

Either that or create a generation of ill-informed, easily misinformed idiots to pad their base of grievance-filled morons.

[runrussellrun]

Want the actual problem? Here ya go: A recently released Florida Education Association survey tallied 5,294 vacancies in Florida public schools. The survey noted that five years ago, the state had only 1,492 vacancies. only cause is ronD's law?

Yet this report of shortages jibes with other surveys. Like a report issued last summer by Brown University's Annenberg Institute that found the teacher shortage to be more than a passing pandemic problem and that Florida had the worst shortage of any state.


So in an attempt to get votes from guys like you, DeSantis is throwing the FLA school system under the bus.

Here's a thought exercise for you or anyone else here who thinks DeSantis' law (a law none of you has read) is a good idea.....well, good morning mr. assumption

Here's a labor law expert, chiming in: "Unfortunately this bill was drafted in a way that is so loosely worded and has so many loopholes in ways that it can be perceived, that it does allow this door to be opened for lawsuits against our teachers and our school boards across the state," Gennari said.


You're a teacher: do you want to be held PERSONALLY LIABLE for a book you choose, or a word you utter in the classroom? And wind up on the national news, lose your license and your career? You're lying if you say "yes".

Gee, ya think this is part of the reason for the teacher shortage in Florida, RRR? You got this all figured out, right?

Meanwhile, DeSantis' kids are in private school, naturally, so he doesn't REALLY care about this law. It's about getting votes from the usual suspects here in a general election. Virtue signaling, as OS puts it.


https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regio ... 016e708836

https://www.news-journalonline.com/stor ... 825799007/

not reading any solutions to the problem, whatever it may be...........none.

(teachers pay sucks, and Florida has led the suck pay in the USA for decades )

carry on.

ron D bad...... isn't a solution.

oh....and thanks for your booze help

[a fan]

not reading any solutions to the problem, whatever it may be...........none.

That's because you're on here to pick fights, and missed the evenhanded discussion folks had here a few weeks back....where we all agree that between sh*t pay, and the left and right making their jobs impossible, no one wants to teach anymore.

You do you. Keep picking fights.

And as usual, as I keep saying, you dodge all questions, and then pout when others don't answer yours.

I'll give you another chance:

You're a teacher: do you want to be held PERSONALLY LIABLE for a book you choose, or a word you utter in the classroom? And wind up on the national news, lose your license and your career?

[a fan]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

Shiny objects for the working class, with DeSantis sends his kids private, skirting all public school problems.

[Farfromgeneva]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

Still agree with the sentiment around this clown gov but I will note it’s a strategy going back to the left hoping a public option on healthcare would bleed out/destroy the system. Like the left learned to run the money game from Delay and his boys early/mid 2000s.

But doesn’t take away from my agreement here, just pointing out that it’s a tactic utilized regularly so shouldn’t be that hard to observe in this case unless folks are burying their head in the sand and just showing their a**.

[old salt]

The individual Disney employees in FL are all voters & contributors in state & local elections & politics.
They don't need their employer involved in this. Did Disney survey all their employees on this ?
It's not benefiting Disney or their employees to pick this fight. Disney had a sweetheart deal.

Disney has been telling children for almost 100 years to be kind to people who may appear to be different from you. Movie after movie. Dumbo was released in 1941, for heaven's sake. If you don't know this is Disney's brand? I don't know what to say.

As for "pick a fight", I'd call it "expressed their view". And DeSantis is trying to use his office to cancel them for doing that.

You think what DeSantis did was fine. I vehemently disagree, and don't understand why either you or Kram would think it's ok for a Governor to hit a single company for disagreeing with a policy, but here we are.

So again, agree to disagree.

We're sorted. Let's move on.

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.
Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

so, corporations aren't people too? ...for 1st Amendment...IF they express something opposed to a particular governmental action? No...If they express opposition to a right wing fascist governmental action...ahh, now they have no rights to do so, can be subject to specific governmental punishment for their speech.

