Two-way middies; an endangered species?

[Lax101]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

[Dr. Tact]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

[wlaxphan20]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

[watcherinthewoods]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

[Dr. Tact]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

[Dr. Tact]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[Dr. Tact]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[edit] Of course DCs dont take into account Team draw wins, just individual...

One more stat on head to head, which doesnt account for teammates' goals off DC wins...anticipating an argument here...

#1 - .08% of team goals scored
#2 - .13% of team goals scored

[Bart]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[edit] Of course DCs dont take into account Team draw wins, just individual...

Well to start they play different positions. But you really can’t answer that question without knowing how many of the 758 possession led to goals and how many of the 358 possessions led to goals.

[Dr. Tact]

Well to start they play different positions. But you really can’t answer that question without knowing how many of the 758 possession led to goals and how many of the 358 possessions led to goals.

Yes that it fairly obvious...

Their positions being different leads to more of a value for JW, IMO. She is running full field while the other player is not. You could eliminate the CTO stat from the comparison, but the value of a 2 way middie (OP) is more than a specialist who sometimes, over her career, is on the attack. I get your point on the 400 draws that could have led to points for that team, but, I'd rather have the 2 way M that is the core of a team that doesn't just win draws.

To be fair to JW, this comparison is against a generational specialist. Who is the better all around player? Who is the better player for team success? those are the questions with this comparison...

I apologize in advance. I am biased. One, I love Middies, and two, I had one who played with JW.

[edit] I am not going to say the name of he who is not spoken about, but as he championed, draw controls are not always a measure of team (nor individual) success. Give me a 2-way Middie over a Part-time FOGO/Attack every day.

[Bart]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[edit] Of course DCs dont take into account Team draw wins, just individual...

One more stat on head to head, which doesnt account for teammates' goals off DC wins...anticipating an argument here...

#1 - .08% of team goals scored
#2 - .13% of team goals scored

What do you mean head to head? Last time Doook played loyola was in 2005?
According to loyola’s website

[Dr. Tact]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[edit] Of course DCs dont take into account Team draw wins, just individual...

One more stat on head to head, which doesnt account for teammates' goals off DC wins...anticipating an argument here...

#1 - .08% of team goals scored
#2 - .13% of team goals scored

What do you mean head to head? Last time Doook played loyola was in 2005?
According to loyola’s website

Head to head comparison of two players...may have been a bad choice of words. I meant, another comparison on a specific metric.

[Bart]

Well to start they play different positions. But you really can’t answer that question without knowing how many of the 758 possession led to goals and how many of the 358 possessions led to goals.

Yes that it fairly obvious...

Their positions being different leads to more of a value for JW, IMO. She is running full field while the other player is not. You could eliminate the CTO stat from the comparison, but the value of a 2 way middie (OP) is more than a specialist who sometimes, over her career, is on the attack. I get your point on the 400 draws that could have led to points for that team, but, I'd rather have the 2 way M that is the core of a team that doesn't just win draws.

To be fair to JW, this comparison is against a generational specialist. Who is the better all around player? Who is the better player for team success? those are the questions with this comparison...

I apologize in advance. I am biased. One, I love Middies, and two, I had one who played with JW.

[edit] I am not going to say the name of he who is not spoken about, but as he championed, draw controls are not always a measure of team (nor individual) success. Give me a 2-way Middie over a Part-time FOGO/Attack every day.

Your point is well taken but within a team framework one size doesn’t fit everything.

You will not get an argument from me regarding middies.

But you did originally ask who is more valuable…..I don’t think you can answer that without crunching a whole lot of useless data

[Bart]

I agree - great effort all over the field and a leader. I just wanted to note that playing lots of minutes in games against weak opponents will inflate your stats.

yeah, I get it ...although she did tie her career high of 14 draws last night against Princeton. Not a traditional weak opponent.

And the other time she got 14 this season was against Florida

If we want to talk about stat padding on the DC, there is a certain 1st team AA that comes way before WIlson in IMHO.

very nice

two players that take the Draw (hint one is Jillian Wilson)...guess the other one? Which one is more "valuable"? Both 4+ years...

#1 - GP=79, G=104, A=15, P=119, GB = 34, TO = 70, CTO = 14, DC = 758
#2 - GP=75, G=157, A=48, P=205, GB = 99, TO = 92, CTO = 65, DC = 358

I go with #?

[edit] Of course DCs dont take into account Team draw wins, just individual...

One more stat on head to head, which doesnt account for teammates' goals off DC wins...anticipating an argument here...

#1 - .08% of team goals scored
#2 - .13% of team goals scored

What do you mean head to head? Last time Doook played loyola was in 2005?
According to loyola’s website

Head to head comparison of two players...may have been a bad choice of words. I meant, another comparison on a specific metric.