You are also ridiculously wrong about whether they know what a preponderance of their employees think and want them to say on behalf of the company, the "family" they choose to be part of daily...Well run large companies pay close attention, through a variety of means, including surveys, town meetings, feedback boards, annual 360 reviews, and more...they have an excellent handle on the views of their employees and prospective employees.

Last, parents do want control, including the many, typically majority, of parents who want their kids to learn about all of US history, including the challenging parts, who want their kids and their friends and classmates to not be uncomfortable or bullied about their gender, their sexual orientation, or that of their parents. The majority of parents don't want the minority to be banning books, threatening teachers, etc.

But the minority has been organized and feels quite confident about their "control" being righteous... and they have a Governor and legislature that are eager to pander to those activists, a governor trying rather desperately to get to the hard right of the GOP front runner...

Minority ? Yes, democracy is a terrible thing. It gave all of you trapped in FL a (R) Governor & super majority state legislature.

[old salt]

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.

Yes, the employees can speak for themselves, too. But Disney didn't preclude them from doing that.

You're acting like this is the first time in our history that a business has spoken out in opposition to a bill. Is that what you think?

Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

It wasn't parents that did that. It was Ron DeSantis, OS, a Governor. Big difference.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked cradle: which parents get to decide? Do my wife and I get to call the shots at my daughter's school?

I disagree that parents should get to choose in a public school....I sure as heck don't have that power. If they want that power? Home schooling is at their disposal.

You can serve on your public school board, like my dad & father-in-law did. Join the PTA like my mom & mother-in-law did.
They did not seek the office. They were asked to volunteer their time & put their names on the ballot by the Supt.

[a fan]

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.

Yes, the employees can speak for themselves, too. But Disney didn't preclude them from doing that.

You're acting like this is the first time in our history that a business has spoken out in opposition to a bill. Is that what you think?

Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

It wasn't parents that did that. It was Ron DeSantis, OS, a Governor. Big difference.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked cradle: which parents get to decide? Do my wife and I get to call the shots at my daughter's school?

I disagree that parents should get to choose in a public school....I sure as heck don't have that power. If they want that power? Home schooling is at their disposal.

You can serve on your public school board, like my dad & father-in-law did. Join the PTA like my mom & mother-in-law did.
They did not seek the office. They were asked to volunteer their time & put their names on the ballot by the Supt.

I understand. My in laws did that. Registered Republicans back then. Know what they did? They helped the teachers get what they needed to do their jobs. That's it. And worked to see if they could do things like add AP classes. No book burning. No threatening teachers if they "say the wrong stuff". I asked them.

Here's what makes zero sense: do we have qualifications for teachers? We do, right? So why would we let someone who has no qualifications whatsoever, tell teachers what to do? What to teach, how to teach it? UNLESS it's in the much larger sense....things like placing more focus on Math. That's it. "We need you to spend more hours teaching math principles. Take your team and figure out how to do that".

Or would you like me to show up to your aircraft carrier, and start bossing people around, and to rewrite your flight procedures when I can barely use a compass? No, right? So why the F would we let untrained parents get directly involved to the point that they're picking books?

It's insane. I prefer exactly what you described in terms of your wife's career: shut up and let her do her job.

[Farfromgeneva]

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.

Yes, the employees can speak for themselves, too. But Disney didn't preclude them from doing that.

You're acting like this is the first time in our history that a business has spoken out in opposition to a bill. Is that what you think?

Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

It wasn't parents that did that. It was Ron DeSantis, OS, a Governor. Big difference.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked cradle: which parents get to decide? Do my wife and I get to call the shots at my daughter's school?

I disagree that parents should get to choose in a public school....I sure as heck don't have that power. If they want that power? Home schooling is at their disposal.

You can serve on your public school board, like my dad & father-in-law did. Join the PTA like my mom & mother-in-law did.
They did not seek the office. They were asked to volunteer their time & put their names on the ballot by the Supt.

I understand. My in laws did that. Registered Republicans back then. Know what they did? They helped the teachers get what they needed to do their jobs. That's it. And worked to see if they could do things like add AP classes. No book burning. No threatening teachers if they "say the wrong stuff". I asked them.

Here's what makes zero sense: do we have qualifications for teachers? We do, right? So why would we let someone who has no qualifications whatsoever, tell teachers what to do? What to teach, how to teach it? UNLESS it's in the much larger sense....things like placing more focus on Math. That's it. "We need you to spend more hours teaching math principles. Take your team and figure out how to do that".

Or would you like me to show up to your aircraft carrier, and start bossing people around, and to rewrite your flight procedures when I can barely use a compass? No, right? So why the F would we let untrained parents get directly involved to the point that they're picking books?

It's insane. I prefer exactly what you described in terms of your wife's career: shut up and let her do her job.

Strategic vs tactical.

Tactical is the hammer that sees nails all around it. They know they can’t win the transparent strategic case so they bush league tank the tactical.

[old salt]

Again. You fail to acknowledge my point. The Disney employees can speak for themselves, just like every other FL voter.
It's not their employer's place to speak on their behalf. How does Disney know what % of their employees agree with them.

Yes, the employees can speak for themselves, too. But Disney didn't preclude them from doing that.

You're acting like this is the first time in our history that a business has spoken out in opposition to a bill. Is that what you think?

Parents wanting control of what their kids are exposed to in school does not preclude being kind to anyone.

It wasn't parents that did that. It was Ron DeSantis, OS, a Governor. Big difference.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked cradle: which parents get to decide? Do my wife and I get to call the shots at my daughter's school?

I disagree that parents should get to choose in a public school....I sure as heck don't have that power. If they want that power? Home schooling is at their disposal.

You can serve on your public school board, like my dad & father-in-law did. Join the PTA like my mom & mother-in-law did.
They did not seek the office. They were asked to volunteer their time & put their names on the ballot by the Supt.

I understand. My in laws did that. Registered Republicans back then. Know what they did? They helped the teachers get what they needed to do their jobs. That's it. And worked to see if they could do things like add AP classes. No book burning. No threatening teachers if they "say the wrong stuff". I asked them.

Here's what makes zero sense: do we have qualifications for teachers? We do, right? So why would we let someone who has no qualifications whatsoever, tell teachers what to do? What to teach, how to teach it? UNLESS it's in the much larger sense....things like placing more focus on Math. That's it. "We need you to spend more hours teaching math principles. Take your team and figure out how to do that".

Or would you like me to show up to your aircraft carrier, and start bossing people around, and to rewrite your flight procedures when I can barely use a compass? No, right? So why the F would we let untrained parents get directly involved to the point that they're picking books?

It's insane. I prefer exactly what you described in terms of your wife's career: shut up and let her do her job.

Her job did not include this degree of social engineering. It was more subject matter focused.
She is savvy on how to avoid controversial issues, then & now.
She felt at the time, & still does, that most of her education courses, BA, MEd & required continuing education, were of marginal value & became increasingly politicized throughout her career, as teachers unions became more politically powerful.
She never joined a union but remained on good terms with her union colleagues. Never had a problem with parents either.
obtw -- her approved reading lists & curriculum included Mark Twain (unabridged). It was a useful teaching opportunity.

[a fan]

Her job did not include this degree of social engineering. It was more subject matter focused.

We've discussed this before. There was social engineering out the wazoo back then, too. You just didn't notice it because it was your values that were being "engineered". So it was taken for granted, and you didn't notice it. Did you have school dances, etc........?

She is savvy on how to avoid controversial issues, then & now.
She felt at the time, & still does, that most of her education courses, BA, MEd & required continuing education, were of marginal value & became increasingly politicized throughout her career, as teachers unions became more politically powerful.
She never joined a union but remained on good terms with her union colleagues. Never had a problem with parents either.