Gotcha. Thanks

[Lax101]

Here is an interesting stat. So far in 2023, Duke's draw advantage in the ACC is 3 percentage points above 500. 53% to 47%. Perhaps 1 of the reasons they are 1-6 in conference. One of the 6 teams was Clemson. Take Clemson out of the equation and draws are almost dead even.

[Dr. Tact]

Well to start they play different positions. But you really can’t answer that question without knowing how many of the 758 possession led to goals and how many of the 358 possessions led to goals.

Yes that it fairly obvious...

Their positions being different leads to more of a value for JW, IMO. She is running full field while the other player is not. You could eliminate the CTO stat from the comparison, but the value of a 2 way middie (OP) is more than a specialist who sometimes, over her career, is on the attack. I get your point on the 400 draws that could have led to points for that team, but, I'd rather have the 2 way M that is the core of a team that doesn't just win draws.

To be fair to JW, this comparison is against a generational specialist. Who is the better all around player? Who is the better player for team success? those are the questions with this comparison...

I apologize in advance. I am biased. One, I love Middies, and two, I had one who played with JW.

[edit] I am not going to say the name of he who is not spoken about, but as he championed, draw controls are not always a measure of team (nor individual) success. Give me a 2-way Middie over a Part-time FOGO/Attack every day.

Your point is well taken but within a team framework one size doesn’t fit everything.

You will not get an argument from me regarding middies.

But you did originally ask who is more valuable…..I don’t think you can answer that without crunching a whole lot of useless data

I agree with you. The worth is in the eye of the beholder. I lean towards the M and not the DC/A, but anyone else can choose a different path.

I think my original comments were responding to Stat padding and morphed into a comparison of player vs player or team vs team. I took the bait on that one.

I stand behind my preference, even if they werent a teammate of #13.

[edit] youngest D has the role of FOGIN...Right at the top of scoring on her team, without being the 2-way M I love. Would I like to see her play both sides of the restraining line, absolutely...Do I think she is more valuable than the 2-way M that is near her O production, no.

[Bart]

Well to start they play different positions. But you really can’t answer that question without knowing how many of the 758 possession led to goals and how many of the 358 possessions led to goals.

Yes that it fairly obvious...

Their positions being different leads to more of a value for JW, IMO. She is running full field while the other player is not. You could eliminate the CTO stat from the comparison, but the value of a 2 way middie (OP) is more than a specialist who sometimes, over her career, is on the attack. I get your point on the 400 draws that could have led to points for that team, but, I'd rather have the 2 way M that is the core of a team that doesn't just win draws.

To be fair to JW, this comparison is against a generational specialist. Who is the better all around player? Who is the better player for team success? those are the questions with this comparison...

I apologize in advance. I am biased. One, I love Middies, and two, I had one who played with JW.

[edit] I am not going to say the name of he who is not spoken about, but as he championed, draw controls are not always a measure of team (nor individual) success. Give me a 2-way Middie over a Part-time FOGO/Attack every day.

Your point is well taken but within a team framework one size doesn’t fit everything.

You will not get an argument from me regarding middies.

But you did originally ask who is more valuable…..I don’t think you can answer that without crunching a whole lot of useless data

I agree with you. The worth is in the eye of the beholder. I lean towards the M and not the DC/A, but anyone else can choose a different path.

I think my original comments were responding to Stat padding and morphed into a comparison of player vs player or team vs team. I took the bait on that one.

I stand behind my preference, even if they werent a teammate of #13.

[edit] youngest D has the role of FOGIN...Right at the top of scoring on her team, without being the 2-way M I love. Would I like to see her play both sides of the restraining line, absolutely...Do I think she is more valuable than the 2-way M that is near her O production, no.

Your comments go hand in hand with the title of this thread. I have to agree and said the 2-way middie is going away. Just look at the players anointed “best” at the end of the year. I have no idea how youbcsn be the best college lacrosse player and not play on half the field. (Or have evidence you can play the other half….ie CT’s from redefending)

[Dr. Tact]

Your comments go hand in hand with the title of this thread. I have to agree and said the 2-way middie is going away. Just look at the players anointed “best” at the end of the year. I have no idea how youbcsn be the best college lacrosse player and not play on half the field. (Or have evidence you can play the other half….ie CT’s from redefending)

Good to know we agree, I think.

[watcherinthewoods]

Well, defying the trend, two outstanding two-way middies lead Albany in the biggest upset in round 1 of the NCAA tourney. Check out the stat lines for #23 and #33 for the Danes. Holy smokes, talk about work rate!