I've stated many times that I don't believe government workers should be allowed to unionize. But it's about dead last on the list of problems. To wit, you're bragging about the educational outcomes when your wife was teaching....and you're telling me that they had unions. And those days were the days of PEAK union power.

obtw -- her approved reading lists & curriculum included Mark Twain (unabridged). It was a useful teaching opportunity.

That's right. And guess what? Both the fringe right and the fringe left will keep works like that out of schools.

2023 Republicans would call your wife's choice an example of Critical Race Theory....."indoctrinating kids", by showing examples of what life was like in the South in Twain's time. That's a no-no.

Again: I'd rather your wife choose the reading list instead of some illiterate nutjob. 99.9% of the time, these idiots don't bother reading the book that they want burned.

When we don't talk past each other, we agree on a cr*pton of subjects.

[runrussellrun]

not reading any solutions to the problem, whatever it may be...........none.

That's because you're on here to pick fights, and missed the evenhanded discussion folks had here a few weeks back....where we all agree that between sh*t pay, and the left and right making their jobs impossible, no one wants to teach anymore.

You do you. Keep picking fights.

And as usual, as I keep saying, you dodge all questions, and then pout when others don't answer yours.

I'll give you another chance: a chance at what ?

You're a teacher:1. do you want to be held PERSONALLY LIABLE for a book you choose, or a word you utter in the classroom? afans question #2 And wind up on the national news, lose your license and your career? answer to 1. Impossible to answer, without knowing what PERSONALLY LIABLE, even means. if it means, question 2, than YES....absolutely. If I do something that warrants such measures, absolutely.

[runrussellrun]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

Shiny objects for the working class, with DeSantis sends his kids private, skirting all public school problems.

what a Debbie downer........all gloom, no solutions.

read the "education" thread, going back a few months.........same useless dance, and picking fights.....and I am no where to be found.

Imagine that.

same crap......

your version of "civil " discusssions is hilarious.

Like the F troop opening...where YOU probably think it was a deliberate charge......

....or that wolf of wall street , driving the Lambo home from the country club.

Two different realities.

I mean....for Christ sake........look at the EFFORT you put to comments, what with all your cutN pastes. And ALWAYS to the same posters.......always....

found a pretty cool case of brown liquor.......and, no, you won't be getting another chance.

C ya

[a fan]

answer to 1. Impossible to answer, without knowing what PERSONALLY LIABLE, even means.

That's right, my man. The law is poorly written according to lawyers, and any one who can read. They won't know until suits are filed.


But you are pretending to support the bill, and are pretending you think I'm nuts for thinking it's driving teachers away from Florida.

You're picking a fight to no purpose. As usual.



https://time.com/6208554/florida-lgbtq- ... ation-law/

[a fan]

what a Debbie downer........all gloom, no solutions.

Nope. Already gave solutions, my man, along with several other posters just a few weeks ago. There's a thread on education.

But you're bored, and want to fight. And are inventing reasons to fight. My advice is: go play in the street.

[runrussellrun]

Plus crippling the public schools seems to be part of the playbook here - if they are more broken, the DeSantis types can point to the problems as the reason they need their kind of “fixin”. Never mind the problems are their own creation.

Shiny objects for the working class, with DeSantis sends his kids private, skirting all public school problems.

what a Debbie downer........all gloom, no solutions.

[*][*]I read the "education" thread, going back a few months.........same useless dance, and picking fights.....and I am no where to be found. [/b]

umm.....afan.....did you NOT understand this part, in context with the following. I read THAT thread. geez.

Imagine that.

same crap......

your version of "civil " discusssions is hilarious.

Like the F troop opening...where YOU probably think it was a deliberate charge......

....or that wolf of wall street , driving the Lambo home from the country club.

Two different realities.

I mean....for Christ sake........look at the EFFORT you put to comments, what with all your cutN pastes. And ALWAYS to the same posters.......always....

found a pretty cool case of brown liquor.......and, no, you won't be getting another chance.

C ya